To Aru Majutsu no Index Light Novel Discussion (Archives)

[Rovert10]

Originally Posted by moridin84

As for Level 6, I assume that it is essentially something similar to an Angel. The stronger an esper gets the more like an angel-like they appear, I doubt that's a coincidence. Especially since this is only true for espers, not magicians who follow a different "path to power".

Accelerator in awkened form already hits the power of an Angel. He's still a level 5 though not level 6.

Level 6 is where you essentially become GOD. Level 6 is full understanding of the system and a higher plane of existence.

Magic seems to have already reached that point with Fiamma becoming an existance higher than God or the Majin Odin.

[Javiersansano]

Originally Posted by Rovert10

Accelerator in awkened form already hits the power of an Angel. He's still a level 5 though not level 6.

Level 6 is where you essentially become GOD. Level 6 is full understanding of the system and a higher plane of existence.

Magic seems to have already reached that point with Fiamma becoming an existance higher than God or the Majin Odin.

Please, stop right where you are. Fiamma did reach La persona superiore a dio, and attcked Touma when the latter had already lost his rigt arm. The Invisible Thing bysected Fiamma attack, and when Fiamma detected its presence, he almost shitted his pants out of fear.

Othinus voiced her dissappointment, mocked and crushed The Invisible Thing.

How is it that La Persona Superiore A Dio > Majin Othinus?

[leukrota]

Originally Posted by Rovert10

Magic seems to have already reached that point with Fiamma becoming an existence higher than God.

That's what he thought, but dunno about that...

Drunk with power =/= higher than god... unless it's a pun I guess.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by Rovert10

Accelerator in awakened form already hits the power of an Angel. He's still a level 5 though not level 6.

He fought alongside Fuse=KAZAKIRI against Gabriel and was unable to defeat him until Acqua interfered.

[desrtsku]

^ He wasn't awakened at that time ... He was awakened when he stopped Fiamma's life-wiping strike.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

She would be able to give someone any power she wanted at any time she wanted and she would be able to rob someone of any power she wanted at any place she wanted. If she wanted to, she could increase the number of Level 5s or she could strip any opposing esper, even the Number One known as Accelerator, of their Personal Realities and then kill them while they were defenseless.

Quoted from the Light Novel itself.

She can even affect Accelerator.

Angelerator =/= Accelerator

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Why not? It's not like she's giving them her juice to grow.

-_- ... just like how a human engineer can't create a godlike omniscient supercomputer, just like how Aureolus can't create a vampire even though he can technically do whatever he can think of ; a simple lv5 would never be able to emulate something beyond them, something they don't even know, something they can't reach or even comprehend, something so big it's comparable to God's intelligence unless they have God's intelligence themselves.
Seriously if she can create a level 6 I'm pretty sure that person from vol 22 would have screamed it all over the place, already.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

Angelerator =/= Accelerator

Because Accelerator walks around with wings all the time now.

It's not like he turns it off.

Originally Posted by desrtsku

-_- ... just like how a human engineer can't create a godlike omniscient supercomputer, just like how Aureolus can't create a vampire even though he can technically do whatever he can think of ; a simple lv5 would never be able to emulate something beyond them, something they don't even know, something they can't reach or even comprehend, something so big it's comparable to God's intelligence unless they have God's intelligence themselves.
Seriously if she can create a level 6 I'm pretty sure that person from vol 22 would have screamed it all over the place, already.

But she would not be just a simple Level 5, if there is even such a thing as a simple Level 5.

[desrtsku]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Because Accelerator walks around with wings all the time now.

It's not like he turns it off.

I don't understand anymore, let me sleep already ...

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

But she would not be just a simple Level 5, if there is even such a thing as a simple Level 5.

A simple level 5 ... I'm not sure if that's a false friend or not so I'll use the term a mere level 5 instead to be more accurate. But either way, the gap between a God and something that isn't even an Angel isn't something you can fill by being a bit "special".

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by desrtsku

^ He wasn't awakened at that time ... He was awakened when he stopped Fiamma's life-wiping strike.

Oh right you mean then.

He was certainly much stronger at that time, that doesn't mean he measures up to an angel.

[Ilidsor]

I think that if Takitsubo was capable of making level 6s than Aliester would have had a much tighter hold on her than he did. He did go ahead and let her progress get messed up by that drug. If all she can do is make a bunch of level 5s than it makes more sense for him to not control her so much (as far as we know Aliester doesn't need any other level 5s for his plans although the other higher ups do).

[Rovert10]

Originally Posted by moridin84

Oh right you mean then.

He was certainly much stronger at that time, that doesn't mean he measures up to an angel.

Regardless reaching level 6 is becoming something much more than an Angel.

This is noted back in volume 3.

Spoiler for Volume 3 Quote:

“System?”

“That is the term for one who is not a god yet reaches the will of the heavens. Our goal is something beyond Level 5. We humans do not understand the truth of this world. However, that makes things simple. If someone who has a status above that of a human appeared, that person would be able to understand god’s response.”

“…”

Index’s movements stopped.

She recognized what she had just heard. Kabbalah had the concept of the Sephirot tree. It was a diagram with 10 levels that divided up the positions of humans, angels, and god. And on that Sephirot tree, the crucial position of god was nowhere to be found.

Ain Soph Aur, Ain Soph, Ain.

000, 00, 0.

As god’s territory could not be understood by humans and the concept could not be expressed by humans, it was not shown on the Sephirot tree.

Even in Magic, God's place is not defined as noted by Index. That's where religion would come into play.
However Level 6 would be Science's way of reaching there.

[cleed]

On the behalf of someone on /a/ can anybody here at least try to answer some of these questions? No theories please just what has been taken from the story.

Spoiler for ?:

How Kihara's punch even work?
Why Aleister even want espers when magic is clearly superior?
How an awakening works?
Why Aleister needs Aiwass?
Why Othinus prefered Fräulein over Kakine's method?
What was Misaki doing at TouMAN's highschool?
What is TouMAN's past?
Where is Full-tuning?
What is Accelerator's true name?
What Laura is up to?
Why Acamedy City's rumors are created so fast?
Who is behind the rumors's site?
How does Gunha powers even work?
Who is the 6th level 5?
Who are the remaining saints?
What is the deal with TouMAN's right hand?
What are the Kihara/AC planning for Takitsubo?
What Misaki wants with a Misaka imouto?
What is EXTERIOR?
What Aleister and Gensei wants to do with SYSTEM?
Did Baba Yoshio ever escaped his fate?
What happened with Shinobu?
How strong Aogami actually is?
Why parents keep allowing their children to go live in a place so dangerous as Academy City?
Why we couldn't see or never heard about Endymion before? It's a fucking huge space elevator, what is the excuse for it never appearing?
What is the deal with Uiharu's flowers above her head? Why she doesn't know about them?
Why Saten, an unimportant level 0 character, keeps stealing Misaka's show?
Who the heck is Himegami?
What is Ollerus's past with Othinus?
Why Thor is so crazy?
Why a Kihara is so smart?
Who was the previous Imagine Breaker user?
Why Index just doesn't use her magic to make food or at least some money?
Why are magicians so much full of angsty?
Why was Misaka WORST even made? What is her purpose?
Why, why, why....

[Ilidsor]

I answered all the non-rude ones

Spoiler for ?:

How Kihara's punch even work?

He reverses his punch at the last minute so that when Accelerator's power automatically reverses it it makes the punch hit him.

Why Aleister even want espers when magic is clearly superior?

He needs espers for his Artificial Heaven

How an awakening works?

Still don't know, obviously going to be revealed later

Why Aleister needs Aiwass?

Still don't know, obviously going to be revealed later

Why Othinus prefered Fräulein over Kakine's method?

What? This question makes no sense

What was Misaki doing at TouMAN's highschool?

Still don't know, obviously going to be revealed later

What is TouMAN's past?

Still don't know, obviously going to be revealed later

Where is Full-tuning?

Still don't know, obviously going to be revealed later

What is Accelerator's true name?

No idea.

What Laura is up to?

Still don't know, obviously going to be revealed later

Why Acamedy City's rumors are created so fast?

It's a city almost entirely made up of high school students and other kids. Do the math.

Who is behind the rumors's site?

There are a ton, a ton of people are behind them

How does Gunha powers even work?

Still don't know, obviously going to be revealed later

Who is the 6th level 5?

Still don't know, obviously going to be revealed later

Who are the remaining saints?

Still don't know, might be revealed later

What is the deal with TouMAN's right hand?

Still don't know, obviously going to be revealed later

What are the Kihara/AC planning for Takitsubo?

To make a ton of level 5s

What Misaki wants with a Misaka imouto?

Still don't know, obviously going to be revealed later

What is EXTERIOR?

Still don't know, obviously going to be revealed later

What Aleister and Gensei wants to do with SYSTEM?

Still don't know, obviously going to be revealed later

Did Baba Yoshio ever escaped his fate?

No way to know

What happened with Shinobu?

Who?

How strong Aogami actually is?

Still don't know, there's a theory he's the number six but it's just a theory

Why parents keep allowing their children to go live in a place so dangerous as Academy City?

Nobody knows it's so dangerous. The dark side of the city is very carefully kept underwraps

Why we couldn't see or never heard about Endymion before? It's a fucking huge space elevator, what is the excuse for it never appearing?

What is the deal with Uiharu's flowers above her head? Why she doesn't know about them?

It's a running gag

Why Saten, an unimportant level 0 character, keeps stealing Misaka's show?

Because she is popular.

Who the fuck is Himegami?
What is Ollerus's past with Othinus?

Still don't know, obviously going to be revealed later

Why Thor is so crazy?

Mad with power

Why a Kihara is so smart?

Read NT4, it/'s a long story

Who was the previous Imagine Breaker user?

Still don't know, if there even was one

Why Index just doesn't use her magic to make food or at least some money?

Index can't use magic.

Why are magicians so much full of angsty?

Magicians generally become magicians after a traumatic event.

Why was Misaka WORST even made? What is her purpose?

To mindscrew Accelerator

Why, why, why....

[kuroishinigami]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Why not? It's not like she's giving them her juice to grow.

IMO, it's because level 6 is just a hypothesis right now. No one knows what a level 6 is. If the requirement for being a level 6 is just AIM power, why is accel not a level 6 yet even though he's way ahead of the other level 5 after his power up? Even before that, there ever been an explanation on hiw they decide on the level? For all we know, it could be that the level is something Aleister decide based on how useful an esper is to his goal. If so, maybe level 6 is something that's out of reach from all the current esper until they think outside the box(something like the mix of science and new kind of magic probably?)

[Haigon]

Half of those questions don't have answers yet.

[Chaos2Frozen]

I'm pretty convinced those questions are just a troll attempt; as if coming from /a/ isn't a big enough hint.


I'll answer one question though- Aleister doesn't want espers to create an army, he wants them for their AIM... Magicians don't have AIM.

EDIT:

I'll answer another on since I'm in the mood- Othnius wanted a specimen that is untouched by magic and academy city science, naturally Kakine being an esper made by the city would not be ideal.

[Lulu Vie Britania]

Why do you say that Angelerator isn't a god and even has to god no relation though it was declared that Angelerator- "The One Who Wields the Power of God" ??
I don't understand your logic if it isn't difficult to you, explain to me.

And the next moment. You know that Accelerator partially studies magic unlike other espers (or learns about magic). He even has abilities to it. He obviously has potential to full understanding of the world as well as to formation by god. I think he not for nothing is the №1 esper. Kamachi will still give him a chance to develop. Maybe he will be able to easily use magic as well as esper abilities.

[Javiersansano]

Originally Posted by Rovert10

Regardless reaching level 6 is becoming something much more than an Angel.

This is noted back in volume 3.

Spoiler for Volume 3 Quote:

“System?”

“That is the term for one who is not a god yet reaches the will of the heavens. Our goal is something beyond Level 5. We humans do not understand the truth of this world. However, that makes things simple. If someone who has a status above that of a human appeared, that person would be able to understand god’s response.”

“…”

Index’s movements stopped.

She recognized what she had just heard. Kabbalah had the concept of the Sephirot tree. It was a diagram with 10 levels that divided up the positions of humans, angels, and god. And on that Sephirot tree, the crucial position of god was nowhere to be found.

Ain Soph Aur, Ain Soph, Ain.

000, 00, 0.

As god’s territory could not be understood by humans and the concept could not be expressed by humans, it was not shown on the Sephirot tree.

Even in Magic, God's place is not defined as noted by Index. That's where religion would come into play.
However Level 6 would be Science's way of reaching there.

Originally Posted by Javiersansano

.

If the idea behind the Aeon of Horus is "Freedom", is is freedom from the laws? In other words, Aiwass is so strong because he is free from existencial laws, perhaps creating his.own laws, hence the quoing from The Book of the Law, and that means that Aleister also wants to attain that freedom.

Then, Accel and Kakine are the Level 6 candidates because they have the power to understand any law come in contact with, and bring to or create into this world new laws, RESPECTIVELY?

Finally, is.it.possible.to make a.parallel between the Icon theory and the scientific laws/axioms/theories, and that magicians and espers must understand and have faith one of them?

By reading the Vol. 3 quote, and checking my previous posts, I can infer that La Persona Superiore a Dio is an outdated concept; the one who attains that title can probably imitate and exceed God's miracles within the laws of the sphere/circle/level (in terms of the Sephirot) were humans live.

If the idea behind Aeon of Horus is freedom, its probably freedom from the SYSTEM or the Sephirot... what Aiwass probably achieved, ergo, he was created within the boundaries created by God, but surpassed the limits (sephirot and the laws within each level) imposed by God.

The Magic side doesn't understand what God is, and is dependant on the Icon Theory. In other words, because they don't even try to understand the laws that rule over the Sephirot, the Science side can't grasp the idea of going outside the sephirot because it draws its power from beings that exist within the sephirot

The Science side operates acording to theories humans create to try to comprehend the laws or axioms of how the universe/SYSTEM works. But unlike the Magic side, it tries to comprehend the SYSTEM and its laws, instead of just letting things work out along the parameters of the laws the rule over the levels of SYSTEM. Therefore, the sciende side has a better chance to attain "FREEDOM"

what I still don't understand is how the MAJIN destroyed the Invisible thing, if La Persona Superiore a Dio, which supposedly is superior to MAJIN, did not even try to attack The Invisible Thing.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Javiersansano

what I still don't understand is how the MAJIN destroyed the Invisible thing, if La Persona Superiore a Dio, which supposedly is superior to MAJIN, did not even try to attack The Invisible Thing.

Because of her infinite possibility.

[Javiersansano]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Because of her infinite possibility.

I get the thing about 50-50... she got lucky, but at the time Fiamma "watched/sensed/detected" what was sealed in Touma's arm, he realized he would lose, and in at least one instance, La Persona Superiore a Dio has been stated to be superior to Majin

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Javiersansano

I get the thing about 50-50... she got lucky, but at the time Fiamma "watched/sensed/detected" what was sealed in Touma's arm, he realized he would lose, and in at least one instance, La Persona Superiore a Dio has been stated to be superior to Majin

Firstly, which instance? Quote for me.

Secondly, according to Crowley, Fiamma had been using an 'outdated version' ie. the Aeon of Osiris so we know it was not really the best condition.

Thirdly, Fiamma's knowledge of magic is arguably less than a Majin, after all he had to rely on Index to even use his ability without limit. And as we all know, knowledge is power here. Maybe it's less about who has the more haxx power, but rather who came more prepared.