[Manga] Who is Tobi?

[Prince Kuku]

Hmph, that makes sense. But still what would be the explanation of the half body of madara/

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Akachou

I think I solved the riddle behind Madara's body. It's actually pretty obvious.

Check Chapter 487/Page 14


Let's say Madara stole the 1st Hokage's DNA in battle. He created Zetsu. Zetsu created new bodies for Madara in order to make him survive a whole century without aging. The only answer to that way of surviving the decades is a mind transfer technique like Orochimaru's. Nothing impossible so far.

nice pull…unfortunately it only gets us to square 1.5…
1. whos body did he touch (ie. who is tobi?)
2. i like the mind transfer idea…sharingan eye jutsu can already "hypnotize" opponents, if it were powerful enough (EMS), why wouldnt it be able to transfer consciousness? besides, it has always bothered me how a cold and calculating madara, could behave as a goofball unless there was another conscious on board that was allowed to due the steering on occasion…
3. i want to believe zetsu is his own species, but if you have shodai dna plus sharingan = izanagi, i guess you could use wood jutsu to make a plant man...

[Akachou]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

nice pull…unfortunately it only gets us to square 1.5…
1. whos body did he touch (ie. who is tobi?)
2. i like the mind transfer idea…sharingan eye jutsu can already "hypnotize" opponents, if it were powerful enough (EMS), why wouldnt it be able to transfer consciousness? besides, it has always bothered me how a cold and calculating madara, could behave as a goofball unless there was another conscious on board that was allowed to due the steering on occasion…
3. i want to believe zetsu is his own species, but if you have shodai dna plus sharingan = izanagi, i guess you could use wood jutsu to make a plant man...

Well, my theory was and is that Zetsu was created by the original Madara who made him touch his body and it doesn't matter if he was injured, crippled or just healthy. He had similar aims to Orochimaru. He wanted to be immortal. He stole the 1st Hokage's DNA in the epic battle, created Zetsu, made him copy Madara and switched bodies.
There is not only one Zetsu, there are thousands of white Zetsus. We don't even know if they age or if they don't age. It's possible that they don't age because they are not human.

I think that Madara still has interest in Sasuke. I simply don't see a reason for him to be so interested in Sasuke acquiring the EMS because Madara is said to be a shell of his former self (itachi) and thus I believe that EMS is not only very powerful but more powerful than his current self. I believe that he wants that power back and thus wants Sasuke to have that power. In fact, that's just one theory of many and what tells me that I could be wrong is the fact that he just grabbed the Rin'negan and called it one of the six paths. Yet it's possible that Sharingan is not one of the paths but only Mangekyou Sharingan, but I think EMS needs two eyes in order to work best.

In fact I have to admit that Kakashi's so-called MS ability looks quite similar to Madara's. It's not entirely impossible that Uchiha Obito needed to be "killed in action" in order to be free. Missing-nins like Sasuke will be hunted down while dead people won't. It's actually something Uchiha Obito and Uchiha Madara share. They are both believed to be dead.
I consider it possible that both survived and met. Obito hated the ninja system. An understatement with Kakashi doesn't change the fact that he hated it before and that he also was angry about Kakashi. When his last mission started, he was late. Maybe he made some preparations or met his "master.
I don't know if Madara took his body or made his successor, in fact, I know nothing.
If Uchiha Madara has been revived by Kabuto it will be a fact that Uchiha Madara's soul is not in Tobi's body.

[captain carver]

ok i am new to the forum i read some of this topic but my thoughts on tobi isnt a choice....

tobi mentions to naruto how his and sasuke's fight will be a mirror of the past...maybe more than just the clan thing. maybe tobi is madara's younger brother and that his brother was killed. i dont remember if it was stated that the brother died or not but even if tobi said it he isnt exactly a credible source. then simply the body kabuto had would be madara's. and this could also explain why tobi is weaker then madara and not have shown the an EMS...

if someone were to say but his eyes were removed it could just be another uchiha's eyes in tobi...i mean tobi does seem to care now since he has a rinnegan too...

tobi said he wants to bring peace with his moon's eye plan but that seems weird since peace seems to be the path of the senju (even if the moon's eye peace is not truly peace)...the path of the uchiha for most of naruto has been revenge so making tobi madara's younger brother angry at the world fits that better...

just my opinion if any1 has any thoughts i like to hear them...any evidence to disprove this theory would be fine i dont remember exactly what was said about the brother after his eyes were taken but even so any of that info is taken from tobi who lies (ex. telling sasuke incident with ninetails wasnt caused by him)

[Prince Kuku]

ok i am new to the forum i read some of this topic but my thoughts on tobi isnt a choice....

tobi mentions to naruto how his and sasuke's fight will be a mirror of the past...maybe more than just the clan thing. maybe tobi is madara's younger brother and that his brother was killed. i dont remember if it was stated that the brother died or not but even if tobi said it he isnt exactly a credible source. then simply the body kabuto had would be madara's. and this could also explain why tobi is weaker then madara and not have shown the an EMS...

if someone were to say but his eyes were removed it could just be another uchiha's eyes in tobi...i mean tobi does seem to care now since he has a rinnegan too...

tobi said he wants to bring peace with his moon's eye plan but that seems weird since peace seems to be the path of the senju (even if the moon's eye peace is not truly peace)...the path of the uchiha for most of naruto has been revenge so making tobi madara's younger brother angry at the world fits that better...

just my opinion if any1 has any thoughts i like to hear them...any evidence to disprove this theory would be fine i dont remember exactly what was said about the brother after his eyes were taken but even so any of that info is taken from tobi who lies (ex. telling sasuke incident with ninetails wasnt caused by him)

I think you have point there, if you remember Tobi/Madara his younger brother gave his eyes (not forcefully/brutally get his younger eyes from what the rumor says). So I think that might be explain why his collecting the eye of sharingan and rinnegan and why from continous episode why tobi shows only the right eye. Maybe that sharingan he had was not from him .

[Yorg]

I've been reading/watching Naruto since day 1 of the anime series..and i've read soo many threads on this topic Uchiha Madara/Tobi and by reading, I believe that Tobi is uchiha madara in all aspec's minus the hair lol unless he got it cut and is now wearing a piece haha..but that's all i will have to say ask of right now but i was reading past chapters and i found this idk if helps anyone in this thread but ill post it.

Spoiler:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[AuroraFlash]

Besides all fictional stuff there is one real proof that Uchiha Madara is not Obito. Something that can't be denied by theories and beliefs.

Uchiha Madara's Voice Actors
English: Michael Yurchak (Tobi), Nolan North (Madara)
Japanese: Wataru Takagi (Tobi), Naoya Uchida (Madara)

Uchiha Obito's Voice Actors
English: Vic Mignogna
Japanese: Sōsuke Komori

There's no resemblance in the voices which means that they have different voices. Their voice actors are different, so they must be two different persons.

[Lumir]

Currently I have just re-watched the entire naruto series up to ep 141 where tobi (aka) madara is talking to sasuke about itachi, and have come up with something shocking. I will continue to ep 201 which is the most recent, skipping fillers ofc but what I have thought of is interesting

Here is something stunning that I dont think was brought up...

Tobi = Danzo = Madara

If you think, it all makes perfect sense. As a anime only viewer this idea could be utterly destroyed by some manga material yet I thought I would present my idea...

If we take a look at danzo and madara we come across similarities both in physical and their actual stand on things. First lets start with the physical.

Tobi:

Spoiler for Tobi:

Danzo:

Spoiler for Danzo:

Notice how tobi's sharingan is completely exposed while the mask covers the left side of his face? Also how danzo is the exact opposite using bandages to cover the right side of his face. Also notice the hair? Its very similar. Just recently in the anime we find out danzo has a sharingan in his right eye, hmmm. Now onto their stand on things.

Both madara and danzo dissagree with the current konaha and its ways. Both of them have/are trying to change it through force. This to me raises the questions about anbu-root what danzo planned to do with it and why it failed.

Further speculation: (sasuke manipulated)

Danzo has ties with orochimaru as this was mentioned and understood so far in the anime. His body is obviously mysterious and could be the reason why he was seeking orochimaru. This could also explain many things about how he is madara, has a sharingan, and is danzo all together.

Danzo/Tobi/Madara Is using sasuke (and taka, his group) to help him achieve his goal of destroying/rebuilding konoha, by manipulating the truth. In the anime we were told that the 9 tails incident 16yrs ago was caused by madara. We were told this when itachi was explaining to sasuke that event. THE VERY same event was told to him by Tobi/Madara/Danzo yet HE SAID it was a natural disaster that was used to bring the uchiha clan under suspicion, leading to itachi wiping out the entire clan. Later tobi/danzo/madara explained that this was a lie in order for sasuke not to learn the truth.

At this point we fans have to pick who to believe. Itachi (who obviously tried to protect his brother sasuke and also gave him all his optical powers before he died), or Tobi/Madara/Danzo in who fans have little to no information on.

The whole spectrum of things seems to have started with the loss of uchiha madara to Hashirama Senju (1st hokage), the treaty signed between the two clans, and the creation of the ninja village system, and even more so the 1st hokage not being madara.

Anyways thats my view on things so far as an anime only viewer. Lemme know what you think and if im completly off the mark. Oh and if you read the manga please when replying use the spoiler tab if your using manga material as information so i can choose to reveal that to myself. Thanks.

Now im off to watch up to ep 201.

[AuroraFlash]

Sorry, but manga will prove you wrong.

Besides...

Danzou's Voice Actors
English: William Frederick Knight
Japanese: Hiroshi Ito

[Lumir]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Sorry, but manga will prove you wrong.

Besides...

Danzou's Voice Actors
English: William Frederick Knight
Japanese: Hiroshi Ito

Ah i see, thanks. Like i said the idea could be completely destroyed by manga material. Would have been a nice twist though. Guess ill just have to wait and see how danzo got his sharingan, and for his role in this series to play out.

[Cael]

The anime already revealed that Danzo's Sharingan was Uchiha Shisui's. But if you were referring to EXACTLY HOW? Then I would assume Itachi had something to do with it.

Spoiler for Some Manga Some Theory:

So Danzo orders Itachi to spy, Itachi tells Danzo about the coup, the only way to stop the coup outside of negotiations is to kill the clan before they act, realizing this, Itachi seeks Madara whose presence he had discovered earlier? Madara begins teaching Itachi, tells him the secret to activating his MS? Itachi informs Danzo that he will have help taking out the clan? and that he will have to kill Shisui to become stronger, so Danzo takes that opportunity to gain a sharingan, (possibily before but most likely after the body was found, or Danzo found out there was a dead Uchiha and went grave robbing) he can't take both because it would then be visible, so he only takes one. The other eye may have gone to Itachi's helper by request. My guess is that Danzo met with Itachi and Tobi the night of the massacre but he didn't know it was Madara at the time (mask), and left the issue of preventing Itachi's helper from spilling any beans to Itachi's discretion, whether Itachi trusted him enough or would dispose of him later.

[Essenar]

Spoiler:

I still think it's feasible that Uchiha Madara isn't in his original body. That would explain the bolts/bandages.

In all honesty, I have a feeling Kishimoto was going to go somewhere with the Tobi/Obito idea, hence the similarities between the two, but he didn't think it through before drawing the character and when he realized the idea was lackluster, he's like "Oh yeah uh, it's Madara!"

If not, why all the inconsistencies about his image? Hides one eye, but apparently both eyes worked fine, has a stockpile of Sharingan, bolts on one half of his body, short spiky hair... It's just all weird.

There's probably a lot we don't know about this guy and it's not as simple as "Oh it's Madara and he lived all these years."

[AuroraFlash]

Different voices, my friend, different voices... and that in two languages...

It's either the best kept secret in the world and totally classified or just a matter of fact that they are two different persons.

[Essenar]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Different voices, my friend, different voices... and that in two languages...

It's either the best kept secret in the world and totally classified or just a matter of fact that they are two different persons.

Spoiler:

You realize the last time we heard Obito's voice, he was like 13 years old right?

And having his body taken over by Madara might change his voice as well. Is that not possible? I doubt Kishimoto would ruin a secret like the identity of Madara's body, over simply forgetting that people will recognize the voice actors.

And if it really is just Madara this whole time, why bother hiding his face so much? It's not like Kakashi where you've never seen his mouth or know anything about him. This dude has pictures all over the place and even a huge statue of his face. Why so much secrecy?

There's also the unidentified casket Kabuto opened. Who was in it? The possibilities:
Harashima
Obito
Madara's brother
Madara himself.

[Lumir]

Originally Posted by Cael

The anime already revealed that Danzo's Sharingan was Uchiha Shisui's. But if you were referring to EXACTLY HOW? Then I would assume Itachi had something to do with it.

Spoiler for Some Manga Some Theory:

So Danzo orders Itachi to spy, Itachi tells Danzo about the coup, the only way to stop the coup outside of negotiations is to kill the clan before they act, realizing this, Itachi seeks Madara whose presence he had discovered earlier? Madara begins teaching Itachi, tells him the secret to activating his MS? Itachi informs Danzo that he will have help taking out the clan? and that he will have to kill Shisui to become stronger, so Danzo takes that opportunity to gain a sharingan, (possibily before but most likely after the body was found, or Danzo found out there was a dead Uchiha and went grave robbing) he can't take both because it would then be visible, so he only takes one. The other eye may have gone to Itachi's helper by request. My guess is that Danzo met with Itachi and Tobi the night of the massacre but he didn't know it was Madara at the time (mask), and left the issue of preventing Itachi's helper from spilling any beans to Itachi's discretion, whether Itachi trusted him enough or would dispose of him later.

Just saw ep 201. Its Shisui's according to that guy with 1 eye byuakugan. Well at least we know for sure that the attack on konoha 16yrs ago was by madara, as itachi and yondime both confirmed it wasnt a natural occurrence. And the only one with enough power to control it at that time would have to be madara. So his purpose in lying to sasuke was to manipulate him. And now it seems like hes going to naruto (as we saw at the end of ep 201).

Kinda makes me laugh seeing so many people with 1 special eye that was originally not theirs. Makes me wonder if we will see someone with both a sharingan eye and a byuakugan eye, or maby mix in a rinnegan... lol its getting ridiculous. Makes me wonder how pain had his zombie soldiers each with a set of rinnegans.

[Artimus_Prime]

@Essenar: I doubt Kishimoto would ruin a secret like the identity of Madara's body, over simply forgetting that people will recognize the voice actors.

i agree. besides we see tobi with a completely different personality that who is suppose to be...the voices should be different right?

[Cael]

Since this is a Manga thread, I don't believe spoiler tags are required, but because I don't want to spoil anything to the anime only fans here, I'll continue to use them. But beware, this may end soon. That said..

Originally Posted by Essenar

Spoiler:

I still think it's feasible that Uchiha Madara isn't in his original body. That would explain the bolts/bandages.

If not, why all the inconsistencies about his image? Hides one eye, but apparently both eyes worked fine, has a stockpile of Sharingan, bolts on one half of his body, short spiky hair... It's just all weird.

Spoiler for Manga:

We've seen most of Tobi's face, the part we haven't seen was darkened out when most of his mask was destroyed. We saw him with another working sharingan, yet we never see him with MS or EMS. So the part that was darkened out had to be important to his secret. If he is a clone of Madara then that part of his face that's darkened could be; 1) Part of Madara's aged original face, 2) Clone Material that is permanently visible, 3) Self Mutilation, as in extra eye sockets. Tobi being a clone of Madara would explain why Itachi considers him a shell, why Tobi wanted to use Pain's Heretical Rebirth Technique (to return Madara's soul to his original body or possibly his clone body), and how Kabuto was able to summon the original body of Madara. If Tobi really is a clone, then the only major part of him that is Madara's is the Chakra (the spirit and body being dead). If his whole body is a perfect clone then maybe that is why we never see MS or EMS eyes, that or he's not using his original eyes and can no longer upgrade the spares. Still I have no answer to how or where he got his space/time abilities. If it's not EMS, it but could be the result of EMS eyes combined with Shodai's DNA, something he achieved after his fight but before his death that the clone inherited. You would think the power came from his right eye, but since we never see the eye change...

[SuigetsuKun]

Enough is enough! I won't take care of some foolish anime watching Sasuke lovers!
Every word they wright is an insult to my honor and their deaths must be paid!!

I hate being repressed by spoiled anime audience, people who only know color and moving pictures with no fantasy but big anime pampers full of anime poo.

We have already seen most of Tobi's face and besides, he goes by Madara these days. He got a second Sharingan and he used this eye in order to use a technique that is said to be forbidden even in the Uchiha clan. That technique is called Izanagi and it casts a genjutsu on the user allowing him to undo damage inflicted to him.

He killed Konan the paper girl using that technique and he got himself Nagato's Rin'negan.

When he fought against Danzou's minions, Torune from the Aburame clan inflicted damage to his arm and he was easily able to replace it which is a hint for his body being a creation of White Zetsu.

In my opinion, Zetsu can not only create perfect copies of every body he ever touched, no he can also touch different people and create a mix and that's in my opinion what the current Madara is.

The new Madara is a creation of White Zetsu and it was either enough to mix the real Sharingan eyes with a copy of the 1st Hokage's body or he had to create a mix of Madara's and Hashirama's body in order to create the new Madara who has been freed of his mortal body. Maybe his new body was not as powerful, but he's getting stronger by the minute.

[JC...]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

It has always bothered me how a cold and calculating madara, could behave as a goofball unless there was another conscious on board that was allowed to due the steering on occasion…

It's not that hard to act like an idiot/someone else.

I personally think it's just a plot device.

[Cael]

Originally Posted by SuigetsuKun

We have already seen most of Tobi's face and besides, he goes by Madara these days.

'He goes by' is not the same as 'he is'. Even though it's very much accepted that he is in some way Madara, it's still not proven what exactly that is. We've seen before how Tobi bends the truth and sometimes straight up lies. Zetsu calls him Tobi, and since we don't yet know all the details regarding the outcome of Madara's fight with Shodai, I don't think Tobi should be referred to as Madara until it's poven. But that's just me.

That technique is called Izanagi and it casts a genjutsu on the user allowing him to undo damage inflicted to him. When he fought against Danzou's minions, Torune from the Aburame clan inflicted damage to his arm and he was easily able to replace it which is a hint for his body being a creation of White Zetsu.

Yes, he has shown the ability to use Izanagi, however I don't think he has used Izanagi outside of his fight with Konan that we have seen. As you said, he took damage from Torune, if he was using Izanagi this wouldn't have happened. Also he was moderately wounded in his fight against the fourth. Again Izanagi was not used, or this would have been prevented.

In my opinion, Zetsu can not only create perfect copies of every body he ever touched, no he can also touch different people and create a mix and that's in my opinion what the current Madara is.

I agree except the part about mixing.

The new Madara is a creation of White Zetsu and it was either enough to mix the real Sharingan eyes with a copy of the 1st Hokage's body or he had to create a mix of Madara's and Hashirama's body in order to create the new Madara who has been freed of his mortal body. Maybe his new body was not as powerful, but he's getting stronger by the minute.

Apart from the rin'negan, I haven't seen anything to indicate he is getting stronger. He uses the same two moves and has been for at least the last 16 years. The real question is where did Zetsu come from? Too little is known about him to produce anything solid beyond speculation. Did he create Tobi or did Madara create Zetsu? And if so, both of them? Or just the white? I've read a number of theories and they're all interesting but nothing is concrete. What we do know is that Zetsu has two personalities, can become one with the earth and trees, can create clones, can 'record' what he sees for Tobi to 'view', and can drain peoples chakra. We also know Madara stole Hashirama's DNA but how was it used? What came first? The giant flower? Zetsu? Tobi? Again, all we can really do is speculate.