One Piece - Chapter 803 [manga]

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by Talendra

I don't get why people believe so strongly that the Yonkou system will stay the same, or even in place. Unlike the Shichibukai, the number of which are determined by the World Government as part of overall military strategy, there is no reason why there should be only four.

Of course, the name is a strong indicator, but there are a lot of "established" things in One Piece destined to change as the story continues to develop. The current four are considered emperorsnot because someone has bestowed that title upon them, but because they have to power to hold the lands, lead the troops they do and besides the other three, there does not seem (as far as we know) another unaffiliated pirate group of similar power to contest them.

Therefore, if a similarly powerful pirate group arises and manages to secure it's own pie of the new world, would that not make such a fifth group part of the "Yon"kou, in effect, even if not name?

Anyhow, I don't think this question will be of relevance anyway, as I don't really see the need - or a place - for Yonkou system (at least in its current form) in a World with a Pirate King

^ This. And as far as we know, the current balance of power (shichibukai+marines=yonkou) didn't even exist back during Roger's era. I anticipate there will be changes to the system once the WG falls.

[Talendra]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

^ This. And as far as we know, the current balance of power (shichibukai+marines=yonkou) didn't even exist back during Roger's era. I anticipate there will be changes to the system once the WG falls.

That is absolutely what I expect as well. It kinda has to happen, no matter how you look at it. We will without a doubt see a significant change (if not a complete replacement by some other entity) of the World Government/Marine by the time we reach the end of the series. With everything we already know about the WG/right-wing-marines and their "evilness", it's virtually impossible to not have a significant system change in a manga that has such a positive tone and focus on a younger audience. The Shichibukai will probably be faced with a similar situation. Not only are they highly intertwined with the WG, but we arealready in a situation where it's pretty easy to distinguish the "good/pro luffy" members and the rest; making a complete collapse of the group very likely once their loyalties are tested... the war of the summit was already a nice little bit of foreshadowing in that regard.

Given this background it would indeed be very strange if the Yonkou stay the way they are. So instead of arguing which supernova should replace which Yonkou, why don't we speculate about how a post "WG/Shichibukai/Yonkou" system of power could look like? (Granted, sounds much more difficult^^) - I for once can't see One Piece ending with a world that is exclusively happy-go-lucky. While the Strawhats and their growing cast of supporters will undoubtedly improve a great many things, I just don't see Oda being so clichee to have a perfectly problem-free world at the end.

[itachi-san314]

I don't think anyone is saying that once the WG falls and/or someone becomes the Pirate King, things won't change By their very definition those events will change the world.

[Talendra]

Actually, a lot of people are saying exactly that, at least implicitly. Yonkou status isn't easily achieved (for instance when compared to Shichibukai)... once you have a player becoming established in such a way, chances are they won't go anywhere anytime soon. Not only because they were strong enough to get to that point and eclipsed their opposition in terms of "in story power levels", but also because with how much we know about the New World already, there has to be some serious level of exposition before a character/group can become a Yonkou. Think about it from a story-telling point of view: its not like with the Shichibukai (and even the admirals, to a lesser extent), where a single new character can just pop up when it's convenient for the story, as long as he is sufficiently strong. The exposition requirements for a character/group ascend to Yonkou status are much higher. They need significant manpower and support, these things do not appear out of thin air; it would simply not be believable for the readers if some previously unknown force simply becomes a Yonkou. A few mere chapters of introduction wouldn't change anything in this regard either.

Right now, we do not know about a single "core" group that meets these requirements and I simply cannot see Oda spending the time to develop an existing group to that point, if the Yonkou system is destined to change anyway. So when people talk about who could become a "new" Yonkou, I personally disagree with their assessment of where we are in the story and how the pacing will play out.

[P_Dezz]

Originally Posted by Talendra

Dunno, I actually do get the feeling a lot of people are saying exactly this... at least implicitly. Yonkou status isn't easily achieved (for instance when compared to Shichibukai)... once you have a player becoming established in such a way, chances are they won't go anywhere anytime soon. Not only because they were strong enough to get to that point and eclipsed their opposition in terms of "in story power levels", but also because with how much we know about the New World already, there has to be some serious level of exposition before a character/group can become a Yonkou. Think about it from a story-telling point of view: its not like with the Shichibukai (and even the admirals, to a lesser extent), where a new character can just pop up when it's convenient for the story, as long as he is sufficiently strong. The exposition requirements for a character/group ascend to Yonkou level are much higher. They need significant manpower and support, this does not simply appear out of thin air; it would simply not be believable for the readers if some previously unknown force simply becomes a Yonkou. A few mere chapters of introduction wouldn't change anything in this regard either.

Right now, we do not know about a single "core" group that meets these requirements and I simply cannot see Oda spending the time to develop an existing group to that point, if the Yonkou system is destined to change anyway. So when people talk about who could become a "new" Yonkou, I personally disagree with their assessment of where we are in the story and how the pacing will play out.

It is fair to say that in Luffy's position he's just not ready for yonkou status, but we don't know how long Oda will stretch out this saga for Luffy and Kaidou to finally meet one on one. It might be just like in the Baroque works saga where he would go to various islands solving problems that Kaidoh has caused until finally meeting the man. There might be another time skip included you never know.

[grey_1960]

Originally Posted by Talendra

That is absolutely what I expect as well. It kinda has to happen, no matter how you look at it. We will without a doubt see a significant change (if not a complete replacement by some other entity) of the World Government/Marine by the time we reach the end of the series. With everything we already know about the WG/right-wing-marines and their "evilness", it's virtually impossible to not have a significant system change in a manga that has such a positive tone and focus on a younger audience. The Shichibukai will probably be faced with a similar situation. Not only are they highly intertwined with the WG, but we arealready in a situation where it's pretty easy to distinguish the "good/pro luffy" members and the rest; making a complete collapse of the group very likely once their loyalties are tested... the war of the summit was already a nice little bit of foreshadowing in that regard.

Given this background it would indeed be very strange if the Yonkou stay the way they are. So instead of arguing which supernova should replace which Yonkou, why don't we speculate about how a post "WG/Shichibukai/Yonkou" system of power could look like? (Granted, sounds much more difficult^^) - I for once can't see One Piece ending with a world that is exclusively happy-go-lucky. While the Strawhats and their growing cast of supporters will undoubtedly improve a great many things, I just don't see Oda being so clichee to have a perfectly problem-free world at the end.

Can one bad individual define the group?
Your generalizing way to much and labeling any everyone under a specific organization evil. When in fact there are surprisingly a lot of good people in these organizations. Look at the Marines, Garp, Sengoku, Akoiji(he left), Admiral fujitori, Coby, Smoker, Tusur, Tashigi, and etc. The WG consists of 170 nations in the 4 seas and the grandline. Alabastia is one of them. I think the WG and the Marines will not go away any time soon. The Marines and the WG existed when Rogers was King I don't see why they would change if there is a new King. With all these good people and history I don't see them vanishing anytime soon.

Changing of the Guard
I personally think it will be the Celetial Dragons that will lose there place. Also the Yonkous it would be redundant and waste of time if Oda destroyed the yonkou just to put a system up similar to the Yonkou then rename it. Those pirates are Yonkous for a reason and I don't think the title will go away soon even if there is a King. Now I do think the Shichbukai will be replaced when the Reverie happens. But the powers that be are pretty much grounded for the time being. Dragon did acknowledge that Cipher Pole became more powerful too. Can the Yonkous and the WG be wiped out, replaced or changed? Yes , but in my opinion your asking for a huge task. WG will have a crusial role in the story line whether it is evil or good. They span over 800 years and they know the truth behind the Void Century. Many of the Yonkous lived in Rogers time, especially White Beard(now Marco and the white beard crew) and Shanks. I feel they will be key to Luffy finding the one piece and what ever gold rogers left behind. There is way to much story and connection you are ignoring. Any ways even if Oda did take the Yonkou title out what do you think White Beard, Kaidou, Big Mama, Black Beard, and Shanks will be called by everyone in the one piece universe? Oda has way to much time invested in these organizations, he also has to fill in a lot of plot wholes, and there are way to many good stories and plot twists for these organizations to go away quickly.

[laughingwalls]

Originally Posted by Dengar

He can't really be a yonko. If Luffy becomes one, there will be five.

Then they can be called go-ku

[marvelB]

To add my own two cents to the Yonkou/world power discussion:

Originally Posted by Talendra

I don't get why people believe so strongly that the Yonkou system will stay the same, or even in place. Unlike the Shichibukai, the number of which are determined by the World Government as part of overall military strategy, there is no reason why there should be only four.

As far as the bold part is concerned, I think the reason why there's only four established emperors is to maintain some vision of balance (after all, the emperors aren't actually an organization, but more of an..... idea or concept). After all, it should be noted that as far as the WG (or more specifically, the Elder Stars) are concerned, preserving balance is the #1 priority. Of course, they're also wise enough to know that being overprotective of said balance would damage it in the end, which is why Marineford happened. But even then, notice how straight after the war the elders discussed what actions to take after Whitebeard's death. So yeah, I think that the reason why we have four emperors (as well as seven warlords, and three admirals) is to maintain the status quo.


....Of course, in due time that won't matter anyway, since Luffy and his pirate army will inevitably shatter that balance into itty bitty pieces in the end.



On another note, I don't see Luffy becoming an emperor, regardless of whether or not he topples any of the current ones. Believe it or not, I'd sooner expect to see God Usopp become an emperor over Luffy (I'd also bring up Buggy.... but remember, he's the true Pirate God here. ).

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Talendra

Actually, a lot of people are saying exactly that, at least implicitly. Yonkou status isn't easily achieved (for instance when compared to Shichibukai)... once you have a player becoming established in such a way, chances are they won't go anywhere anytime soon. Not only because they were strong enough to get to that point and eclipsed their opposition in terms of "in story power levels", but also because with how much we know about the New World already, there has to be some serious level of exposition before a character/group can become a Yonkou. Think about it from a story-telling point of view: its not like with the Shichibukai (and even the admirals, to a lesser extent), where a single new character can just pop up when it's convenient for the story, as long as he is sufficiently strong. The exposition requirements for a character/group ascend to Yonkou status are much higher. They need significant manpower and support, these things do not appear out of thin air; it would simply not be believable for the readers if some previously unknown force simply becomes a Yonkou. A few mere chapters of introduction wouldn't change anything in this regard either.

That's not really the case. We've seen Blackbeard ascend to Emperor during the Timeskip without much exposition. And on the opposite side of that power, Warlords and Admirals have had new additions with little to no exposition. We get to know the characters eventually of course, but Oda has zero problem promoting people with no direct story line explaining how and why it happened.

Right now, we do not know about a single "core" group that meets these requirements and I simply cannot see Oda spending the time to develop an existing group to that point, if the Yonkou system is destined to change anyway. So when people talk about who could become a "new" Yonkou, I personally disagree with their assessment of where we are in the story and how the pacing will play out.

Sure we have. Luffy and Kidd fit that bill. Particularly Kidd. The new young generation has been hugely built up by Oda. The toppling of the current Emperors is something that is surely on his list of their future achievements. I agree that the system will change at the end of the story, but we still have a lot of story to go before we get there. If and when an Emperor goes down, there will be a fight over their territory if someone doesn't decisively take it over right away.

Originally Posted by marvelB

On another note, I don't see Luffy becoming an emperor, regardless of whether or not he topples any of the current ones. Believe it or not, I'd sooner expect to see God Usopp become an emperor over Luffy (I'd also bring up Buggy.... but remember, he's the true Pirate God here. ).

Yea. I doubt Luffy would accept any title that is less than Pirate King. He would probably be an Emperor without ever claiming the title just like with the Fleet. He did already start claiming territory at Fishman Island after all. I'm on the fence with Buggy becoming an Emperor. I feel like it's tougher to hide a lack of personal power in that position, but I'm sure Oda can keep the joke going if he wants.

[Dengar]

I should also point out that only a few chapters ago it was established that Luffy has no interest in establishing any kind of rule. He just wants to be the master of the seas, not the people in it.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I should also point out that only a few chapters ago it was established that Luffy has no interest in establishing any kind of rule. He just wants to be the master of the seas, not the people in it.

Remember also that he didn't say an absolute 'No' either. He denied the fleet, but he still has it. It's Oda's clever way of keeping Luffy in character while still acquiring what he needs to become Pirate King one day. Like what was started with Fishman Island, I could see other islands wanting to be in Luffy's "territory" as well. And I could see Luffy wanting to protect islands worth of people just like with the Fishmen. I agree he wouldn't want the title of Emperor, just like he didn't want a fleet, but he probably will find himself in that position at some point before becoming PK.

[Talendra]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

That's not really the case. We've seen Blackbeard ascend to Emperor during the Timeskip without much exposition. And on the opposite side of that power, Warlords and Admirals have had new additions with little to no exposition. We get to know the characters eventually of course, but Oda has zero problem promoting people with no direct story line explaining how and why it happened.

I would like to argue that Blackbeard is a special, unique case. I'm sure he will remain the only new addition to the Yonkou. And while you are right in that he ascended during the timeskip, his case really proves my point more than it does yours ;-). We had a TON of exposure to both, Blackbeard personally and his crew. We have first seen him and his initial crew in chapter 234, before the Strawhats went up to Skypiea. That's more than 500 Chapters ago (feels like an eternity^^), and we have heard Ace talk about him even earlier, if I recall correctly. We got a lot of insight into his motivation and his view of the world ("dreams" and "fate" are the keywords). We followed him as he expanded his crew, and got a decent bit of information on the newcomers. There has been significant foreshadowing and hyping by other major players such as Whitebeard, Shanks etc.

Furthermore, consider that, unlike Admirals and Shichibukai, being a strong individual is not enough to become an emperor. They all have (and need) significant manpower to control their territory. It is much harder to convey that we have not heard of such an influential group at this point in the story, while it's somewhat reasonable, to be expected even, that there are top-level individuals which we not know as of yet. I'm sure we will even find a few of those individuals in Big Mom's and Kaidou's crew when we finally get a proper introduction.

Despite the massive buildup, his strong crew and his ridiculous abilities, it took BB quite a while to become an emperor. There is no way some "unknown" individual/group will just pop up and become an emperor. As for the groups we know, noone is even remotely close to fulfill those requirements, and by the time it would take to believably build them up to that point (like it was done with BB), the series will probably be very close to its end, thereby making the addition pretty pointless.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

Sure we have. Luffy and Kidd fit that bill. Particularly Kidd. The new young generation has been hugely built up by Oda. The toppling of the current Emperors is something that is surely on his list of their future achievements. I agree that the system will change at the end of the story, but we still have a lot of story to go before we get there. If and when an Emperor goes down, there will be a fight over their territory if someone doesn't decisively take it over right away.

Of course I totally agree with you in that it is clear that Oda has big plans for the worst generation. I don't think anyone will doubt that. However, as said above, the difference between in buildup is massive. I would argue that Blackbeard received at least as much hype/foreshadowing/buildup as all of the supernova combined.

They will become major players in their own right, no doubt, but personally I'm absolutely convinced that none of them will become an emperor.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

Remember also that he didn't say an absolute 'No' either. He denied the fleet, but he still has it. It's Oda's clever way of keeping Luffy in character while still acquiring what he needs to become Pirate King one day. Like what was started with Fishman Island, I could see other islands wanting to be in Luffy's "territory" as well. And I could see Luffy wanting to protect islands worth of people just like with the Fishmen. I agree he wouldn't want the title of Emperor, just like he didn't want a fleet, but he probably will find himself in that position at some point before becoming PK.

I'm fairly sure that a massive fleet of... pirates who pretty much do whatever the hell they want, is an entirely different type of entity than what the four emperors are. I'm not sure why people want Luffy to become an emperor in the first place. Can't he just stay the wild card he's always been?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I'm fairly sure that a massive fleet of... pirates who pretty much do whatever the hell they want, is an entirely different type of entity than what the four emperors are.

A really strong pirate with a close group of strong underlings and a fleet to back him up? sounds exactly like an emperor to me

[Dengar]

Well, it doesn't to me. First of all, the word "underlings" just doesn't mesh well with me.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Well, it doesn't to me. First of all, the word "underlings" just doesn't mesh well with me.

you're just playing semantics because your point is falling flat. by underlings i meant his crew

[Dengar]

Uhm, it's not falling flat. It's my opinion. It's different from yours but it's no less valid. >_> "Underlings" is exactly what I feel would be the difference between Luffy and an emperor.