Why are people still sticking to old and outdated technology?

[Daiz]

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

Daiz then how do you explain that the xvid releases get downloaded more? I am not against switching to H.264. I just dislike the mind set to force things.

Well, I mentioned several reasons in the first post why people download XviD releases, but in general, they are the kind of people who wouldn't do anything if they weren't forced to, even if it was for their own benefit. People who download to watch on their DVD players need to release how much better quality they could get nowadays with very cheap investions (a cable to hook to up your PC to TV), people who are afraid of change, and people who think they aren't capable of playing H.264, even if they actually are, and then there's also people on other OSes who don't know how to use MPlayer and end up not downloading MKV releases because they use something like VLC that literally fucks up softsubs on every occasion.

Mainly it's about laziness and being afraid of new things. If there was a forceful push from our side on the subject, these people would actually learn about the new technology and gain the benefits it offers.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

If they can let them.

Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything, but the initial point brought up in this thread is valid. From a purely demographical standpoint, I find it hard to believe there are that many users out there with 5 year old--outdated--hardware that isn't able to play H.264 releases. Even technologically, I can't imagine a single piece of PC hardware working that long. Granted, my ATX case is almost 8 years old. ._.

You're pretty delusional to think two thirds of all leechers use those old boxes to playback fansubs. We're talking about a fraction of those, and that's a big maybe. I only have to wonder how such small numbers fit into the schemes of fansubbers who are primarily catering to large audiences. It's not that leechers aren't capable of playing these files, it's because they simply don't bother to install proper playback filters/packages or are just too soothed by the sound of the word Xvid and the comfort of their low-power set-top devices. And if those chompy fansubbers (that came out of some distant parallel universe) are waiting for companies to start releasing cheap AVC set-tops and the likes, the wait before we all switch to H.264 will be a long one.

[2H-Dragon]

Originally Posted by Daiz

Well, I mentioned several reasons in the first post why people download XviD releases, but in general, they are the kind of people who wouldn't do anything if they weren't forced to, even if it was for their own benefit. People who download to watch on their DVD players need to release how much better quality they could get nowadays with very cheap investions (a cable to hook to up your PC to TV), people who are afraid of change, and people who think they aren't capable of playing H.264, even if they actually are, and then there's also people on other OSes who don't know how to use MPlayer and end up not downloading MKV releases because they use something like VLC that literally fucks up softsubs on every occasion.

Mainly it's about laziness and being afraid of new things. If there was a forceful push from our side on the subject, these people would actually learn about the new technology and gain the benefits it offers.

I pretty much agree, but I have a soft spot for those who don't know.

Originally Posted by Toua

Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything, but the initial point brought up in this thread is valid. From a purely demographical standpoint, I find it hard to believe there are that many users out there with 5 year old--outdated--hardware that isn't able to play H.264 releases. Even technologically, I can't imagine a single piece of PC hardware working that long. Granted, my ATX case is almost 8 years old. ._.

You're pretty delusional to think two thirds of all leechers use those old boxes to playback fansubs. We're talking about a fraction of those, and that's a big maybe. I only have to wonder how such small numbers fit into the schemes of fansubbers who are primarily catering to large audiences. It's not that leechers aren't capable of playing these files, it's because they simply don't bother to install proper playback filters/packages or are just too soothed by the sound of the word Xvid and the comfort of their low-power set-top devices. And if those chompy fansubbers are waiting for companies to start releasing cheap AVC set-tops and the likes, the wait before we all switch to H.264 will be a long one.

Well I was never talking about the majority. You do have to admit that there is a portion of leechers that don't know jack about pc's and don't even know it's possible to dl stuff by irc. If there is a portion that can't even properly use irc. I really wonder how those people are going to remove all their old codecs. So they can get CCCP to properly work. There are people that will be afraid to even to reformat their pc's. Can't blame me for having some sympathy.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

Well I was never talking about the majority.

So large audiences isn't the issue. OK!

Can't blame me for having some sympathy.

Nope, I can't blame the fansubbers who are most likely sticking to Xvid releases out of that sole reason either.

[2H-Dragon]

Originally Posted by Toua

So large audiences isn't the issue.

I never said xvid was better then H.264. I just campaigned the duo releases of xvid and H.264. If I had to pick one. I'd go for H.264 too if I had to pick one, but if it's possible to get a duel release why not? The extra amount of effort may be more, but it's not that much if you look at the total.

[Takeru]

The quality of your hard-subbed karaoke took a hit, I can see obvious artifacting around the characters.

[X10A_Freedom]

Originally Posted by Toua

Even technologically, I can't imagine a single piece of PC hardware working that long. Granted, my ATX case is almost 8 years old. ._.

My parents' IBM NetVista delivered new in September 2001.
P4 1.3ghz.
128mb RDRAM
40gb HDD
Nvidia Riva TNT2 32mb.

A hallmate uses a pre-historic Sony laptop with a P3 800mhz.


From my point of view as a leecher, fansub groups who advocate the use of h264, which seems to be the majority of fansubbers in this thread should promote the use of CCCP more publicly. My experience of h264 without CCCP is just...crap! Advertise CCCP on the front page or something - with a link to a forum post detailing installation instructions, and the wonders of MPC! I am very impressed with MPC myself.

Another tool to use is to push forward the advantage over filesizes. My HD Shana RAWs in xvid ranges from 290-350mb in size. A fansub group with .mkv are releasing HD at 240mb. If 100mb can be saved for HD releases and possibly 70mb for SD, people should be made aware of it.

The above two suggestions are linked to one thing - public knowledge. "Dumb" leechers need to be told what h264 can do, and how it is very beneficial! This would increase the rate of h264 downloads and "competing" groups using xVid to their advantage would lose downloads, which would be an incentive for them to switch to h264!

[Nicholi]

Omg, I can't believe with something as simple to use as the CCCP people still have issues with playback when their PCs are more then capable. But I'd like to address something else stated only once (or maybe twice in this thread)...which was all the rage years ago in other ASuki threads of "Why use H.264".

Hardware players

Fucking stupid DivX players that so many people are gay for. Well I hadn't noticed for awhile but the HTS I got actually also played DivX. So I thought, zoomj it's time to see what all these idiots are gay about.

Result: Disappointment.

I had said it years before in one of those H.264 hate threads. Fansubs are not, have not, will unlikely ever be made for hardware players. At least to my knowledge no group claims all their releases will work just fine and dandy on hardware devices. Besides the obvious concerns of did the encoder use the correct settings to be hardware compliant...the most fundamental thing would be putting the subtitles into the "safe zone" of the video.

Guess what, no one fucking does it. Overscan is a bitch, and it still exists in the majority of display devices. So some fansubs you might not have a problem, except the subs are bordering the bottom edge of the TV. Others will cut straight through them cause they are rather low, sometimes you'll even get long lines cut off on the left/right. And dear god...Karaoke, you'll never see it. AFAIK no one puts karaoke that far into the video (resolution'wise) in order for it to be in the safe zone. You are lucky to see any of it sometimes, let alone just the english part.

Anyone claiming they need their non-H.264 AVI encodes for their hardware device should just gtfo now. Srsly, just gtfo.

[jpwong]

Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon

Daiz then how do you explain that the xvid releases get downloaded more? I am not against switching to H.264. I just dislike the mind set to force things.

Because it is the defacto standard, and people will stay with what they know works rather than try something new unless you make them. You saw the same resistance to XVID when it first appeared on the scene with various groups slowing changing to it and then getting mobbed by people in their irc channels and forums complainning about how they were unable to play the new releases (since the old ones used Divx). And then one day, basically everyone up and converted, and people adjusted.

I suppose there's more problems here because it's a codec and container change, and probably requires marginally more work than getting xvid decoding to work.

[ScR3WiEuS]

Mind you, it's not exactly true that most people download xvid.
Take for example Gundam 00, which I happen to be working on.
We release a variety of formats, just for the lulz.
Take for example episode 6:


[Conclave-Mendoi]_Mobile_Suit_Gundam_00_-_06_[1280x720_H.264_AAC][E36E3B71].mkv
28,444 gets on our BT tracker

[Conclave-Mendoi]_Mobile_Suit_Gundam_00_-_06_[704x400_H.264_AAC][584881B5].mkv
9,014 gets on our BT tracker

[Conclave-Mendoi]_Mobile_Suit_Gundam_00_-_06_[704x400_XviD_MP3][90281625].avi
16,528 gets on our BT tracker

[Conclave-Mendoi]_Mobile_Suit_Gundam_00_-_06_[480x272_H.264_AAC][135FBCAF].mp4
[PSP release] negligible

[Conclave-Mendoi]_Mobile_Suit_Gundam_00_-_06_[576x320_RV40_COOK][ACEAA2AD].rmvb
even more negligible

[Conclave-Mendoi]_Mobile_Suit_Gundam_00_-_06_[NDS_256x144][7BC0D399].dpg
[Nintendo DS release] let's not go there

I left out XDCC stats because they reflect the same numbers, relatively.

Now, the interesting thing about Gundam is its huge popularity. Since this is one of the shows that are downloaded the most, it gives us a pretty good general idea of leecher preferences.
As you can see, the HD H264 release is downloaded quite a bit more than the XviD SD. Perhaps it's just because we don't release an XviD HD, but I somehow doubt that. What's also interesting is the rather large amount of SD H264 downloads, although I'd rather not draw any conclusions from it.

I think you guys are paying too much attention to the "active" leechers, if you will, the leechers you see complaining everywhere about how your groups suck because you don't do PS3 compatible encodes. I think that in reality, lots and lots of people have grown accustomed to the idea of h264+mkv.
Remember, there will always be someone complaining about your releases, because he isn't able to play them on his Ipod or whatever. Stick to your preferences, ignore the download count, enjoy your time fansubbing, make the best out of it. That way Good can triumph over Evil, Harry can kill Voldemort, and the Ewoks can dance.

[Zero1]

Nobody said a total shift from ASP to H.264 would be easy, would take a certain amount of time, or would even completely happen. ASP/XviD/DivX is so widespread that even computer noobs know about it. You get prebuilt PCs these days with some form of decoder already installed and advertised as DivX ready or some crap. It was beginning (or within the scenes you may argue it "was") to become the defacto standard, just as MP3 is for audio and JPG is for images. Imagine trying to tell people to drop MP3 and use AAC or Vorbis, or if you was some kind of CD ripping group that suddenly decided to switch to a newer format? Shitstorm GET.

Same with JPG. If you used some of the lesser known, better formats (such as JPEG2000, AIC, MNG or whatever takes your fancy), people would troll that they couldn't see shit and they weren't as easy to handle, or interoperable as the old formats. Trying to shift something like that is damn hard, and I'd like to see it change. Video compression moves on relatively well in comparison, and in my opinion, it's time audio and images did too.

As good as H.264 is, I have this feeling that everyone will be stung when H.265 arrives and gives a similar or better improvement over H.264 as H.264 did with ASP. Everyone is investing big bucks, but I think the big bucks should be saved for H.265.

H.265 will be wavelet, and while I have little experience with wavelet codecs, I do know that this will be awesome to say the least. Certainly not an incremental upgrade. All that remains to be seen however, is how using wavelet will affect what is effectively the existing H.264 standard (assuming they will use that as a starting point and update it, rather than start afresh).

Don't expect H.264 to roll over and submit. This is now the modern day equivalent of MPEG-2, so don't be surprised if 10 years from now you are still buying Bluray/HD-DVD and watching DVB/Satellite using H.264.

[Takeru]

Originally Posted by Zero1

Don't expect H.264 to roll over and submit. This is now the modern day equivalent of MPEG-2, so don't be surprised if 10 years from now you are still buying Bluray/HD-DVD and watching DVB/Satellite using H.264.

You are aware that HD-DVD and BluRay both still use MPEG-2, right? it's just a larger resolution at a higher bitrate. (My PS3 averages 60MB/s)

[Skyward]

The HD-DVD and Blu-Ray standards allow for more diverse video and audio codecs than DVD. Video can be encoded in MPEG-2, H.264, or VC-1. Currently, most HD disks use either VC-1 or MPEG-2, with a smaller number using H.264.

[checkers]

Originally Posted by Takeru

You are aware that HD-DVD and BluRay both still use MPEG-2, right? it's just a larger resolution at a higher bitrate. (My PS3 averages 60MB/s)

I think this is mostly zero1's point - h264 will stick around as long as MPEG2 has.

Side note: you have MPEG2 streams that hit 60MB/sec? That is 480mbits/sec so I doubt it, and I do not even believe 60mbit/sec. The highest terrestrial caps I've seen are 40mbit dumps, and BD/HDVD both at or below there too.

[Zero1]

Originally Posted by Takeru

You are aware that HD-DVD and BluRay both still use MPEG-2, right? it's just a larger resolution at a higher bitrate. (My PS3 averages 60MB/s)

Yes, that was my point that MPEG-2 is still being used today in DVB, Satellite, DVD, HD-DVD and Bluray. I suspect MPEG-2 in HD-DVD is not common place, and it tends to be H.264 or VC-1. It has been around 12 or 13 years since MPEG-2 was finalised and despite me taking 10 years as a ball park figure, if you consider H.264 was finalised in 2003 and we are already in to 2007; then if H.264 can last as long as MPEG-2, then 10 years from now isn't a bad estimate. It may well last longer if you consider that H.264 usage and playback is fueled by the tons of user generated content we now get, which MPEG-2 didn't get much of.

A lot of early Bluray releases got shit for using MPEG-2 and apparently looking a bit on the poor side. One of the higher ups at Sony (I can't for the life of me recall his name) stated that Sony would use MPEG-2 by default since it "offers higher quality than H.264" or words to that effect. I really don't know what he was talking about because it doesn't take a genius to know that a 20mbps H.264 stream will walk all over a ~54mbps MPEG-2 stream.

The funny thing was, someone else from Sony was interviewed later on and he stated that the reason MPEG-2 was being used was simply production/encoding times. I don't recall the exact figures, but I seem to remember him saying it took a couple of days to encode the MPEG-2 and a week or two to encode the H.264, so obviously if there was a mistake in the video the H.264 would be 2 weeks wasted over a couple of days if they had used MPEG-2.

It kind of reminds me about the whole PS3 rumble thing, how they were originally saying it's impossible to have rumble in the SixAxis controller as it would conflict with the motion sensing or some crap, when in actual fact there was a lawsuit of some description going on regarding rumble which was obviously the real reason it was not included. Now that it is settled, Sony is like, "LOL, we made the impossible, possible!, here, you can have your rumble back"

Anyway, enough of Sony and it's lies, I'm going off at a tangent.

Originally Posted by checkers

I think this is mostly zero1's point - h264 will stick around as long as MPEG2 has.

Side note: you have MPEG2 streams that hit 60MB/sec? That is 480mbits/sec so I doubt it, and I do not even believe 60mbit/sec. The highest terrestrial caps I've seen are 40mbit dumps, and BD/HDVD both at or below there too.

IIRC, Bluray's 1x read rate for video is 54mbps. I guess a spike of 60mbps isn't out of the question but I'd find it unlikely, perhaps they made a mistake or just rounded up.

[checkers]

See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-DVD#...isc_comparison

[Ashyukun]

My own 2p on this- the main reason I lean more toward getting the .avi encodes than h.264 (typically in a .mkv wrapper) is that my primary playback device is my Xbox 360- and while it will play h.264, it will not play it back in a Matroska container, and I have yet to find a truly effective (and time-efficient) way to convert the embedded fonts and such typically used in Matroska releases into a format such that it can be either played back easily on the 360 or transcoded for playback on it. So for now, I primarily stick with the .avi releases (which will be become even easier to use as of today's update for the Dashboard that appears to incorporate native DivX playback).

If things were being released encoded such using h.264 that they could be played back on the 360 directly (and I believe the PS3 has many of the same limitations as the 360 as far as what it can handle), I'd be all over h.264 releases and relishing the higher quality the encodes would produce. However, that would mean 1. using an .mp4 wrapper and not a .mkv, 2. limiting the encode options/levels to those that the 360/PS3 can handle, and 3. not embedding fonts and such and using simpler subtitle streams. Which I imagine are all issues ScR3WiEuS saw with the PSP release mentioned, since it I believe has similar limitations (though of course the consoles can handle much larger files/resolutions), so it's not impossible, just a departure from how I usually see it done now.

But I imagine people like me are even more of a minority than those with old computers... and frankly, I'm generally happy to get to watch the shows I love irrelevant (though happier when I don't have to jump through as many hoops to watch them on the big TV).

[Starks]

I believe the fansub community and its groups are handling the transition quite well. While I was hoping H.264 adoption to a be a bit more widespread and nearly total by 2008, the pace is good because groups are wising up and realizing that creating incentives for people to download the HQ versions and punishing people for having crappy hardware actually works.

[hobbes_fan]

I ran a poll recently in the tech forum and from the responses the majority of people are able to run h.264
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=56319 (I would of liked better participation but 135 responses I think is a decent cross section at least of AS)

In terms of hardware SD resolution h264 doesn't look like an issue for 90%+ of responses. Once we get to HD resolution 1280x720 (I'd say 75% success rate) or 1920x1080 (50% success rate) then there's significant decreases in viewer capability.

Now hardware wise the capability is there, but what the poll doesn't take into account is the users. For borderline systems there are system tweaks that can help but you have to have some idea of how to do this.

I'm of the opinion that fansubbers dictate the releases not the d/l ers. If the d/l don't like they can do it themselves. It isn't that had to transcode to Xvid or AVI. Programs like alltoavi are out there. Yeah you lose quality but it's not as if you're striving for HQ with avi and Xvid anyway. Not to mention a simple $8 investment in coreavc which will basically give any P4 over 2,2ghz 720p capability. People need to get a little bit more self reliant instead of having everything handed to them on a silver platter by fansubbers.

[dauthik]

Originally Posted by Daiz

That's exactly why we should force those people to do what is good for them in the long run.

Now that's a scary line.

Anyway, to contribute, I'm not some technological genius or anything but when I first encountered a .mkv file (Kaleido Star) all I did was google it, follow some guide that told me to download the Matroska Pack and Ogg Vorbis along with some other random stuff, and I was all set. It took about 10 minutes. Super-easy.