Madoka Magica - Episodes 11 & 12 Discussion/Poll - Final Episodes!

[Mentar]

Well, it certainly was a very unexpected ending for me ... but then, I'm not sad about that at all. The story began as a generic mahou shoujo setup, before Urobuchi Gen ripped it out of its context and told a gripping and exceptionally _logical_ drama story in its stead. And now, in the end, it found a logical way to return to its roots. So, in a way, the show has come full circle, which is a sign of quality in my eyes.

Deus ex machina, "Mai HiME" ending? Not in my book. In Mai HiME everyone revived and ended happy in a great celebration. Here? Madoka perished and forgotten in self-sacrifice. Sayaka perished in unrequited genuine love. Homura condemned to an eternal fight in solitude (with only QB as companion, never saw THAT twist coming). Still, all this loss and pain still felt like Urobuchi let us off "easy".

Could the story have ended differently, in the same way the middle story was told? Characters dying left and right, with just comeuppance for QB? And in the end, in the ruins, the victor lies bloodied but alive? Yes, and it could have been very powerful. But it would have made the change from Mahou Shoujo to Action Drama complete and irreversible.

It was an incredible ride, ending on 9.5 out of 10 for me. Thank you for the treat

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Here is what I think in detail
http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl...069&attid=7858

"You lost? Just load from your last save point, farm exp and try again until you succeed. "

Heh, good points all around, but I have to admit that line made me laugh. There is a lot that isn't explained, or is made convenient. A number of shows have the same issues, so in the long run, Madoka is pretty much average. And I'm fine with that, I suppose. As you noted, everything Madoka did has been done before, so there's not any real unique factor involved, just an interesting story.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

The problem with Kaijo's argument is why would Madoka even ask for so much detail at episode 2?

Maybe she wouldn't. Sayaka is equally guilty for not asking. Perhaps Mami, too, and every other magical girl in existence up to that point. It's not so much detail, it's just a simple question: "Why can't we wish all witches away so no one has to risk their lives?"

Just one simple question. What's wrong with one question?

Which would lead to other questions, and the truth would come out. Hell, Homura is even more guilty for not explaining things, when the truth would have served her cause far better than anything else.

[Dawnbringerz]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Of course, that leaves another big plot hole: If Madoka could rewrite reality, then why do they still need to fight at all? But I suppose this wish was a huge step forward, and if wishes still exist, future MG's could probably further fix the issue.

They need to fight to help what QB's race is trying to achieve. They cannot stop fighting or the universe will die some time in the future.

Madoka's wish solve both Magical Girl/Witch's problem AND the universe's problem (entropy) at the same time, so there is no need to fix that.



As for Madoka being able to wish for this in ep2 issue, she could do it back then but the result would be different because she doesn't have the resolution for a wish that big.

There are 2 parts of wish, one is the words said to QB, another is the will to fulfill the wish. To bear the grief of all Magical girls and get stuck in an endless loop of killing yourself over and over for all eternity requires a great will power. Madoka doesn't have enough of it until she learns about Homura's past in ep11.

Basically the adventure of all characters in this show up to ep11 is required for Madoka to have enough resolution for the event that she kills her witch self to occur.


Had Madoka made the same wish half-assedly the show would probably end at the point where her big grief seed destroyed the world.

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Maybe she wouldn't. Sayaka is equally guilty for not asking. Perhaps Mami, too, and every other magical girl in existence up to that point. It's not so much detail, it's just a simple question: "Why can't we wish all witches away so no one has to risk their lives?"

Just one simple question. What's wrong with one question?

Which would lead to other questions, and the truth would come out. Hell, Homura is even more guilty for not explaining things, when the truth would have served her cause far better than anything else.

Sure there's nothing wrong with asking that question but here we are again... why would they even be asking for such a detail? Any normal girl would think of getting something they want; not break the system.

We can all sit and think like smart alecs here because we are observers. For these girls who are given the oppurtunity to have one of their desires granted they won't be asking how to use their wish to break the system.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Lumine

Finished watching the stream

Madoka is Jesus no wonder why they aired it today

Yes, have an upvote sir.

[zato_1one]

Can't really say that this ending is not conclusive. IMO If the entire system is not rewritten then QB is still continue to harvest negative energy from new born witch again and again until the witch destroy the earth. I don't think such an ending can be called conclusive either.

[MartianMage]

The show isn't about Kyubey and his MG system, it's about Madoka. It's conclusive as long as it shows a conclusion to Madoka's story.

[Dawnbringerz]

Just thought of something:

Walpurgist Night might be Magical Girls who made the same sort of wish as Madoka, but doesn't have enough will power to make it though (and eventually reach despair then got turned into witch).

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Dawnbringerz

They need to fight to help what QB's race is trying to achieve. They cannot stop fighting or the universe will die some time in the future.

Then reality could have been rewritten to make that conflict part not necessary, such as having a fountain of endless energy forever adding energy to the universe. Or have it so all expended energy is instantly recycled.

Madoka's wish feels a lot like one ran a mile, and yet decided to stop one inch from the finish line.

Although I'll say that it does make some sense in that her focus was more on stopping all witches and reviving all magical girls. Of course, going by what some have said, we should have magical girls turning into witches again when they use up their magic...

...unless of course, if one decides not to use magic, then one is in no danger of ever becoming a witch. Or that there is enough recharges to go around such that no one is in danger.

In that respect, the situation would be no different than before, heh.

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

The show isn't about Kyubey and his MG system, it's about Madoka. It's conclusive as long as it shows a conclusion to Madoka's story.

But without QB then there is no story in the first place. So, he is still one of the most important factor which shouldn't be ignored. IMO

[Dawnbringerz]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Then reality could have been rewritten to make that conflict part not necessary, such as having a fountain of endless energy forever adding energy to the universe. Or have it so all expended energy is instantly recycled

Madoka would need 2 wishes to make that happen. (However she is allowed only 1)
1. Remove MG/witch system
2. Create Infinite Energy system

And removing QB's race isn't an option either

Spoiler for Without QB:

or else we would still be running around naked, living in caves.

She got 2 birds with 1 stone with this wish.
- Turn the current MG system into the one that doesn't have any witch, while providing energy for the universe.

[MartianMage]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

But without QB then there is no story in the first place. So, he is still one of the most important factor which shouldn't be ignored. IMO

The show could have ended where Homura and Madoka both defeat Walpurgis and die after that and QB still continue contracting new girls into his little game and it would still be a conclusive ending just a bad one. The point is the focus of the story is Madoka. As long as the show gives a closure how Madoka fought and won/died then it's conclusive for the show called Puella Magi Madoka Magica.

Haven't watched the subs yet and as far as I have gathered from the posts here the ending also makes a better "MG system" so yeah I think that's pretty conclusive for people who's so into the MG system.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Then reality could have been rewritten to make that conflict part not necessary, such as having a fountain of endless energy forever adding energy to the universe. Or have it so all expended energy is instantly recycled.

Madoka's wish feels a lot like one ran a mile, and yet decided to stop one inch from the finish line.

Although I'll say that it does make some sense in that her focus was more on stopping all witches and reviving all magical girls. Of course, going by what some have said, we should have magical girls turning into witches again when they use up their magic...

...unless of course, if one decides not to use magic, then one is in no danger of ever becoming a witch. Or that there is enough recharges to go around such that no one is in danger.

In that respect, the situation would be no different than before, heh.

She didn't revive all magical girls, she stopped them from becoming witches in the first place thus her needing to transcend time. Not sure if you missed it, but Dawn had also posted earlier in his response to you that the MGs in this new system just disappear instead of becoming witches.

[gecd]

just finishing it
I cried
even one month delay wont stop this anime to reached legend status
I will always remember you madoka....

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Sabato

The show could have ended where Homura and Madoka both defeat Walpurgis and die after that and QB still continue contracting new girls into his little game and it would still be a conclusive ending just a bad one. The point is the focus of the story is Madoka. As long as the show gives a closure how Madoka fought and won/died then it's conclusive for the show called Puella Magi Madoka Magica.

Haven't watched the subs yet and as far as I have gathered from the posts here the ending also makes a better "MG system" so yeah I think that's pretty conclusive for people who's so into the MG system.

Well, to me that type of ending was already presented in past timeline (just imagine that Homura didn't have enough power to reverse time). This timeline was difference because the reason that Madoka decided to make a contract was to change the MG system. Because unlike another timeline, Madoka knew the truth behind the MG system. So, I think that it was very appropriate ending.

Another point is that because Madoka is not exist anymore. So, Homura doesn't have reason to reverse time again which prevent the infinite loop ending (far from being called conclusive, IMO). I consider this as a good thing.

[MaiNoKen]

Originally Posted by By many people

Deus ex machina

I do not consider having the main characters themselves becoming god/superpower themselves (and then self-sacrifice; having this aired the day before Good Friday chuckles me) as Deus ex machina. There are no sudden introduction of an external force. The wish system is already in place at the very beginning of the series - just the main characters do not fully understand how the system actually works.

I will watch the subbed video later, but the ending reminds me actually Baldur's Gate (the PC game)...

[Myssa Rei]

I think what will make or break the finale for people who never watched it on the live stream will be whether or not they can accept that such an entrenched system like the Incubators' energy-gathering MO could be changed by something they themselves provide as a sort of service. It was like the answer was just staring at them from the very beginning, and yet they didn't bother with it because it was inconvenient.

Break the old and terrible system, replace it with something less emotionally scarring for everyone involved... with a wish! Simple and convenient, with the only difference in the scale of the wish made. A very well-informed wish, to be fair, but it's still resolved by a selfless and all-encompassing wish.

Incidentally, I really have to wonder just where this leaves Kazumi Magica now. It's VERY clear that there are still witches-from-magical girls in that one so is it an AU instead of being part of the same timeline?

[Key Board]

QB can no longer get energy from magical girl emotions

Although if there was still a way, he admits to epilogue Homura that it's too "delicious" of a prospect to not use.

So yes, he's still getting energy from somewhere. It's just implied that it's no longer a get rich quick pyramid scam anymore.

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

I think what will make or break the finale for people who never watched it on the live stream will be whether or not they can accept that such an entrenched system like the Incubators' energy-gathering MO could be changed by something they themselves provide as a sort of service. It was like the answer was just staring at them from the very beginning, and yet they didn't bother with it because it was inconvenient.

But I think that it was actually mentioned before in episode 8. Due to Madoka's enormous power, QB said to Madoka that she could become a god and could do something that even QB couldn't if she really wished for it. So, I don't think that this was out of the blue. But who would have thought that she did become a god.

[Hagoshod]

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6815052/...dia_of_Witches

I'm such a fool.