Character Discussion - Kallen

[egotist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

which was my theory
that she was already used to using the guren like an extension of herself
and hence only had to get used to the NEW systems
where as any other pilot would have had to get used to EVERYTHING all at once

its the same with suzaku and the lancelot
he's so used to using it like an extension of himself after all this time
that when Lloyd goes to build him a CUSTOM KMF for his specific use
he ends up making a machine that is EXACTLY like the old lancelot
only with more advance versions of the same weapon systems

Alright, but your theory is incomplete or? What do you mean exactly? That she used to pilot it, in an early age or something similar? Because the show shows she receives it in Stage 10 and she learns the tutorial and all that back then.

[Sol Falling]

lol so cool, we're done with all the arguing then? I'm going to just very generally clarify the position my posts were arguing towards, as there seems to be some confusion on that, but the debate over all the little details I'll leave for another time.

On Zero Requiem, basically I don't believe in this sort of sharp distinction between what's emotional and what's logical. I think emotions form the motivation for any meaningful goal in life and 'logic' is just the means to get there. There is no choosing one over the other; logic is really just an expression of emotion.

Accordingly, I hold that Kallen's exclusion from Zero: R made both emotional and logical sense; my attempts to show that excluding Kallen wasn't bone stupid from a planning perspective do nothing to dispute that Lelouch did in fact consider Kallen living in a peaceful world his 'little' (in the sense of precious or cherished, sure) dream.

On the romance angle, I stand firmly on the stance that Lelouch didn't love anybody. Love is an attractive power, and to the end Lelouch pushed things away. If Lelouch had truly understood that 'love is power', he would never have given freely his own life.

[bladeofdarkness]

kallen gets the guren in stage 10
she spends over a year piloting it and learning to use it like an extension of her own body
to a greater level then any other pilot can use THEIR machine

then the guren gets an upgrade to the SEITEN version
and Lloyd says that its impossible to pilot becouse its too powerful and no one would be able to handle it
except that KALLEN already knows how to use the OLD guren like the back of her hand
so getting used to using the NEW one is simply a matter of learning to use the NEW fetures while already in full control of the OLD ones
she knows how to use the OLD weapon systems like its second nature
she just has to get used to the new
she knows how to pilot it like its second nature
she just has to get used to the SPEED that the new version can provide her with

i already gave this analogy

its like learning juggling while riding a skateboard
except that for any other pilot, they would have had to LEARN how to juggle WHILE learning how to ride a skateboard at the same time
kallen is already an olimpic level juggler
she just has to learn how to skate board while doing it

@Sol
and you dont consider a man who treats EVERYONE like game pieces (on one level or another) to be OOC when he hands over one of his strongest pieces to the enemy ?
you dont consider taking such a risk when the odds against him are already pretty high and the stakes are the fate of the world, as bone stupid from a planning perspective ?
during the biggest challenge of his life ?

[egotist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

kallen gets the guren in stage 10
she spends over a year piloting it and learning to use it like an extension of her own body
to a greater level then any other pilot can use THEIR machine

then the guren gets an upgrade to the SEITEN version
and Lloyd says that its impossible to pilot becouse its too powerful and no one would be able to handle it
except that KALLEN already knows how to use the OLD guren like the back of her hand
so getting used to using the NEW one is simply a matter of learning to use the NEW fetures while already in full control of the OLD ones
she knows how to use the OLD weapon systems like its second nature
she just has to get used to the new
she knows how to pilot it like its second nature
she just has to get used to the SPEED that the new version can provide her with

Alright and i agree with you, since this is what the show did show and what actually did happen. It is just the way you worded it, with the word "theory", made it seem like something different. Again, Kallen has a gift in piloting and Guren brings that gift in full blossom. It is her trademark, apart from the fact that Lelouch did give her that "gift", it is a part of who she is. No accident, that in the epilogue she has it around her neck.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by egotist

Alright and i agree with you, since this is what the show did show and what actually did happen. It is just the way you worded it, with the word "theory", made it seem like something different. Again, Kallen has a gift in piloting and Guren brings that gift in full blossom. It is her trademark, apart from the fact that Lelouch did give her that "gift", it is a part of who she is. No accident, that in the epilogue she has it around her neck.

good call on that

[Lolipopo]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

On the romance angle, I stand firmly on the stance that Lelouch didn't love anybody. Love is an attractive power, and to the end Lelouch pushed things away. If Lelouch had truly understood that 'love is power', he would never have given freely his own life.

If you are going to use this kind of logic, you are assuming he didn't love Nunally then ?
The girl was his raison d'être and we know he loved her with all his heart, and still he choose to die.
No, it doesn't work. Lelouch showed his love by pushing those he loved away, despite his almighty logic sense, the fact he ignored willingly some decisive factor (like the most powerful mecha ever with the enemy faction) is a proof of strong feelings. (And for the nature of those feelings well...hints in the story and side material...)

[egotist]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

good call on that

But it is what the show showed basically. xD

About what was stated above, Lelouch kept Kallen outside of Zero Requiem because she was too precious to him, to drag her into this. He did say in the extended preview of Turn 23, that Suzaku and Kallen were his pillars. (apart from Nunally) Suzaku wanted to get punished and he allowed himself to merge into ZR. Kallen wanted to get used as well, she went to him in Turn 22 basically for this reason, had Lelouch let her in and let her understand him and his plan. (along with the reply to her question) He did not. That is a clear differentiation there. No matter how and where you look at it.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by egotist

But it is what the show showed basically. xD

About what was stated above, Lelouch kept Kallen outside of Zero Requiem because she was too precious to him, to drag her into this. He did say in the extended preview of Turn 23, that Suzaku and Kallen were his pillows. (apart from Nunally) Suzaku wanted to get punished and he allowed himself to merge into ZR. Kallen wanted to get used as well, she went to him in Turn 22 basically for this reason, had Lelouch let her in and let her understand him and his plan. (along with the reply to her question) He did not. That is a clear differentiation there. No matter how and where you look at it.

i think you mean pillers (or however you spell it)

and i agree
lelouch spent the entire show using everyone
and he was "using" kallen from day one (as of season 2, its completely of her own will)
for him to suddenly deceide that he ISNT willing to use her even when she is practiclly BEGGING him to
is quite a leap
especially form a man who considers almost everyone as chess pieces (himself included)
and ESPECIALLY when you remember whats at stake

[Sol Falling]

Lelouch doesn't treat everyone like game pieces. If you just take the four 'equals' and 'pillars of existence', why not? is pretty clear as well: 'equals' because he simply isn't able to, 'pillars of existence' because they define him in the first place.

Rejecting Kallen wasn't exactly 'handing her over' either. Even with the Black Knights, Kallen was pretty much acting at her own discretion.

[egotist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Lelouch doesn't treat everyone like game pieces. If you just take the four 'equals' and 'pillars of existence', why not? is pretty clear as well: 'equals' because he simply isn't able to, 'pillars of existence' because they define him in the first place.

Rejecting Kallen wasn't exactly 'handing her over' either. Even with the Black Knights, Kallen was pretty much acting at her own discretion.

Four? Nunally, Suzaku and Kallen make four? We go by Lelouch's words and metaphorically, obviously his friends on Student Council, C.C and maybe Rolo in the end, had an impact on him, but his pillars, as pillars from a spherical kind of view, loving him and protecting him, were the three he did actually mention.

[bladeofdarkness]

lelouch treats EVERYONE as a chess piece
even HIMSELF
everyone is a piece on his chess board and everyone is a tool in making his plans abnd goals come true
that goes for himself (sacrifices his king to win the game)
that goes for his best friend (who he tried to guilt trip into joining him in season 1)
that goes for his friends in ashford (who he used as hostages, and kidnapped nina)
that goes for his partner (she's helping him in his plan almost all the time in many ways, and she fights for him in the final battle)
that goes for his "brother" (like i need to say)
for his servents and followers
for his entire ARMY
and for most of the show, it goes for kallen as well
until in the final arc he suddenly isnt willing to use her EVEN WHEN SHE WANTS HIM TO

i dont say chess piece is in "just a pawn"
he does CARE about the as people
but everyone is a tool to be used in some way

the only one who he used to think was outside of teh board, was nunnaly
and in season 2 there are two additions to that rule
sheirly and kallen

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

If you are going to use this kind of logic, you are assuming he didn't love Nunally then ?

Basically, yes.

'Pushing away the things you don't want to lose' is a contradiction in itself, coming from a person who'd given up on love (and more generally life) in the first place. Sure, it might be an expression of feelings, but it is ultimately a denial of them.

Also, Lelouch's inability to see past Nunally as a weak thing to be avenged/protected until practically his last moments with her made his 'love' highly questionable from the beginning.

[egotist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Basically, yes.

'Pushing away the things you don't want to lose' is a contradiction in itself, coming from a person who'd given up on love (and more generally life) in the first place. Sure, it might be an expression of feelings, but it is ultimately a denial of them.

Lelouch's inability to see past Nunally as a weak thing to be avenged/protected until practically his last moments with her made his 'love' highly questionable from the beginning.

Not really. Lelouch had love within him and for the people he truly cared, he just chose to fake it and pretend it was not there, so he could proceed with his world recreation plan. Like he says in the preview finale, his goal in life was basically this. And about Nunally, he tells her twice the word aishiteru and you can see he is really suffering, the last time he says this, exactly because it is the last time he will see her and because he does indeed love her the most. Apart from those moments, that precious word is only mentioned in Kallen's poem again, isn't that right?

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

lelouch treats EVERYONE as a chess piece
even HIMSELF
everyone is a piece on his chess board and everyone is a tool in making his plans abnd goals come true
that goes for himself (sacrifices his king to win the game)
that goes for his best friend (who he tried to guilt trip into joining him in season 1)
that goes for his friends in ashford (who he used as hostages, and kidnapped nina)
that goes for his partner (she's helping him in his plan almost all the time in many ways, and she fights for him in the final battle)
that goes for his "brother" (like i need to say)
for his servents and followers
for his entire ARMY
and for most of the show, it goes for kallen as well
until in the final arc he suddenly isnt willing to use her EVEN WHEN SHE WANTS HIM TO

i dont say chess piece is in "just a pawn"
he does CARE about the as people
but everyone is a tool to be used in some way

the only one who he used to think was outside of teh board, was nunnaly
and in season 2 there are two additions to that rule
sheirly and kallen

lol. You can't sacrifice your king to win the game in chess.

Kallen and Nunally were still on the board for Zero: R -- they were just on the other side. If Lelouch really wanted to keep Kallen out of it, he would have recruited her and then benched her.

This is getting a bit too crowded. I don't think the issue was Lelouch refusing to see Kallen as a chess piece. It's more like, he refused to see her as white (lol, these colour analogies are a little messed up: black, in my interpretation, are the righteous and sinless). I wouldn't call that OOC 'cause Jupiter's where Lelouch first realized the distinction.

Originally Posted by egotist

Not really. Lelouch had love within him and for the people he truly cared, he just chose to fake it and pretend it was not there, so he could proceed with his world recreation plan. Like he says in the preview finale, his goal in life was basically this. And about Nunally, he tells her twice the word aishiteru and you can see he is really suffering, the last time he says this, exactly because it is the last time he will see her and because he does indeed love her the most. Apart from those moments, that precious word is only mentioned in Kallen's poem again, isn't that right?

Lelouch may have had love within him, but he never stayed true to it. That just shows that he never really understood, because 'love is power' and should always have enabled him. Because Lelouch deliberately chose an end to which love could never deliver him, I just really can't say he loved.

Guh. We're covering the same threads again, guys. I'm logging out.

[bladeofdarkness]

Sacrificing his king won that game
It doesnt work in chess, but that wasnt achess game
Lelouch dying was the final move

Recruiting kallen would have HELPED him, but it would hurt her
The girl was ready to DIE with him in ep 19, do you really think shed just agree to sit out on the BENCH rather then help, just becouse it would protect HER ?
Has she EVER been shown to place her life as a higher priority over ANYTHING ?
She would have chosen to fight and die by his side
Which would have helped his plan, but cost her her life

And you have to remember that real combat aint chess
Lelouch is still BUILDING his forces and gathring resorces when kallen shows up
Kallen can be what ever color she wants
And she's practicly telling him "here i am, use me"
lelouch never had problem with having her on his side before
And he is WELL beyond the point where he shows concern for other peoples lives in the face of his plan (he is brainwashing people by the fleet load)
Why would he have trouble now, when he could use her help more rhen ever
The stakes are higher and the challenge is greater then ever before
Kallen ended up on the "black" sidw by lelouchs choice
If given the option, she would have chosen to be "white"

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Basically, yes.

'Pushing away the things you don't want to lose' is a contradiction in itself, coming from a person who'd given up on love (and more generally life) in the first place. Sure, it might be an expression of feelings, but it is ultimately a denial of them.

Also, Lelouch's inability to see past Nunally as a weak thing to be avenged/protected until practically his last moments with her made his 'love' highly questionable from the beginning.

Basically, you're saying Lelouch was also not a human.

'Survival' is a basic human instict, so seeking a plan like ZR is a contradiction to basic human instict, coming from a man who'd give up on life. So, therefore he cannot be a human because he stopped trying to survive.

Your argument doesn't work.

You're being superficial if you think Lelouch's love wasn't real. He may not display it in orthodox ways like everyone else, but it is very much real. Now, if you want to take it up with the author that Lelouch did not love Nunally, then feel free to. But until you show him that he's wrong about his own story, then I'll err on his side.

One other point of note, 'pushing away/leaving behind the ones you love because you don't want to lose them' is not a contradiction, no more than 'I want the people I love to be happy, even if I cannot be part of their life', and no more silly to call a contradiction that my half-assed 'Lelouch isn't human' point. It's a proverb. Its an age old romantic cliche that's been used since the days of old. Countless war romance stories, the soldier will leave behind his love and life to fight, die, and win. I can go through countless stories where a character marches knowlingly to his death and he pushes away/leaves behind the ones he cares for because he doesn't want them to suffer his fate.

[youngde]

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
--2.John 15:13 (King James)

[kakakka]

'Survival' is a basic human instict, so seeking a plan like ZR is a contradiction to basic human instict, coming from a man who'd give up on life. So, therefore he cannot be a human because he stopped trying to survive.

Not really true.

Yes, 'survival' is a basic human instinct. But 'self-survival' is not really the main point to that. Its more of trying to make one's main priority live on. If someone chooses to lay down his/her life for the sake of a greater cause, I can say its also a 'survival instinct' in a way that individual wants that ideal/purpose to live on.

(Even animals do the same. Some mammals bet their lives just for their flock to live on. 'Survival instincts' are there, but not just cored to (individual) self-survival.)

PS. Not really want to argue, just want to point that one phrase right there....

[bladeofdarkness]

thats very nice
Its also not really relevent

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by kakakka

Not really true.

Yes, 'survival' is a basic human instinct. But 'self-survival' is not really the main point to that. Its more of trying to make one's main priority live on. If someone chooses to lay down his/her life for the sake of a greater cause, I can say its also a 'survival instinct' in a way that individual wants that ideal/purpose to live on.

(Even animals do the same. Some mammals bet their lives just for their flock to live on. 'Survival instincts' are there, but not just cored to (individual) self-survival.)

PS. Not really want to argue, just want to point that one phrase right there....

It's alright, but I was not talking about logical action. I was speaking on primal instinct. Humans can get around their primal urges through reasoning, but when it comes down to it, a human will react in a way to save themselves from danger when they are faced with it. I was speaking strictly primaly, the reason is because 'love' is not a logical action but can be put aside by logic. Much like how you said that my survival idea can also be overturned by logic/thought, and that was my point.

Which is why I made my rather shallow counter to Sol's. The fact that Lelouch did not show his love in the traditional/basic essence does not mean that he did not love people. Much as how, if he's not trying to survive in the traditional/basic human response to danger of life does not necessarily not make him human by basic definition.