(L) Girls und Panzer

[willx]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Black Hawk Down really captures my sentiments perfectly: "It's about the men next to you, and that's it. That's all it is.""

Hey now, Black Hawk Down is widely regarded as a complete military and intelligence failure. The dispatch of the convoy to the first downed helicopter was also a complete disaster.

Let me put this in simple terms:
Miho upon seeing an incident occurs, as person in command, leaves her post and jumps to action herself --
A) The situation was dangerous (and rehashed via facts and counter-fact below) -- if they could not get out themselves then she would not be able to assist simply by herself and was therefore derelict of her own actual duty
B) The situation was not dangerous and therefore her actions were completely unnecessary -- which means that she did not remain calm in a time of crisis and failed as a leader

So, a military analog, is:
-Platoon leader forsakes their command role and runs out to help someone that may or may not be in danger and leaves their platoon leaderless!

How about a sports analog:
-QB runs back preparing to throw, sees one of his linesmen completely demolished and instead of continuing to play runs over to see if he can help?

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

So you dismiss every bit of evidence presented to you, no matter what.

Do you not notice that you are also dismissing every bit of evidence presented to you no matter what?

Look folks, people keep falling into differing tangents and drawing weak analogies to instances of "safety first!" "protect your comrades!" "ideals!" -- but these are not perfect analogies. Getting led into a strawman argument comparison is not what it's about. The question is this: was Miho's response based on the fact of the matter reasonable? Beyond a doubt? Did she perform her duty? Did she fail to perform her duty?

tl;dr -- Stop getting emotional. It irritates me and I don't like feeling any emotion of any kind. Calm, cold, rational analysis shows that this young girl may not have made the right decision. People's opinions of an ancillary character (Shiho) based on their personal interpretations of that one instance have people acting uncivilized to actual human beings. Think about that, opinions about a show have got people acting poorly, and irrationally, towards other real persons.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by willx

Hey now, Black Hawk Down is widely regarded as a complete military and intelligence failure. The dispatch of the convoy to the first downed helicopter was also a complete disaster.

I was referring to the sentiments expressed by the movie, which pretty much sum up the infantry mindset.

And yes, I'm well aware of the problems with the raid - I've see the movie multiple times, and I make it a point to read the book at least once a year. I was referring to the sentiments expressed.

This is the fun-vee, the humdrum-vee is over there.

Let me put this in simple terms:
Miho upon seeing an incident occurs, as person in command, leaves her post and jumps to action herself --
A) The situation was dangerous (and rehashed via facts and counter-fact below) -- if they could not get out themselves then she would not be able to assist simply by herself and was therefore derelict of her own actual duty
B) The situation was not dangerous and therefore her actions were completely unnecessary -- which means that she did not remain calm in a time of crisis and failed as a leader

Again, since IXJac said it better than me, I'm reposting his words, bolded for emphasis:


It's not even close to a difficult decision. You stop the exercise and ensure the safety of the crew in the tank in the river. Soldiers can and have died when their vehicle fell into water, so it's a complete no-brainer. Anyone who would continue a mere exercise and forgo the chance to ensure their safety has their priorities badly out of whack. In the Canadian Forces, they would be charged for negligence, and probably have criminal proceedings brought against them if any of the fallen tank's crew actually died while they continued to play war.

And whether your assistance is actually physically needed is completely irrelevant. You do not have a crystal ball, you do not know whether your assistance is required. At worst, they do need assistance, and you are removing their chance of survival. At best, by continuing the exercise you are distracting others now dealing with serious real life problems, with your silly exercise bullshit. You stop training (this goes for BOTH sides in a force on force) and stand by to render any assistance to those in need as required.

So, a military analog, is:
-Platoon leader forsakes their command role and runs out to help someone that may or may not be in danger and leaves their platoon leaderless!

How about a sports analog:
-QB runs back preparing to throw, sees one of his linesmen completely demolished and instead of continuing to play runs over to see if he can help?

I acknowledge that Miho's actions were not completely perfect. However, I think you have ignored what I've posted about her actions being in line with how a professional 1st world force operates. Her execution might be off, but she was also in the best position to render assistance - which, as the anime shows, she was right.

You're also implicitly assuming that her radio operator is too incompetant to report the situation and advise Black Forest forces of the change in paradigm.

Do you not notice that you are also dismissing every bit of evidence presented to you no matter what?

Look folks, people keep falling into differing tangents and drawing weak analogies to instances of "safety first!" "protect your comrades!" "ideals!" -- but these are not perfect analogies. Getting led into a strawman argument comparison is not what it's about. The question is this: was Miho's response based on the fact of the matter reasonable? Beyond a doubt? Did she perform her duty? Did she fail to perform her duty?

Can't say for the others, but I've really felt that the roots of the issue were the differing paradigms and beliefs held by Shiho and Miho. On one hand, we have Shiho's Victory at all Cost paradigm, which includes sacrificing a tank crew with a very real risk of death or serious injury, for the sake of a winner's trophy. On the other hand we have Miho, who prioritizes her crew/subordinates over victory.

As for the questions you pose, I'd personally opine that her actions were reasonable, and that given that she saved the crew, I'd count that as a positive. As to performing her duty, that depends on how you would describe her duty: is it her duty to win the tournament, or is it also her duty to be responsible for her team members? As IXJac noted, any Canadian Forces member who'd ignore the crew would be up on charges. We can draw inferences from there.

Miho performed her duty towards her subordinates. The only thing I'd add is that she should have really broadcasted some kind of emergency alert instruction, or a notification, though if one were charitable, one might hope that her crew would have enough initiative to do the same thing.

[willx]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Again, since IXJac said it better than me, I'm reposting his words, bolded for emphasis:

Looks like I need to address this point by point. This is not a no-brainer. If it was then there wouldn't be this conversation. Keep in mind that the people you are discussing (remember, discussion, not debate) are likely (maybe!) for all intents and purposes fully grown adults with jobs, education and perhaps leadership roles in various organizations. Let's not presume anyone is stupid here or is missing something obvious.

So, here's IXJac's statement above:
1) They can stop the exercise! -- No, they cannot, they were in a match. They lacked that authority. I don't even know if they could call for a stop to the match but the match based on the portrayal in the show was not stopped. This was not their decision to make. The Senshado organization did not stop the match. Either 1) because there was no real danger, 2) the danger is considered acceptable or 3) Senshado matches are simply not stopped?

2) Because of #1 above, people are attributing to Shiho and Miho respectively "Ruthlessness/Bloodthirst" and "Heroism" -- but why is this applied to the characters when they have no control over the situation? If anything the factum is that it is the "Senshado" organization that did not stop the match. The premise people assume is that people were in danger .. and even if they were or were not, Miho still acted recklessly as my statements above and previous (including factual discussions on tank hatches, underwater cars, etc.) As for "crystal ball" - this is addressed somewhat in IXJac's paragraph 2, which I will now address in point #3.

3) You don't know if you can help but you should go see anyways! -- Whoa, hold on there partner, as the leader of the platoon you must make calm impartial decisions. Running into help in an unnecessary circumstance will -- 1) disrupt the chain of command and 2) could potentially make things worse. From what we saw portrayed, Miho, upon seeing the tank go under jumped out of her tank and dived into the water. Her crew did nothing. No one else did anything. She left the chain of command absolutely paralyzed and dove underwater. Do I need to finish my thought? She could have drowned? She could have added to the lives needing to be rescued? One tank already fell into the water .. her abandoning her tank could have made the situation much much much worse. All we can assess is what we are shown on screen and any person looking at it coldly and dispassionately can see it was not decision making and leadership at it's finest.

I am not debating ideals here folks -- I am discussing the facts of the matter as portrayed on a screen. It is unclear from the footage and dialogue that Miho was effective at all. If anything, based on my recollection, the only time I heard that Miho actually "saved" anyone was one of her current teammates at Oorai saying: "I'm sure they're happy you tried to save them"

tl;dr -- People are forming opinions about Shiho and Miho's personality based on their own presumptions of this incident but failing to comprehend that the connection is tenuous at best or if seen from a different perspective then those opinions would be invalidated. All I am doing is reviewing facts and footage with a critical eye. I will admit here that I could very well be wrong. The next episodes may show Shiho standing up proclaiming: "Victory at all cost! I don't care if you girls die!" -- but somehow I doubt that. Same with Miho being a perfect depiction of a hero. A calm collected hero or a frail emotional young girl?

[Wild Goose]

Well, I'm glad that this disagreement and discussion is still cordial

Originally Posted by willx

So, here's IXJac's statement above:
1) They can stop the exercise!! -- No, they cannot, they were in a match. They lacked that authority. I don't even know if they could call for a stop to the match but the match based on the portrayal in the show was not stopped. This was not their decision to make. The Senshado organization did not stop the match. Either 1) because there was no real danger, 2) the danger is considered acceptable or 3) Senshado matches are simply not stopped?

Y'know, I'd actually forgotten that. This does, however, raise certain questions on how senshado matches are run, because as we see in other sporting events, like football, or Formula One, as soon as there's an accident a temporary halt is called, though it does take some time to get things settled down.

If I really wanted to be mean, I could theorize that the refs would have called a halt to the match, but Katyusha shot the flag tank just before the time out was called, so her win slipped by due to luck.

2) Because of #1 above, people are attributing to Shiho and Miho respectively "Ruthlessness/Bloodthirst" and "Heroism" -- but why is this applied to the characters when they have no control over the situation? If anything the factum is that it is the "Senshado" organization that did not stop the match. The premise people assume is that people were in danger .. and even if they were or were not, Miho still acted recklessly as my statements above and previous (including factual discussions on tank hatches, underwater cars, etc.) As for "crystal ball" - this is addressed somewhat in IXJac's paragraph 2, which I will now address in point #3.

You're partially right in that #1 is influencing viewers, but also note that later at home Shiho strongly disagrees with Miho's choice to prioritise her subordinates over securing victory, and emphasises that whole victory at any cost mindset. Like I said, this is a paradigm that encourages ruthlessness.

3) You don't know if you can help but you should go see anyways!! -- Whoa, hold on there partner, as the leader of the platoon you must make calm impartial decisions. Running into help in an unnecessary circumstance will -- 1) disrupt the chain of command and 2) could potentially make things worse. From what we saw portrayed, Miho, upon seeing the tank go under jumped out of her tank and dived into the water. Her crew did nothing. No one else did anything. She left the chain of command absolutely paralyzed and dove underwater. Do I need to finish my thought? She could have drowned? She could have added to the lives needing to be rescued? One tank already fell into the water .. her abandoning her tank could have made the situation much much much worse. All we can assess is what we are shown on screen and any person looking at it coldly and dispassionately can see it was not decision making and leadership at it's finest.

I think there are several points of failure you've brought up, which I agree on: Miho should have made a "noduff" call (as the Brits term it), before going to help, and she should have had her crew report to the refs on the sitrep. On the other hand, following her, we can't exactly say that the chain of command was paralyzed. The flag tank holds position, true, but one of the trailing tanks immediately moves forward and tries to overtake it to cover it - it's just bad luck for them that Katyusha showed up first and nailed the flag tank. That doesn't seem like they're too paralyzed. Again, as we follow Miho, we can't be sure that her crew didn't report the emergency to the refs. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, afterall. ;D

I am not debating ideals here folks -- I am discussing the facts of the matter as portrayed on a screen. It is unclear from the footage and dialogue that Miho was effective at all. If anything, based on my recollection, the only time I heard that Miho actually "saved" anyone was one of her current teammates at Oorai saying: "I'm sure they're happy you tried to save them."

You're forgetting that same girl who she saved coming up to her and thanking her for the rescue. That's pretty persuasive evidence that Miho was right to act as she did.

That said, I admit that my approach was on the different paradigms, as I saw that to be the root causes. *shrugs*

tl;dr -- People are forming opinions about Shiho and Miho's personality based on their own presumptions of this incident but failing to comprehend that the connection is tenuous at best or that if interpreted differently then those opinions would be invalidated. I will admit here that I could very well be wrong. The next episodes may show Shiho standing up proclaiming: "Victory at all cost! I don't care if you girls die!" -- but somehow I doubt that. Same with Miho being a perfect depiction of a hero.

I don't really think it's that cut and dried as to whether they're heroes and villains, but again the way I saw this issue was a clash of paradigms. And not whether a hatch could be opened or not; that's a symptom. A cough, if you will, while the underlying paradigm is the lungs weakened by asthma.

Also, I must say, it's been a pleasure to have such a cordial discussion. ^_^

[LoweGear]

Now for a subject that's a bit more delectable. Okay, make that a lot more...

YouTube

https://youtu.be/vk4rjxVmAFQ

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Now for a subject that's a bit more delectable. Okay, make that a lot more...

YouTube

https://youtu.be/vk4rjxVmAFQ

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

ONORE LOWE!!! Just when the-

...whoa. Whoa. The cake is not a lie. That's actually pretty sweet. Pun intended.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by willx

Let me put this in simple terms:
Miho upon seeing an incident occurs, as person in command, leaves her post and jumps to action herself --
A) The situation was dangerous (and rehashed via facts and counter-fact below) -- if they could not get out themselves then she would not be able to assist simply by herself and was therefore derelict of her own actual duty
B) The situation was not dangerous and therefore her actions were completely unnecessary -- which means that she did not remain calm in a time of crisis and failed as a leader

Let's not limit the variations:
How about C: The situation was in-between A&B, so they couldn't get out by themselves but if someone helps them they can.
Or D: They couldn't get out for another reason, but it doesn't mean someone (even one) can't save them.
Or E (which is probably closest to the truth): The situation was indeterminate and thus it is not possible for her to evaluate how much she can help. However, it is clear that if she can help and she delays helping, the overall chances of her help being useful goes down.

Of course, it can be agreed that she did not take the best action. Certainly I agree that the chances she'll be able to do something will be massively increased if for example she ordered her whole platoon off their tanks and into the river (at the cost they'll also be put at some risk, admittedly). But then, no one pretends that Miho is the perfect commander, and even less so at that stage.

So, a military analog, is:
-Platoon leader forsakes their command role and runs out to help someone that may or may not be in danger and leaves their platoon leaderless!

If he "may or may not" be in danger, he is. Danger is risk of harm.

was Miho's response based on the fact of the matter reasonable?

Perfectly unless you have value systems great deviant from contemporary norm. Even if you assume the chance she may make a difference to be oh, 1%, I think most people can agree human lives are at least worth 100 times a victory at a high-school level competition.

It arguably isn't the best move. The best move would have been to use her platoon's (now only a section) manpower as well. But it is reasonable.

Did she perform her duty

Let's define her duty first. If it is similar to stereotypical military, it'll be "Mission and the men", and most modern militaries think if the mission is small enough, the men can come first.

The smallness of the mission aside (it isn't even like Kuromorimine will fold up due to this loss), it is further cut by at least three possibilities:

1) At that point, she can stay in the tank, and the mission will still fail (based on the on-screen performance I think that's what will happen). In such a case, the only thing to do is to save what you might still be able to save ... the men.
2) In the opposite direction, she can leave the tank and the immediate task (fighting off the oncoming T-34/85s) would still get done. KMM is supposed to be the elite school and the enemy is only dead ahead. Is it too much to expect that if they aren't going to leave the tanks in an attempt to save their comrades, they can still take the correct actions without her intervention? Of course, it is more conventional to have other people go and do the "men" part, but duty is still fully served if the mission is done.
3) She can ignore her sinking tank and successfully fight off the Pravdan tanks, thus fulfilling her part of the mission if not her duty to the men, but it can all be rendered meaningless because KMM loses the larger battle. Go to 1.
=

Originally Posted by willx

So, here's IXJac's statement above:
1) They can stop the exercise! -- No, they cannot, they were in a match. They lacked that authority. I don't even know if they could call for a stop to the match but the match based on the portrayal in the show was not stopped. This was not their decision to make.

They could ignore the running "exercise" and start rescuing. Sure, they'll lose, but that's it.

The Senshado organization did not stop the match. Either 1) because there was no real danger,

Pretty unlikely. Putting bets on the supposed merits of side hatches seem extremely thin.

2) the danger is considered acceptable or 3) Senshado matches are simply not stopped?

Or 4) if you gave them more time, they will agree it is unacceptable, but the Senshado organization has a slow decision making process in these things. This version is IMO kindly of implied in Ep9.

3) You don't know if you can help but you should go see anyways! -- Whoa, hold on there partner, as the leader of the platoon you must make calm impartial decisions. Running into help in an unnecessary circumstance will -- 1) disrupt the chain of command

And the consequences of that will be no worse than losing a game when they could have won.

2) could potentially make things worse. From what we saw portrayed, Miho, upon seeing the tank go under jumped out of her tank and dived into the water. Her crew did nothing.

Well, if Miho deserves some criticism, it is here. How can that crew be so helpless just because the commander ran off? Miho obviously needs to train them better!

No one else did anything.

The lag tank was moving up.

She left the chain of command absolutely paralyzed and dove underwater. Do I need to finish my thought? She could have drowned? She could have added to the lives needing to be rescued?

Let me grant that there is a non-zero possibility that she could have drowned. On the other hand, Miho is clearly quite a good swimmer (it didn't look real elegant but she was clothed and did reach the tank against the current), so perhaps it was negligible. It could be a valid reason why she didn't use the section's manpower - the waves were relatively high and she was the best (maybe even the only) swimmer.

One tank already fell into the water .. her abandoning her tank could have made the situation much much much worse. All we can assess is what we are shown on screen and any person looking at it coldly and dispassionately can see it was not decision making and leadership at it's finest.

I will grant there is room for saying there are more optimal variants in the big decision to save them. The variant to not save them however, is unconvincing.

I am not debating ideals here folks -- I am discussing the facts of the matter as portrayed on a screen. It is unclear from the footage and dialogue that Miho was effective at all. If anything, based on my recollection, the only time I heard that Miho actually "saved" anyone was one of her current teammates at Oorai saying: "I'm sure they're happy you tried to save them"

Thanks can be for effort rather than result, but to be fair, in Ep10, Yukari did say "仲間を助け*た*西住…", using the past tense. If we take it literally, Miho did defy all the odds and saved them.

But then, I don't think it is critically important whether she did or not. Even if she did, we can still look at the odds and say it was still a bad decision and she got lucky. And failure similarly may be no more than bad luck.

I think the show deliberately shies from making it rock-clear, and inserts a few lines to imply she did to counter the natural doubt that such a petite little girl could have effected the rescue, aiming it to leave it close to 50-50 in the viewerships' minds.

Same with Miho being a perfect depiction of a hero. A calm collected hero or a frail emotional young girl?

Is there anyone that sees Miho as a "perfect depiction of a hero"? The show would have been much less amusing if she was!

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Now for a subject that's a bit more delectable. Okay, make that a lot more...

YouTube

https://youtu.be/vk4rjxVmAFQ

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

The dedication is impressive. I don't think I can bear to eat it - it is so well made.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

So you dismiss every bit of evidence presented to you, no matter what. You have obviously encased your opinion on this in concrete, and there is no point in bothering with reasoned debates. I think I may have to put you on my ignore list just so I can keep coming into this thread.

Because just about every bit of "evidence" presented has no application to the situation at hand. The hatch was not as difficult to open as people think it to be (and history proved that it was possible, since those who drowned did so because they either didn't get out for the sake of the mission or had other problems that was not present in GuP), and exercises standards are different (JGSDF and ROKA do not just stop an exercise because there "might" be danger as opposed to actual danger to lives). Basically, you re the one dismissing/ignoring evidence without actual feedback.

And really, if you're petty enough to not be able to back up your argument without resorting to insults such as bloodlust and sociopath first, this might have been a civil discussion without all the heat generated. You're just running away from the argument you started. Irresponsible, really.

[Wild Goose]

Y'know, I never really did get an answer to this question. If being in a tank that is submerged in a river that is fast flowing, and said tank is being swept away - if that situation is not directly life threatening, then what is? I'm honestly puzzled and curious as to how you would define a life threatening event.

That said, honesty compels me to admit that I'm sensitive to this issue, on account of how when I was 10, I was nearly swept away in a river, and very nearly drowned. No PTSD or anything like that, but I did wince painfully when I saw that tank go under.

Also, girls? Can we please try and cool heads? It's not doing any of us favors, getting all worked up like this. Especially when some of us really need to sleep, but are now a little too worked up to do so.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Y'know, I never really did get an answer to this question. If being in a tank that is submerged in a river that is fast flowing, and said tank is being swept away - if that situation is not directly life threatening, then what is?

Miho being able to swim clearly showed it was not a fast flowing river, thus not as life threatening as people make it out to be.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Miho being able to swim clearly showed it was not a fast flowing river, thus not as life threatening as people make it out to be.

... you know, there's just so much wrong with this statement that I don't really know where to begin, so I'm just going to call it a night and continue tomorrow.

Also,

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Then let's stop pussyfooting around and pretending people can necessarily get out of sinking tanks by themselves without help, or that this is not a life-threatening situation. Admit at least a few lives could probably have been saved with more contemporary values, and then declare righteously that for the sake of the values of these old martial arts those few lives can be sacrificed. Because that's what will happen if those old values hold sway.

You never did give ark a reply to his statement here. Just pointing that out, before I go, as a Parthian Shot.

[willx]

Overall the reason why this is focusing on the "danger" of the situation or the "potential danger" as depicted is whether Miho acted appropriately. I don't think anyone here truly believes that in a true life or death situation we would condone not providing assistance. [Unless we are shown that historically in Senshado competitions people die and it is deemed culturally to be an acceptable risk in this world -- then it would mean our fundamental value system doesn't apply to the world at large, which does not appear to be the case] If we ever do truly come to the conclusion that it was truly truly dangerous, then we also must question the Senshado organization for why 1) the battle wasn't stopped (could be timing?) and 2) why the resulting win by Pravda was not annulled based on the circumstances.

That said, applying all our rules of reality to this anime is kind of flawed thinking, they are shooting "fake shells" at each other but no one ever has concussions? No smoke inhalation? Gunpowder burns? Explosions? A commander standing exposed outside of the hatch while fire is going on is OK? If we consider the potential of Miho getting struck directly by a "fake shell" being acceptable I'm not sure you can attribute the same amount of danger of real life situations to this show at all. That may be why we have such divergent views on the danger of the situation. There is no clear real life analogy here folks.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Let's not limit the variations:

Or E (which is probably closest to the truth): The situation was indeterminate and thus it is not possible for her to evaluate how much she can help. However, it is clear that if she can help and she delays helping, the overall chances of her help being useful goes down.

Let's kill that last sentence and I will vehemently agree. I don't think that part was clear at all.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Of course, it can be agreed that she did not take the best action. Certainly I agree that the chances she'll be able to do something will be massively increased if for example she ordered her whole platoon off their tanks and into the river (at the cost they'll also be put at some risk, admittedly). But then, no one pretends that Miho is the perfect commander, and even less so at that stage.

Okay, and we also agree here, so she didn't take the best action. I'm not sure about you but any athlete, martial artist or soldier would be reprimanded then, no? Kicked off the team?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

They could ignore the running "exercise" and start rescuing. Sure, they'll lose, but that's it.

See my first sentence. Yes, I agree if it was determined to be truly dangerous then they should start rescuing -- they all should have started rescuing. In an organized manner. Simultaneously, Pravda should have stopped shooting! Imagine if they had dropped another tank onto the sinking tank!?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

But then, I don't think it is critically important whether she did or not. Even if she did, we can still look at the odds and say it was still a bad decision and she got lucky. And failure similarly may be no more than bad luck.

It is critically important to determine whether it was actually dangerous and she actually managed to help and whether her help was necessary -- because the point in question here is what the situation was and whether she acted appropriately. Based on the answer one arrives at to that question is how individuals are then projecting that to the greater question(s) at hand.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Is there anyone that sees Miho as a "perfect depiction of a hero"? The show would have been much less amusing if she was!

I'm being a tad facetious since everyone appeared to be laying into Shiho and the Nishizumi School without acknowledging any of Miho's obvious failures and weaknesses.

Anyways, I'm not cherry-picking my responses to you and suspect neither are you cherry-picking my points you are responding to of mine, ultimately though the question is not based on a fundamental difference in ideology but what we as 3rd persons are viewing a (fictional) situation and doing an evaluation of likely, desired and optimal outcomes and the actions of those participants therein. We disagree based on differing facts -- this will be resolved either with more information or will be left as a question for the ages.

[Wild Goose]

I should kinda point out that the implications of Little Army are a little troubling; a Black Forest tank was in trouble, opposing team flag went to the rescue, Maho shot them and won.

In this case, Black Forest tank is again in trouble, flag tank's TC goes to the rescue, snd Pravda takes the shot for the win.

Might Pravda be assuming that Black Forest is deliberately generating incidents to underhandedly bait opposing teams? Afterall that's one conspiracy-laden interpretation of Little Army; we know that isn't the case, but other teams would surely speculate and wonder.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

... you know, there's just so much wrong with this statement that I don't really know where to begin, so I'm just going to call it a night and continue tomorrow.

Might be that having been in several accidents before, I tend to have a less disturbable personality.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Then let's stop pussyfooting around and pretending people can necessarily get out of sinking tanks by themselves without help, or that this is not a life-threatening situation. Admit at least a few lives could probably have been saved with more contemporary values, and then declare righteously that for the sake of the values of these old martial arts those few lives can be sacrificed. Because that's what will happen if those old values hold sway.

I do not recognize the situation as life-threatening short of an incompetent crew. Therefore, whatever you say in the statement above has no application in my view. If the situation was actually life-threatening, then of course by the honor code of martial arts rescue should be attempted. The problem here is that we have different understandings of the situation and therefore have different boundaries around where we select our actions.

[Sumeragi]

Food for thought: Why does Shiho have such a strict view of Senshado? She is probably related to Nishizumi Kojiro (or this world's equivalent), a tank hero of the Sino-Japanese war, but that doesn't really explain why she is as "ruthless" as she is portrayed to be. Anyone have thoughts on this?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by willx

Overall the reason why this is focusing on the "danger" of the situation or the "potential danger" as depicted is whether Miho acted appropriately. I don't think anyone here truly believes that in a true life or death situation we would condone not providing assistance. [Unless we are shown that historically in Senshado competitions people die and it is deemed culturally to be an acceptable risk in this world -- then it would mean our fundamental value system doesn't apply to the world at large, which does not appear to be the case] If we ever do truly come to the conclusion that it was truly truly dangerous, then we also must question the Senshado organization for why 1) the battle wasn't stopped (could be timing?) and 2) why the resulting win by Pravda was not annulled based on the circumstances.

That said, applying all our rules of reality to this anime is kind of flawed thinking, they are shooting "fake shells" at each other but no one ever has concussions? No smoke inhalation? Gunpowder burns? Explosions? A commander standing exposed outside of the hatch while fire is going on is OK? If we consider the potential of Miho getting struck directly by a "fake shell" being acceptable I'm not sure you can attribute the same amount of danger of real life situations to this show at all. That may be why we have such divergent views on the danger of the situation. There is no clear real life analogy here folks.



Let's kill that last sentence and I will vehemently agree. I don't think that part was clear at all.

It's actually crystal. Unless you believe there was an actual rescue crew just around the corner and Miho could best help by staying out of the way, she had nothing to gain by waiting.

Let's say I see someone choking on his food. I'm not trained in the Heimlich maneuver, or any kind of rescue thing, so it's questionable if I could help. It's also possible the actual danger is nil, and the guy will be fine on his own. None of that changes the fact that the more I wait, the more likely I won't be able to help because the guy will be too dead for it. Maybe he's doomed anyway, or safe anyway, but assuming he is between those two extremes, the earlier I attempt to help, the more likely I am to succeed.

Okay, and we also agree here, so she didn't take the best action. I'm not sure about you but any athlete, martial artist or soldier would be reprimanded then, no? Kicked off the team?

For not taking the very best action? If you had to kick out anyone who ever fell short of perfection, there'd be no one left to play.

Besides, you're reaching. Miho may not have done the very best thing to rescue her team mates, but according to her detractors, what she did wrong was to try at all. To put her comrades' lives ahead of the game. Her supporters, OTOH, will argue that it doesn't matter if, a posteriori, we conclude that her help was unnecessary or if it was impossible to help to start with. What matters is that, based on what information she had, she had to try.

That's the crux of the disagreement.

[Ithekro]

One wonders how many of these girls can swim.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by willx

@Anh_Minh -- I thought of how to respond to you but I am going to do so simply with thus:

Look at the tone you're taking with me simply because we have divergent views?

I really don't see that there's a problem with my tone. Flawed understanding of the English language? Different standards of what's acceptable? I don't know, but I just don't see why you're crying foul, here.

You've also hopped into the conversation,

I may not have been the most active, but it's hardly my first post on the subject.

picked very specific niche statements to respond to that were made in response to someone else

Oh, sorry. Was this thread supposed to be a dialogue? Or a juxtaposition of such?

and have otherwise ignored the attempts to turn this conversation civil.

Again, I'm puzzled about this particular complaint. For that matter, I'm puzzled about the occasional self-congratulatory posts about how polite some of you are. I just don't see much difference between the alleged rude posts and alleged civil ones.

On top of that, you're making false analogies

And how is it false?

and trying to frame the discussion specific whilst underplaying any criticism.

I'm quite willing to admit what Miho did was suboptimal. I'm also saying it's not really a problem, or at least not why she's been taking flak.

What exactly do you think you are accomplishing?

What does any of us think we're accomplishing?

Do you really think this is constructive?

Yes? As much as internet discussions on anime ever are, anyway.

Your very first statement presumes I somehow miss something that is completely obvious to you but is apparently something I cannot possibly conceive of.

Yeah, because you said yourself it wasn't clear to you. Maybe you missed that "if" in arkhangelsk's sentence or something, but it is very clear that IF she can help, the window of opportunity in which she may do so can and will disappear pretty fast.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

For not taking the very best action? If you had to kick out anyone who ever fell short of perfection, there'd be no one left to play.

Besides, you're reaching. Miho may not have done the very best thing to rescue her team mates, but according to her detractors, what she did wrong was to try at all. To put her comrades' lives ahead of the game. Her supporters, OTOH, will argue that it doesn't matter if, a posteriori, we conclude that her help was unnecessary or if it was impossible to help to start with. What matters is that, based on what information she had, she had to try.

That's the crux of the disagreement.

Unnecessary help is just as dangerous as doing nothing, especially when there was no real need in the first place. Slamming those who think so as "sociopaths" is in itself that makes the whole "she should have helped" argument as illegitimate.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Unnecessary help is just as dangerous as doing nothing,

It can be, but it really depends on the circumstances. Here, well, it mostly depends on how well she can swim.

especially when there was no real need in the first place.

Well, if the situation was so... safe, there was no harm in having one more body in the water, was there?

Slamming those who think so as "sociopaths" is in itself that makes the whole "she should have helped" argument as illegitimate.

Except that Shiho didn't blame Miho for being an incompetent rescuer. Or even for allegedly losing her cool. She blames her for not placing her name above the lives of her comrades. For being unwilling to sacrifice them if it came down to it. Considering the circumstances, and I'm sorry if you find it offensive, but yeah, that's a viewpoint that sounds pretty sociopathic to me.