Character Discussion - Kallen

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I feel the need to point out that the overall point Sol Falling is trying to make is that Lelouch's decision not to involve Kallen on his side is in accordance to Zero Requiem, not an anomaly to it.

Just to make sure everyone still realizes this fact.

Because "I will do whatever I must to win" equates perfectly to "I will not take my strongest knight to battle", right?

I realized what Sol's point was a while ago, doesn't change the fact that it is ignoring the entire agenda within ZR and the steps that Lelouch was taking to achieve that end. I guess Lelouch shouldn't have Geassed Nunally either, since that conflicts with his desires for her... or enslaved all those people...

Someone needs to explain to me how Kallen not being taken "fits in with ZR" when, by all of my own reasoning, I can't for the life of me understand why a warrior heading into a battle would leave behind his sword.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

All right, here's all I'm gonna say on topic. Someone once that the reason no important or sympathetic characters died during the whole ZR exchange was because if they had it would create a negative viewpoint of Lelouch and thus it would be harder for us to believe that what Lelouch did was right. I'd say the same thing goes for leaving Kallen out of the plan.

Think about it, Lelouch doesn't have to love Kallen to keep her out of the plan. Lets assume he did get her to come over to his side. First off it would just seem completely manipulative and totally selfish. He would be turning Kallen against her former comrades and in the end would be dragging her to hell with him. Yes, maybe it would have been a lot easier and a lot more practical for him and the real world perhaps this would have made sense. But this is a story and from a story-telling perspective it just doesn't work.

Completely manipulative and totally selfish... because that was what she wanted? Try again.

Turning Kallen against the comrades she turned her own back on when they betrayed him? The comrades that would have shot her dead? Try again.

Maybe it would have been a lot easier for a plan that he intended to do everything for in order to make it succeed, even geassing Nunally.

You're not trying very hard, are you?

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Yes Lelouch brought other people on board his plan, but they had their own reasonsn and their own ways out of it. Suzaku was looking to atone for his sins and was fully committed to the plan. C.C. had nowhere else to go and is a ghost to the world anyway. Jeremiah: 200% motherf*cking loyalty. What else needs to be said. Lloyd, Cecile, Sayoko and Nina had there reasons for being there, but they were all given a way out through their "treason". For Kallen it would have been a lot harder to get her a way out, especially since she would have followed him to hell.

But as I said, for Kallen it just doesn't. I don't think there's any way that Lelouch could've gotten her to his side and then for us to still sympathize with him. So there's your reason. I reiterate, from a story-telling perspective it just doesn't work.

They had their own reasons and their own ways out... like Kallen? Who had her own reasons to follow him and her own desires for an end? Suzaku was looking to atone... Kallen was looking to follow Lelouch to whatever end. How are these different?

Jeremiah 200% loyalty... as compared to Kallen's 200% loyalty? Uh hu? Jeremiah wasn't given a way out, either. He's "dead" and living under an alias, sure sounds like a great time. Who even said that Kallen wanted to get out of the way? She wanted to go down with him.

I am going to be a super asshole right here and now and say that you're post made: No sense at all.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

@ Nobodyman9
I was the one who said it
and while i agree with you
my problem is mostly with sol's claim that, IN universe, lelouch would have had no use for kallen
and hence, leaving her out doesnt mean much
from a story telling POV i agree with you
but from an IN story POV i dont agree with Sol's take of it becouse i think having kallen on his side would have made his work MUCH easier
and HENCE, leaving her OUT of it, IS meaningful
and the only case where lelouch actually does something that HURTS his chances of making zero-r a reality to protect one person's life
especially when you consider that the person in question has a combat value that is TWICE that of suzaku's

Ah, I thought it was you who said
Anyway, that's just the point. If Lelouch can't do it from a story-telling perspective; if he can't do it without losing sympathy then it just can't be done. And his reasons behind it, to a certain extent, become moot.

this is exactly my point
im talking about it in the real world/in universe meaning

Well, this ain't the real world buddy. Welcome to anime, kiss your sensibility good bye

Well, I have to go.

[bladeofdarkness]

@frost
dont be an ass hole to Nobodyman9
most of his points are actually valid
but only form an OUT OF STORY POV
IN story, leaving kallen out of the battle was bad stratigic move on lelouch's part

and about the sword analogy
he already HAD another sword
the question more fitting would be
why would a warrior heading into a battle hand over one of his two swords to the enemy.

@Nobodyman9
like i said
i agree with the out of story points
but you still have to rationalize it IN universe
otherwise the story makes no sense becouse the characters have no motivation for their actions

if anything, the story telling reason why they needed kallen to oppose him was to have that last lancelot vs guren fight

[youngde]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I feel the need to point out that the overall point Sol Falling is trying to make is that Lelouch's decision not to involve Kallen on his side is in accordance to Zero Requiem, not an anomaly to it.

Just to make sure everyone still realizes this fact.

It IS an anomoly that he was willing to let Suzaku, his best friend and one of the two best pilots in the series help him, save the world, but be forever outcast by, but NOT do the same for Kallen, his ??? and the other best pilot in the series. Let's not forget that either one could tear through an army by his/herself. Having BOTH on his side instead of on opposing sides and possibly negating each other was a signficant risk to the overall plan of saving the world. However, Lelouch apparantly thought the risk was worth it.

In other words, he bypassed the easier goal of a peaceful world in which Kallen is forever outcast like Suzaku in favor of the harder goal of a peaceful world in which Kallen can live in a free Japan with her mother, despite the significantly increased risk of total annilation of freedom via Schneizel and his big ass bombs.

The anomoly lies in his willingness to allow his best friend to have his life ruined for a their goal, but not Kallen, when her contribution would have made things significantly easier.

youngde, signing off.

[azul120]

Lelouch wanted Kallen to have a shot at happiness had she survived. He didn't want it on himself if he knew that one of his most faithful comrades unnecessarily went down with him, and so I guess he was willing to play the odds there. Suzaku WANTED to pay penance somehow. He clearly wouldn't have allowed Lelouch to give him an easy way out. Jeremiah, well, I think Lelouch knew he could handle himself and exile himself from society once his duty was done, being a cyborg and all.

Nunnally getting Geassed? Well, it was simply to relieve her of the FLEIJA trigger, and essentially the responsibility of handling it, off of her hands. And he was able to do it without regrets after hearing Nunnally's own desire, as well as her personal resolve. As such, he gave her a way out as well.

[yvj]

It's meaningful because its one of the more illogical things he could have done. Of course we don't want to see Lelouch as the Ultimate asshole, but he is a huge asshole and on the occasion where it would hurt him not to be an asshole, he hurts himself.

And we're working under the assumption that Kallen would have to die at the end of ZR. There's many possibilities storyline wise you can throw out as speculative alternatives. Lelouch could have convinced her otherwise or had her death faked. Faked her being a traitor later on and had her imprisoned for insubordination or a fake assaination attempt a few months later. (Are you telling me that is too far fetched for CG?). He could have done thousands of different things as Emperor of the WORLD to keep Kallen out of the way when he died.

The only thing that would have to be resolved is Kallen's integrity. And that's the real important issue. Now if Lelouch told the truth and Kallen decided that his ideals still fit with her own. That she was still willing to sacrifice it all again for a better world that Lelouch has a hand at creating. Then how can anyone blame her for her actions.

If we can sympathize with Lelouch and Suzaku working on ZR would it be too much to ask the same for Kallen?

But then again Kallen as a character won't win no matter what she does. As there are people now who hate her because she "betrayed Lelouch"

Lelouch gambles on her not sticking radiation in his face so she could live a life better than she ever had. But of course it doesn't proooooooooove he loved her.

Obviously though I wouldn't fully trust the CG writers too much with this kind of plot on their hands seeing how last arc of R2 wasn't up to snuff.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

@frost
dont be an ass hole to Nobodyman9
most of his points are actually valid
but only form an OUT OF STORY POV
IN story, leaving kallen out of the battle was bad stratigic move on lelouch's part

and about the sword analogy
he already HAD another sword
the question more fitting would be
why would a warrior heading into a battle hand over one of his two swords to the enemy.

The points are not valid, especially not from our perspective where we know what these characters each wanted. It would make sense from an in story perspective where it can be argued that one person does not truly understand the other's desires.

But, from our perspective where we fully understand what each character wanted, saying that Lelouch's encorporation of Kallen would diminish our appreciation for him or our ability to sympathise and/or respect what he did because "named characters died" is awkward at the very least.

The examples cited, for example, are poor ones because each and every one of them apply to Kallen as much as they apply to the reasons as to why it is ok for the named people to be incorporated. If you look, Nobody never provided a reason for why Kallen COULD NOT be taken based on his own criteria for the other people.

I will break it down, one point at a time:

Think about it, Lelouch doesn't have to love Kallen to keep her out of the plan. Lets assume he did get her to come over to his side. First off it would just seem completely manipulative and totally selfish. He would be turning Kallen against her former comrades and in the end would be dragging her to hell with him. Yes, maybe it would have been a lot easier and a lot more practical for him and the real world perhaps this would have made sense. But this is a story and from a story-telling perspective it just doesn't work.

Ignoring why Nobody is even here in the first place, the ever so tentative "OMG LELOUCH MIGHT LOVE KALLEN!", we'll look past to the point he raises.

"First off it would just seem completely manipulative and totally selfish. He would be turning Kallen against her former comrades and in the end would be dragging her to hell with him." ~ To us, this should not and cannot seem manipulative and selfish when this is what Kallen wanted. It was her decision to meet him and to offer her allegiance to him. She turned her own back on the Order, of her own free will, and saying that Lelouch accepting her is "manipulative and totally selfish" is moot because he's not manipulating her nor is he being selfish in accepting her. Selfish and manipulation would imply that he accepts her against her will, or tricks her, or swindles her. This is all from an Audience Perspective.

"Yes, maybe it would have been a lot easier and a lot more practical for him and the real world perhaps this would have made sense. But this is a story and from a story-telling perspective it just doesn't work." ~ From a story telling perspective that follows on this train of thought then 1.) geassing people in servitude, 2.) geassing nunally, 3.) murdering mass numbers of people, 4.) etc... would not work from a story-telling perspective. Because these are all "manipulative and slefish" actions for his own ideal of what the world should be like. Nobody is picking and chosing what applies to Kallen, but he's ignoring the overall.

Yes Lelouch brought other people on board his plan, but they had their own reasonsn and their own ways out of it. Suzaku was looking to atone for his sins and was fully committed to the plan. C.C. had nowhere else to go and is a ghost to the world anyway. Jeremiah: 200% motherf*cking loyalty. What else needs to be said. Lloyd, Cecile, Sayoko and Nina had there reasons for being there, but they were all given a way out through their "treason". For Kallen it would have been a lot harder to get her a way out, especially since she would have followed him to hell.

But as I said, for Kallen it just doesn't. I don't think there's any way that Lelouch could've gotten her to his side and then for us to still sympathize with him. So there's your reason. I reiterate, from a story-telling perspective it just doesn't work.

Now for this portion, every reason given CAN be applied to Kallen incredibly easily, not to mention that some points are absolutely terrible.

"Suzaku was looking to atone for his sins and was fully committed to the plan." ~ Kallen was looking to follow Lelouch and would have probably been commited to the plan.

"Jeremiah: 200% motherf*cking loyalty." ~ Kallen.

So he doesn't make any distinction, outside of C.C., that does not equally apply to Kallen as a more than viable reason for her to be included. Not to mention that Jeremiah's "why its ok for him to be on this side" is complete crap.

"Lloyd, Cecile, Sayoko and Nina had there reasons for being there, but they were all given a way out through their "treason". For Kallen it would have been a lot harder to get her a way out, especially since she would have followed him to hell." ~ The only reason that they got away with their "treason" reasoning, was because Lelouch's plan hit ground and was only pulled off by a hair's breathe. Had the plan succeeded, they would not have had anything other than "we were geassed", and guess what? That can apply to Kallen as well.

Nobody did not bring up any actual reason for why for the audience it would be bad for Kallen to have joined, all his reasons provided for why it was ok for other characters, equally apply to Kallen.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Spoiler for counterpoint wall text:

The points are not valid, especially not from our perspective where we know what these characters each wanted. It would make sense from an in story perspective where it can be argued that one person does not truly understand the other's desires.

But, from our perspective where we fully understand what each character wanted, saying that Lelouch's encorporation of Kallen would diminish our appreciation for him or our ability to sympathise and/or respect what he did because "named characters died" is awkward at the very least.

The examples cited, for example, are poor ones because each and every one of them apply to Kallen as much as they apply to the reasons as to why it is ok for the named people to be incorporated. If you look, Nobody never provided a reason for why Kallen COULD NOT be taken based on his own criteria for the other people.

I will break it down, one point at a time:


Ignoring why Nobody is even here in the first place, the ever so tentative "OMG LELOUCH MIGHT LOVE KALLEN!", we'll look past to the point he raises.

"First off it would just seem completely manipulative and totally selfish. He would be turning Kallen against her former comrades and in the end would be dragging her to hell with him." ~ To us, this should and cannot seem manipulative and selfish when this is what Kallen wanted. It was her decision to meet him and to offer her allegiance to him. She turned her own back on the Order, of her own free will, and saying that Lelouch accepting her is "manipulative and totally selfish" is moot because he's not manipulating her nor is he being selfish in accepting her. Selfish and manipulation would imply that he accepts her against her will, or tricks her, or swindles her. This is all from an Audience Perspective.

"Yes, maybe it would have been a lot easier and a lot more practical for him and the real world perhaps this would have made sense. But this is a story and from a story-telling perspective it just doesn't work." ~ From a story telling perspective that follows on this train of thought then 1.) geassing people in servitude, 2.) geassing nunally, 3.) murdering mass numbers of people, 4.) etc... would not work from a story-telling perspective. Because these are all "manipulative and slefish" actions for his own ideal of what the world should be like. Nobody is picking and chosing what applies to Kallen, but he's ignoring the overall.



Now for this portion, every reason given CAN be applied to Kallen incredibly easily, not to mention that some points are absolutely terrible.

"Suzaku was looking to atone for his sins and was fully committed to the plan." ~ Kallen was looking to follow Lelouch and would have probably been commited to the plan.

"Jeremiah: 200% motherf*cking loyalty." ~ Kallen.

So he doesn't make any distinction, outside of C.C., that does not equally apply to Kallen as a more than viable reason for her to be included. Not to mention that Jeremiah's "why its ok for him to be on this side" is complete crap.

"Lloyd, Cecile, Sayoko and Nina had there reasons for being there, but they were all given a way out through their "treason". For Kallen it would have been a lot harder to get her a way out, especially since she would have followed him to hell." ~ The only reason that they got away with their "treason" reasoning, was because Lelouch's plan hit ground and was only pulled off by a hair's breathe. Had the plan succeeded, they would not have had anything other than "we were geassed", and guess what? That can apply to Kallen as well.

Nobody did not bring up any actual reason for why for the audience it would be bad for Kallen to have joined, all his reasons provided for why it was ok for other characters, equally apply to Kallen.

Ok Frost I totally understand where you are coming from and I would agree with you on the most part. But I gotta agree with Blade that there is some merit to what Nobody sez.

Of course there's a hint "Oh noez he didn't love her" in his posts but there's more the tad implication of "he did" in our stuff.

[bladeofdarkness]

while i agree with you that none of the points he raised make sense IN story
it makes some sense OUT OF IT
lelouch was an unlikable ass in the final arc with his actions
but in the end he didnt end up killing any named character save diethard and they all get semi-happy to happy endings becouse of him
which makes him more likable and sympathetic
and at THAT point in the story, he needed all the help he could GET at being sympathetic

IN universe it didnt make much sense for him to exclude kallen while recruting so many others to his goal
which is why i keep saying that it was an actions dictated by emotion rather then logic
but OUT universe, it makes him more likable when you see kallen happy and free in the epilouge then to would seeing her die with him in the end
it shows that despite all the horrible shit that he did, he did at least ONE thing right
one deceision he made, not out of self interest (since ZERO-R is something HE wanted, and commited all those crimes to achive), but a decesion that goes AGAINST his interests for the sake of someone ELSE's happiness
which i suspect is part of the reason why they have kallen tell the epilouge, as well as giving her a longer epiloge then the rest of the cast combined (except C.C)

again
this is all OUT of universe logic
in verse it was a stratigic mistake that HAS no logical reasons for

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by yvj

Ok Frost I totally understand where you are coming from and I would agree with you on the most part. But I gotta agree with Blade that there is some merit to what Nobody sez.

Of course there's a hint "Oh noez he didn't love her" in his posts but there's more the tad implication of "he did" in our stuff.

Nobody's point has merit, but depsite that it is a shallow point. For one, the audience perspective argument cannot work unless we are shallow and focus only on named characters. If you look at it on the whole, you cannot say "he did it so that we can sympathize" when on the side he did so many things that are completely demonic, that's pretty much ignoring the entire point of why the world hated him.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

while i agree with you that none of the points he raised make sense IN story
it makes some sense OUT OF IT
lelouch was an unlikable ass in the final arc with his actions
but in the end he didnt end up killing any named character save diethard and they all get semi-happy to happy endings becouse of him
which makes him more likable and sympathetic

IN universe it didnt make much sense for him to exclude kallen while recruting so many others to his goal
which is why i keep saying that it was an actions dictated by emotion rather then logic
but OUT universe, it makes him more likable when you see kallen happy and free in the epilouge then to would seeing her die with him in the end
it shows that despite all the horrible shit that he did, he did at least ONE thing right
one deceision he made, not out of self interest (since ZERO-R is something HE wanted, and commited all those crimes to achive), but a decesion that goes AGAINST his interests for the sake of someone ELSE's happiness
which i suspect is part of the reason why they have kallen tell the epilouge, as well as giving her a longer epiloge then the rest of the cast combined

I'll start of with saying that arguing "out of universe" is the most pointless endevour short of beating your head into a wall. Second, I understand that it makes him sympathetic and likable because no one died that we cared about, but that does not disolve the fact that he also massacred the future of millions for that end. It's shallow to find him likable because a handful of people with names lived, while a million mooks died.

One other thing, though:

Also, from the out of world perspective, Nobody was bringing up that we had reasons for thinking that Lelouch was being "selfish/manipulative" but that point, from our perspective is incorrect because we know that that was what she wanted. Him going against her own desires, would be manipulative and selfish AND that was what he did. So Nobody's point is reactively contradictory. Further, our out of perspective understanding of why characters joined and his saying that he cannot see how it would apply to Kallen, when most of his own cited reasons apply 100% to Kallen. This is all OUT of universe, and is what I was arguing against.

[egotist]

Then the only conclusion coming from this snowball of posts, is that he did love her, so he kept her out for the sake of her future. While the other side, does claim that if he really did love her, he would be honest with her and would have let her in?

[bladeofdarkness]

this is not about love (or at least not mostly)
its about the fact that lelouch excluded kallen from ZERO-R without having a LOGICAL reason for doing so
HENCE the decesion is an emotional one rather then a logical one
read into it what you may

@frost
out of universe is the ONLY part about nobodyman9's post that i agree with
in story i agree with you
there WAS no good reason for excluding her
certaintly not one that justifies the loss of such a HUGE advantege
but again, its not a LOGICAL choice
its an EMOTIONAL one

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Nobody's point has merit, but depsite that it is a shallow point. For one, the audience perspective argument cannot work unless we are shallow and focus only on named characters. If you look at it on the whole, you cannot say "he did it so that we can sympathize" when on the side he did so many things that are completely demonic, that's pretty much ignoring the entire point of why the world hated him.

I agree.

Lelouch steeled himself to become a demon. I saw the the dub the other day and Lelouch mentioned to C.C if he had no choice but to kill Nunnaly he would for ZR. (I don't recall if this was exactly how it went in the subs) But earlier he turns around and hands Schni a pissed off rook to say the least.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

this is not about love (or at least not mostly)
its about the fact that lelouch excluded kallen from ZERO-R without having a LOGICAL reason for doing so
HENCE the decesion is an emotional one rather then a logical one
read into it what you may

On the nose

[bladeofdarkness]

ROOK ????

[yvj]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

ROOK ????

I was using a chess analogy dontcha know. I would have said Queen but I didn't want to seem biased

[egotist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

this is not about love (or at least not mostly)
its about the fact that lelouch excluded kallen from ZERO-R without having a LOGICAL reason for doing so
HENCE the decesion is an emotional one rather then a logical one
read into it what you may

Exactly my point. He was triggered by emotions at that moment. An emotion entrusted only to his closest people (rather Kallen, since we do talk about her) and yet was a silent one until the finale in a way.
Specific scenes concerning those two are designed to raise romantic questions and personally, i believe the representation of Kallen and Lelouch scenes in the second season equate the romantic plot that Lelouch was supposed to have in R2. The main one, to be more accurate.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by egotist

Exactly my point. He was triggered by emotions at that moment. An emotion entrusted only to his closest people (rather Kallen, since we do talk about her) and yet was a silent one until the finale in a way.
Specific scenes concerning those two are designed to raise romantic questions and personally, i believe the representation of Kallen and Lelouch scenes in the second season equate the romantic plot that Lelouch was supposed to have in R2. The main one, to be more accurate.

yes
except that, again, its not about the romance aspect of it (mostly not)
its about the fact lelouch actually does something that goes AGAINST his chances of making ZERO-R a reality
and that this is a ONE TIME EVENT
everything ELSE he does during that arc, he does for the sake of making his chances of winning GREATER
in ep 22 he actually does something that makes his chances SMALLER (losing someone who has a value of TWO suzaku's)
it doesnt really MATTER if its about romance or not
all that matters is that it HAPPENS
and that it only happens AT THAT POINT

[egotist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

yes
except that, again, its not about the romance aspect of it (mostly not)
its about the fact lelouch actually does something that goes AGAINST his chances of making ZERO-R a reality
and that this is a ONE TIME EVENT
everything ELSE he does during that arc, he does for the sake of making his chances of winning GREATER
in ep 22 he actually does something that makes his chances SMALLER (losing someone who has a value of TWO suzaku's)

No need to point it out to me that often, i do get it. xD
I am just referring to the outcome of the meaning, or rather the trigger in charge of Lelouch's certain action to take place. Apart from the technicalities.

[bladeofdarkness]

ok
i can dig it

Originally Posted by yvj

I was using a chess analogy dontcha know. I would have said Queen but I didn't want to seem biased

in chess you get TWO rooks (toudo and xing-ke)
but only ONE queen

[egotist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

ok
i can dig it

I did figure actually. xD
Looking back at Kallen's poem btw, i think it is really impressive how all of it, is dedicated to Lelouch. Sure, i mean the regret messages were supposed to be like this, but still Kallen states in a poetic way, that Lelouch shaped her perception of love. And i do get a regret vibe from her, that she wished she could tell him this even for just one time. Then again, Lelouch must have known about it on some level. Still, i can't help but feel sad for this couple. The way circumstances were getting on their way again and again.