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Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2017-02-13, 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by vic-vic

I also remember what Mika had done when Carta and her subordinates stood outside their mobile suits

There's a big difference between blatantly ignoring the interplanetary surrender signal rule that's still currently acknowledged and used widespread among factions that's engaged in conflicts (which is what Iok did + intentionally killing civilian women & children) and ignoring the enemy's whim to have a "fair duel" which is an ancient custom that haven't been used since 300 years ago before Crank did it. Tekkadan went with that duel whim once for Crank but servicing their enemy twice is just too much. Imagine a squad of American soldiers asking a bunch Vietnam soldiers to apply the ancient firearm rules of engagement (like what the British did by lining up their shooters neatly first before engaging) during the Vietnam war. That would be utterly ridiculous on the American soldiers' part and the Vietnam soldiers would be totally justified if they ignore that request.

Skaddix · 2017-02-13, 04:25

Well Tekkadan didn't have much of a choice against Crank.
They only had one Mobile Suit. Mobile Workers get steamrolled by Mobile Suits.
And reducing the number of Mobile Suits able to be used against them was a net positive anyway.
So a fair 1 on 1 Duel Against Crank is great for them. It sure beats Mika fighting 3 on 1 again. After all this early Mika. So the Crank Duel was honestly the best deal they could get at the time with no negatives on their end.

As for Carta. I am not especially concerned was it brutal from Mika sure. But whether those grunts were in their Suits or not would change not one thing. Mika would have won 3 on 1 by himself and Carta wanted a 3 on 3 that is an easy win for Tekkadan.

vic-vic · 2017-02-13, 04:39

Attacking someone under the white flag is also a very brutal violation of Laws and Customs of War I think. Tekkadan could simply laught at Carta's request or ignore it, but Mika choose a Third Opinion - be ruthless and play for win.

But this mean Tekkadan also can't condemn someone who used the very same things as they did. Iok didn't play nice that's for sure, but Turbines still was a part of a Teiwaz - a well-known criminal syndicate (ironically, thouh, Naze and his family still was much more moral and good-natured than majority of the IBO fractions).

Okay, I admit, that I wasn't fair to Orga in my previous post - Carta's deal from get to go was more or less Mika's idea. And honestly, I really feel bad for orga when Mikazuki pretty much mind-raped him.

Skaddix · 2017-02-13, 05:10

Carta wanted a Duel. She and her men were armed and prepared to fight.

That is far different from firing on unarmed civilian escape pods.

tdx · 2017-02-13, 05:34

Where do you see a white flag?

Spoiler for pic:

As I said, they weren't surrendering, there was no white flag for Tekkadan to ignore. Also, ignore the challenge? The mooks blocked the way, the rails, leaving no such option.

vic-vic · 2017-02-13, 06:00

"White flag" was a metaphor - Carta just satyed in one place and didn try to do anything but call Tekkadan.

And I'm sorry if I caused the confuson - I didn't say they should ignore mooks, I meant they could just ignore the challenge and simply charge right on the Gjallarhorn position head on. honestly, I think Carta and her man wouldn't last long even if they was't caught by surprise attack... but at least GH forces would have goes down swinging

RES-01 Perses Gundam · 2017-02-13, 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by vic-vic

"White flag" was a metaphor - Carta just satyed in one place and didn try to do anything but call Tekkadan.

And I'm sorry if I caused the confuson - I didn't say they should ignore mooks, I meant they could just ignore the challenge and simply charge right on the Gjallarhorn position head on. honestly, I think Carta and her man wouldn't last long even if they was't caught by surprise attack... but at least GH forces would have goes down swinging

Hmm, I won't deny that Mika and co. have very personal reasons for wanting to eliminate Carta and her legion of troops. But in terms of strategy, wouldn't destroying your enemy when the opportunity arises go a long way towards cutting your future losses? You can admonish Tekkadan for being honor-less but it's Carta's fault for presuming that all factions share Gjallahorn's archaic notions of chivalry and honor.

Also, I don't think it's fair to compare Iok's misdeeds with those of Tekkadan. First of all, Iok was an elite member of the Seven Stars, and should know better than anyone else of his obligations to rules of engagement. Moreover, he fired on unarmed civilian vessels fleeing a war zone in spite of repeated, unmistakable pleas for a ceasefire/surrender. That's a war crime of the highest order. Whatever atrocities Tekkadan meted out against Carta and co. are peanuts compared to Iok's IMO

vic-vic · 2017-02-13, 06:39

I don't disagree that Carta's level of stupidity in her encounter with tekkadans was through the roof. But after all honorless and ruthless (put pragmatic and smart) maneuvers Mika and his comrades used agaionst Carta... IMHO Iok simply thinks that any friend of Tekkadan are untrustworthy and thus all of those signals for surrender nothing but a underhanded tactics to escape.

RES-01 Perses Gundam · 2017-02-13, 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by vic-vic

I don't disagree that Carta's level of stupidity in her encounter with tekkadans was through the roof. But after all honorless and ruthless (put pragmatic and smart) maneuvers Mika and his comrades used agaionst Carta... IMHO Iok simply thinks that any friend of Tekkadan are untrustworthy and thus all of those signals for surrender nothing but a underhanded tactics to escape.

Hmm but Iok's stupidity doesn't excuse him from his crimes, does it? Furthermore, the onus is on him to ascertain if the Turbines meant for a ceasefire; an unqualified hunch that an adversary may be resorting to some underhanded tactic doesn't give him a pass for all the unnecessary carnage he caused in the battle.

Again, I'm not trying to defend Tekkadan. We don't know enough about this fictional universe to determine if whatever Mika did to Carta would suffice to criminalise him. But we have had enough hints dropped in-universe to infer that Iok's was a systematic massacre on a level that even Rustal would be inclined to serve Teiwaz an apology

P.S. I simply don't get how you can defend Iok without batting an eyelid lol

DMurphy · 2017-02-13, 07:28

What Tekkadan and what Iok did are pretty strikingly different.

For starters, Tekkadan and Gjallarhorn were effectively at war at the time, and Carta had come looking for a battle, and the wounded party were career soldiers.

But Gjallarhorn and the Turbines weren't at war -- the Turbines were meant to be the subject of a criminal investigation, and Iok used illegal weapons to fire on fleeing civilians that included young children.

vic-vic · 2017-02-13, 07:42

Iok broke the rules that's for sure and THIS is why Rustal apologiosed to McMurdo - his protege went too trigger-happy and shed a lot of innocent blood. Though I want to pont out that Naze and his group had the means to protect themselves - Hammerhead is a armed ship and his girls have a mobile suits to engage in the combat.

I definetly find actions of Gjallarhorn fleet under Iok's command deplorable. But I also find the Mika's attack on a soldier who stopod outside their mobile suits deplorable too, yet Tekkadan are free to do anthing as they please.

RES-01 Perses Gundam · 2017-02-13, 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by vic-vic

Iok broke the rules that's for sure and THIS is why Rustal apologiosed to McMurdo - his protege went too trigger-happy and shed a lot of innocent blood. Though I want to pont out that Naze and his group had the means to protect themselves - Hammerhead is a armed ship and his girls have a mobile suits to engage in the combat.

I definetly find actions of Gjallarhorn fleet under Iok's command deplorable. But I also find the Mika's attack on a soldier who stopod outside their mobile suits deplorable too.

Well, Naze did issue multiple calls for a ceasefire, then surrender - and Iok blatantly ignored them all. Furthermore, the Turbines deployed their mobile suits for escort purposes, they didn't initiate hostilities until provoked. That should have given Iok pause, no? For all the talk about honour and chivalry, these actions were downright despicable.

Hmm, guess we are not on the same page when it comes to the magnitude of war crimes in each incident? Mika curbstomped three Gjallahorn soldiers, whose commanding officer issued a call for an honourable duel that is at best dubious - Iok fired on an adversary which clearly already conveyed their intention for a ceasefire, shot at several unarmed escape pods, maiming definitely more than a handful. Plus Iok is a member of the Seven Stars, the highest echelons of a peacekeeping organisation which are supposed to be bound to the highest standards of law and rules of engagement - if they break the laws, who's gonna uphold it?

vic-vic · 2017-02-13, 08:13

I definetly not trying to say that Iok's action wasn't a colossal dick move, but even if number of casualties couldn't be compared it's doesn't mean that what Mika did (after he pretty much forced Orga and his comrades to go with this plan) wasn't a dick move either. Carta and her subordinates stood outside their machines and Mika used this to his advantage, which allowed him to SLAUGHTER the people who couldn't defend themselves on that moment.

So, I don't think Tekkadan (read, Mika) didn't deserve to be a victim of a merciless slaughter and underhand tactics too.

RES-01 Perses Gundam · 2017-02-13, 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by vic-vic

I definetly not trying to say that Iok's action was colossal dick move, but even if number of casualties couldn't be compared it's doesn't mean that what Mika did (after he pretty much forced Orga and his comrades to go with this plan) wasn't a dick move either. Carta and her subordinates stood outside their machines and Mika used this to his advantage, which allowed him to SLAUGHTER the people who couldn't defend themselves on that moment.

So, I don't think Tekkadan (read, Mika) didn't deserve to be a victim of a merciless slaughter and underhand tactics too.

I agree that it's a dick move through and through, but gosh the satisfaction to see Carta brought to her knees - given how much of a nuisance she was - was incomparable.

Again, let me reiterate that we still have little inkling as to how rules of engagement operate in this fictional universe. We don't know if Carta's standards of chivalry and honour are her own, and not enshrined in the highest law of the land. Given that they are not commonplace, I'm going to risk a limb and say no, it's on her for acting all honourable and expecting her adversary to share her same high-minded respect for said code of honour.

Plus, if we are indeed watching the same show, Gjallahorn has displayed too frequently their blatant disdain for life, and their lack of hesitation to violate laws as long as it's expedient for them to do so. Dorts. Arbrau. Iok vs Turbines. You can't deny that Gjallahorn is ultimately responsible for abusing their powers and privileges, twisting laws as they deem fit, and catalysing a general breakdown in order and the most basic decencies of war. Caught in this anarchic world, I don't see what choice Tekkadan have but throw whatever they have against an adversary that would spare them nothing but jest, scorn and derision.

Call me hypocritical for holding Gjallarhorn to a higher standard than their adversaries, but you got to start somewhere, right?

vic-vic · 2017-02-13, 09:45

Isn't this a sad irony - we all find Carta's action a huge pile of dumb decisions and yet she tried her best to uphold the code of honor and chivalry. But in the end she was brutally killed by Mika and this let a sociopathic McGillis to seize the power.

Irenesharda · 2017-02-13, 20:04

Interestingly, this episode tells us that McGillis is actually one of titular characters as he is both iron-blooded and an orphan. I wonder how that will affect his place in the series?

Quote:

Originally Posted by vic-vic

Isn't this a sad irony - we all find Carta's action a huge pile of dumb decisions and yet she tried her best to uphold the code of honor and chivalry. But in the end she was brutally killed by Mika and this let a sociopathic McGillis to seize the power.

Quite disagree with you. I'd take McGillis over Carta any day. Macky may be off, but he’s not really sociopathic. In comparison, Mika is actually a lot more sociopathic than he is. But also like Mika, that doesn't make him a monster either. Carta was a product of her society, she held her corrupted view of honor above all else, even common sense. She was really Iok lite. She honestly fell to her own hubris.

I would rather have someone who isn't afraid to act even when the goal seems insurmountable, than someone who simply too stupid to think for themselves and continuing the cycle.

vic-vic · 2017-02-14, 01:28

McGillis shows pretty obvious sights of sociopathy.
1) He himself states he care nothing about people, even ones, who close to him, him and his prime emotion is anger.
2) He consider people around him as a tolls. For example, despite his constant reassurance toward Orga that he Tekkadan's ally, during Hasmal's incident he openlt states to Isurugi that he want tekkadan to be dependent on him (i.e. be obidient).
3) No remorse over his actions.
4) He very good at manipulating people

Actually, I don't know - can we really buy his words about changing Gjallarhorn for the better. His internal monologue in the episode 43 centers about how people with power can do anything they want and that once he get Bael he will get the ultimate power. And his expression during Gaelio's speech show that Vidar's words hit Fareed where its hurt - I mean, about McGillis being power-hungry.

And while Mika is a tragic one... he still a monster (not in the sense that he is evil, just broken to the point he not fully human anymore). We all know why he is like that and he deserve pity... but he still quiet a thug. Even granny Sakura stated that Mika's first reaction to any stressful situation is violence (like when he almost strangled poor Gaelio in the car incident with Griffon twins, even when Bauduin wasn't even at fault). And his mind-rape of Orga in episode 22 is very unpleasant sight.

Mika simply forced Orga to give him an order (and thus take a responsobility for Mika's action), forcefully overrifing grieving leader's weak protests. Orga himself admit to Kudelia in the season 1 that it's Mika who often push Orga forward and somtimes, Mikazuki's intensity outright SCARE Orga.

Skaddix · 2017-02-14, 01:46

McGillis wanting Tekkadan clearly in the Junior Partner Role is about the balance of power.

The fact remains McGillis doesn't have a reason to screw Tekkadan at this point. McGillis will be running Gjhallahorn From Earth. It takes over a month to travel to Mars. Ergo having some allies he can trust running the operations over there benefits him. Tekkadan has no interest in Earth. Plus Tekkadan is super popular on Mars so backstabbing them would hardly be a politically savvy move on his part. I am not going to comment on McGillis being a good guy but Gjhallahorn is clearly corrupt so some regime change is in order.

To be fair to Mika its not like he gave Orga the pep talk immediately. It was from what I remember a few days after Biscuit Died when they were approaching their next destination. So its not like he was totally inconsiderate and provided zero time to mourn. That is not say Mika is normal or the relationship is Normal. As both seem pretty afraid of the other leaving them behind. Mika said as much to Orga and has been shown to question his worth if he cant fight and win.

vic-vic · 2017-02-14, 02:53

Trust? I think McGillis already show how trustworthy he is at the end of season 1... Guys like him trust only pople they can firmly control (like Camise).

Okay, I admit that we need to wait for episode 44 to fully see what McGilliw will do with his newfound power. But I really doubt that his changes would be for the better.

Skaddix · 2017-02-14, 22:07

Who said anything about Trust?

McGillis currently has no reason to stab Tekkadan in the back. For one Tekkadan is far more likely to get a plea deal from Rustal Faction and even that is super small chance. There is no way McGillis can surrender and not get life imprisonment or the death penalty. I don't think McGillis would go for it anyway.

Fact remains someone has to run Mars. It takes over a month to travel between the two Planets. So McGillis needs someone he can trust not to plot an invasion or something to run and it helps if he picks someone with no interest in Earth at all. Add into the fact that Tekkadan has a similar backstory to McGillis kindred spirit.

Note its not that McGillis wont backstab people to advance. But McGillis is not not to use DnD parlance Chaotic. There is presently zero benefit McGillis gets from screwing Tekkadan, The Heroes of Mars. At the very least that is hardly likely to help Gjhallahorn Approval Numbers on Mars.

2017-02-13, 07:28	Link #610
DMurphy Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014	What Tekkadan and what Iok did are pretty strikingly different. For starters, Tekkadan and Gjallarhorn were effectively at war at the time, and Carta had come looking for a battle, and the wounded party were career soldiers. But Gjallarhorn and the Turbines weren't at war -- the Turbines were meant to be the subject of a criminal investigation, and Iok used illegal weapons to fire on fleeing civilians that included young children. __________________ Latest Review: Psycho-Pass 2 and Legend of Korra

2017-02-13, 08:13	Link #613
vic-vic Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: forge-world Moscow 1 Age: 38	I definetly not trying to say that Iok's action wasn't a colossal dick move, but even if number of casualties couldn't be compared it's doesn't mean that what Mika did (after he pretty much forced Orga and his comrades to go with this plan) wasn't a dick move either. Carta and her subordinates stood outside their machines and Mika used this to his advantage, which allowed him to SLAUGHTER the people who couldn't defend themselves on that moment. So, I don't think Tekkadan (read, Mika) didn't deserve to be a victim of a merciless slaughter and underhand tactics too. Last edited by vic-vic; 2017-02-13 at 09:26.

2017-02-13, 04:25	Link #602
Skaddix Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2015	Well Tekkadan didn't have much of a choice against Crank. They only had one Mobile Suit. Mobile Workers get steamrolled by Mobile Suits. And reducing the number of Mobile Suits able to be used against them was a net positive anyway. So a fair 1 on 1 Duel Against Crank is great for them. It sure beats Mika fighting 3 on 1 again. After all this early Mika. So the Crank Duel was honestly the best deal they could get at the time with no negatives on their end. As for Carta. I am not especially concerned was it brutal from Mika sure. But whether those grunts were in their Suits or not would change not one thing. Mika would have won 3 on 1 by himself and Carta wanted a 3 on 3 that is an easy win for Tekkadan.

2017-02-13, 04:39	Link #603
vic-vic Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: forge-world Moscow 1 Age: 38	Attacking someone under the white flag is also a very brutal violation of Laws and Customs of War I think. Tekkadan could simply laught at Carta's request or ignore it, but Mika choose a Third Opinion - be ruthless and play for win. But this mean Tekkadan also can't condemn someone who used the very same things as they did. Iok didn't play nice that's for sure, but Turbines still was a part of a Teiwaz - a well-known criminal syndicate (ironically, thouh, Naze and his family still was much more moral and good-natured than majority of the IBO fractions). Okay, I admit, that I wasn't fair to Orga in my previous post - Carta's deal from get to go was more or less Mika's idea. And honestly, I really feel bad for orga when Mikazuki pretty much mind-raped him.

2017-02-13, 05:10	Link #604
Skaddix Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2015	Carta wanted a Duel. She and her men were armed and prepared to fight. That is far different from firing on unarmed civilian escape pods.

2017-02-13, 05:34	Link #605
tdx Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2016	Where do you see a white flag? Spoiler for pic: As I said, they weren't surrendering, there was no white flag for Tekkadan to ignore. Also, ignore the challenge? The mooks blocked the way, the rails, leaving no such option.

2017-02-13, 06:00	Link #606
vic-vic Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: forge-world Moscow 1 Age: 38	"White flag" was a metaphor - Carta just satyed in one place and didn try to do anything but call Tekkadan. And I'm sorry if I caused the confuson - I didn't say they should ignore mooks, I meant they could just ignore the challenge and simply charge right on the Gjallarhorn position head on. honestly, I think Carta and her man wouldn't last long even if they was't caught by surprise attack... but at least GH forces would have goes down swinging

2017-02-13, 06:39	Link #608
vic-vic Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: forge-world Moscow 1 Age: 38	I don't disagree that Carta's level of stupidity in her encounter with tekkadans was through the roof. But after all honorless and ruthless (put pragmatic and smart) maneuvers Mika and his comrades used agaionst Carta... IMHO Iok simply thinks that any friend of Tekkadan are untrustworthy and thus all of those signals for surrender nothing but a underhanded tactics to escape.

2017-02-13, 07:42	Link #611
vic-vic Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: forge-world Moscow 1 Age: 38	Iok broke the rules that's for sure and THIS is why Rustal apologiosed to McMurdo - his protege went too trigger-happy and shed a lot of innocent blood. Though I want to pont out that Naze and his group had the means to protect themselves - Hammerhead is a armed ship and his girls have a mobile suits to engage in the combat. I definetly find actions of Gjallarhorn fleet under Iok's command deplorable. But I also find the Mika's attack on a soldier who stopod outside their mobile suits deplorable too, yet Tekkadan are free to do anthing as they please.

2017-02-13, 09:45	Link #615
vic-vic Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: forge-world Moscow 1 Age: 38	Isn't this a sad irony - we all find Carta's action a huge pile of dumb decisions and yet she tried her best to uphold the code of honor and chivalry. But in the end she was brutally killed by Mika and this let a sociopathic McGillis to seize the power.

2017-02-14, 01:28	Link #617
vic-vic Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: forge-world Moscow 1 Age: 38	McGillis shows pretty obvious sights of sociopathy. 1) He himself states he care nothing about people, even ones, who close to him, him and his prime emotion is anger. 2) He consider people around him as a tolls. For example, despite his constant reassurance toward Orga that he Tekkadan's ally, during Hasmal's incident he openlt states to Isurugi that he want tekkadan to be dependent on him (i.e. be obidient). 3) No remorse over his actions. 4) He very good at manipulating people Actually, I don't know - can we really buy his words about changing Gjallarhorn for the better. His internal monologue in the episode 43 centers about how people with power can do anything they want and that once he get Bael he will get the ultimate power. And his expression during Gaelio's speech show that Vidar's words hit Fareed where its hurt - I mean, about McGillis being power-hungry. And while Mika is a tragic one... he still a monster (not in the sense that he is evil, just broken to the point he not fully human anymore). We all know why he is like that and he deserve pity... but he still quiet a thug. Even granny Sakura stated that Mika's first reaction to any stressful situation is violence (like when he almost strangled poor Gaelio in the car incident with Griffon twins, even when Bauduin wasn't even at fault). And his mind-rape of Orga in episode 22 is very unpleasant sight. Mika simply forced Orga to give him an order (and thus take a responsobility for Mika's action), forcefully overrifing grieving leader's weak protests. Orga himself admit to Kudelia in the season 1 that it's Mika who often push Orga forward and somtimes, Mikazuki's intensity outright SCARE Orga.

2017-02-14, 01:46	Link #618
Skaddix Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2015	McGillis wanting Tekkadan clearly in the Junior Partner Role is about the balance of power. The fact remains McGillis doesn't have a reason to screw Tekkadan at this point. McGillis will be running Gjhallahorn From Earth. It takes over a month to travel to Mars. Ergo having some allies he can trust running the operations over there benefits him. Tekkadan has no interest in Earth. Plus Tekkadan is super popular on Mars so backstabbing them would hardly be a politically savvy move on his part. I am not going to comment on McGillis being a good guy but Gjhallahorn is clearly corrupt so some regime change is in order. To be fair to Mika its not like he gave Orga the pep talk immediately. It was from what I remember a few days after Biscuit Died when they were approaching their next destination. So its not like he was totally inconsiderate and provided zero time to mourn. That is not say Mika is normal or the relationship is Normal. As both seem pretty afraid of the other leaving them behind. Mika said as much to Orga and has been shown to question his worth if he cant fight and win.

2017-02-14, 02:53	Link #619
vic-vic Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: forge-world Moscow 1 Age: 38	Trust? I think McGillis already show how trustworthy he is at the end of season 1... Guys like him trust only pople they can firmly control (like Camise). Okay, I admit that we need to wait for episode 44 to fully see what McGilliw will do with his newfound power. But I really doubt that his changes would be for the better.

2017-02-14, 22:07	Link #620
Skaddix Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2015	Who said anything about Trust? McGillis currently has no reason to stab Tekkadan in the back. For one Tekkadan is far more likely to get a plea deal from Rustal Faction and even that is super small chance. There is no way McGillis can surrender and not get life imprisonment or the death penalty. I don't think McGillis would go for it anyway. Fact remains someone has to run Mars. It takes over a month to travel between the two Planets. So McGillis needs someone he can trust not to plot an invasion or something to run and it helps if he picks someone with no interest in Earth at all. Add into the fact that Tekkadan has a similar backstory to McGillis kindred spirit. Note its not that McGillis wont backstab people to advance. But McGillis is not not to use DnD parlance Chaotic. There is presently zero benefit McGillis gets from screwing Tekkadan, The Heroes of Mars. At the very least that is hardly likely to help Gjhallahorn Approval Numbers on Mars.