Macross Frontier - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[squaresphere]

I dunno for some reason this ep did grab me like the other ones did. Meh probably cause I'm just ready for the climax to take place and all the mysteries to be unraveled.

not a bad ep and i liked the altoxsheryl moments but I was kinda was made at Ozma for saying some of that stuff to Alto. He's staying with Frontier cause that's where Sheryl is.

As for Grace, it's obviously she let Brera go with Ranka in order to find the Vajra home world. I sense an appearance by the Galaxy fleet over that planet in order to begin the "harvest"

[MaiHikari]

A few more thngs to note:

Grace's hopes and dreams are bouncy as they are bullet proof. A deadly combination.

Alto managed to damage Ozma's VF. Not too bad for a rookie--considering he didn't have the intent to kill his prior skull leader whereas Ozma did have intentions to kill.

SMS went out to search for the answer on their true enemy. As righteous as that sounds, they are also leaving their loved ones and the people of Frontier in the hands of an evil dictator and scarcely protected by a handicapped government running on low resources.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by ipernorris

No she said they aim at something "beyond that", according to gg sub. As I trust that scanlation for me something beyond galaxy control is universe control so they wouldn't go looking for something they already have, which is the fold quartz which allows fold travels without dislocations.

yeah, but they still need the Vajra for the crystals. I don't believe they have found a way to make fold quartz crystals. So probably they want to get the source of the crystals.

[squaresphere]

I think it's kinda weird that the families of the SMS pirates didn't come with them. ie Carnia's family. If Leon is evil as they make him out to be, what's to stop his MIBS taking them hostage and forcing them to return :P.

[Mughi]

Originally Posted by MaiHikari

...SMS went out to search for the answer on their true enemy. As righteous as that sounds, they are also leaving their loved ones and the people of Frontier in the hands of an evil dictator and scarcely protected by a handicapped government running on low resources.

Dammed if you do, and dammed if you don't.

[dee32]

Originally Posted by grss1982

Alto was'nt actually in a better fighter it was just an upgraded VF-171.

For a real world comparssion the situation was more like Alto was piloting an F-15 while Ozma was piloting an F-22. Not what you would call a "fair fight," IMHO.

I really don't like the VF-171EX IMO its no improvement over a regular VF-171. Flying that Alto will never be able to compete with Ozma's VF-25S. I thought why don't they give Alto the YF-24. The prototype has to be around somewhere.

[glyph]

Originally Posted by ipernorris

What about reading my other posts as well? In those posts I clearly stated that the
Vajra, no matter what is their reason, they're massacring millions of lives and this cannot be justified in any way possible. Because they're making a genocide the humans have the right to defend themselves by wiping the Vajra out. We shouldn't see the matter under our normal peace and love POV, but from POV of persons who lost their beloved ones and are on verge of death. I'm sure very few people here wouldn't want to make the Vajra becoming space dust.

By that measure, all wars should end with nothing less than the complete and utter annilihation of the perceived aggressor (which is always the other side, of course). Well, that _is_ one surefire way to peace.

The Vajra went on a mindless rampage on humanity a total of three times. Once, during the destruction of the Research Convoy (which Ozma says is identical to the recent rampage), after the destruction of Gallia IV (where Grace tried to pull off the genocide shit on them first), and the most recent attack (an accident caused by Ranka). Note that initial first contact with the Vajra in 2045 was implied to be peaceful and/or they weren't recognised to be sentient, because the Convoy worked with Vajra, and Ranshe even learnt their song.

You may want to find out _why_ the Research Convoy was destroyed before condemning the Vajra. (which I suspect will be revealed in the next episode).

If what Grace said is true (and there is no reason to believe otherwise) then it means Vajra are attacking the humans to stop them from colonizing planets around the galaxy, especially in the Vajra's territory of course. It would make the Vajra's position even worse for me.

Firstly, IMO, Grace has said nothing of that kind. The fact that she mocks Leon suggests that she knows the reason, and it's nothing as abstract and pretentious as Leon makes it out to be.

Secondly, even if it is true, the Vajra have no obligation to play along with humanity's fantasy of inheriting the Galaxy from the Protoculture. If, in fact, the galactic core is their territory, it's humanity's role to convince the Vajra of their right to coexist in the area, not the other way around.

[sekidousai]

^^ you said a lot more than me ( ^_^)

Originally Posted by ipernorris

What about reading my other posts as well?

Yes i've read youre other posts as well and if you looked in my other posts as well you can see that i'm highly against that kind of thinking.

Originally Posted by ipernorris

Because they're making a genocide the humans have the right to defend themselves by wiping the Vajra out.

Like i've said, "Failing to value the life of others cheapens youre own". So based on what your trying to say, it's okay for us to do genocide like what the enemy is doing??? Then what makes the humantradis() better than the Vajra's??? Would it help people to understand better if they physically looked more human. If you have watched M7 then you have missed a whole lot of what Basara is trying to do.

Originally Posted by MaiHikari

...SMS went out to search for the answer on their true enemy. As righteous as that sounds, they are also leaving their loved ones and the people of Frontier in the hands of an evil dictator and scarcely protected by a handicapped government running on low resources.

I think that their families would be much safer if they stay in the main city of Frontier, and I woud'nt think Leon would risk exposure to media if he uses it for blackmail, or he might think it is not worth it. And it seems that he was expecting it and has already made plans for it.

[dee32]

Everyone is choosing there own path. Alto chose to spend Sheryl remaining time with her. Luca is waiting for Nanase to wake up. Ozma and the remaining SMS when to chase after Ranka. Ranka chose to take Ai-kun to his home. So why did Klan stay behind?

[kilroy0097]

We don't really have full knowledge as to why the Vajra are attacking the humans. We can speculate from Grace's comment that hey are protecting their home systems. If this is true then the humans are invaders and the Vajra are defenders. The humans by their ignorance are no better than the Zentradi were all those many years ago. The humans believe it's their God given right to colonize everything. Humankind is like a virus traveling between hosts and taking over. The Vajra, if they are descendant from the Birdman, may view humankind as Kadun or whatever Sara called evil spirits of destruction.

If I were to pick one species who is most at fault it would be the humans. Though we don't know when the Vajra first attacked nor do we know the circumstances surrounding the first contact. So it's all up in the air.

[sekidousai]

Originally Posted by dee32

So why did Klan stay behind?

To spy on the government?. or to be the bridge to SMS and Frontier.?, </jk>She forgot her boarding pass? she forgot to set the alarm and the sms left without her? she forgot to refuel her quadrunn and is stuck.?</jk>

[Urei]

So why did Klan stay behind?

Either she wants to do the revenge her own way, provide backup to Quater from inside or stay where her last memories with Michael are. Probably all.

[justinstrife]

Or she wants to watch over Alto, Luca, and Sheryl, plus help protect Frontier in Michel's memory.

[Anh_Minh]

Or maybe the Quarter isn't equipped for a long journey with a Zentrady onboard. Are the miclone chambers even on the ship?

[ipernorris]

Originally Posted by golthin

yeah, but they still need the Vajra for the crystals. I don't believe they have found a way to make fold quartz crystals. So probably they want to get the source of the crystals.

Well I had the clear impression that, to Grace, the fold quartz were just a middle stepstone and nothing more. On that planet there is something far greater than the fold quartz imho.

Originally Posted by glyph

By that measure, all wars should end with nothing less than the complete and utter annilihation of the perceived aggressor (which is always the other side, of course). Well, that _is_ one surefire way to peace.

When your enemy wants to annihilate you and there is no possibility to negotiate it's the only possible solution. It's called "struggle for the survival" and it's done by all living beings. I don't think the Vajra have been a show of diplomacy thus far.

The Vajra went on a mindless rampage on humanity a total of three times. Once, during the destruction of the Research Convoy (which Ozma says is identical to the recent rampage), after the destruction of Gallia IV (where Grace tried to pull off the genocide shit on them first), and the most recent attack (an accident caused by Ranka). Note that initial first contact with the Vajra in 2045 was implied to be peaceful and/or they weren't recognised to be sentient, because the Convoy worked with Vajra, and Ranshe even learnt their song.

We don't know if all the attacks were shown because Macross Frontier is, you know, 25 episodes long and not 100.
Almost each episode there is some kind of attack from the Vajra tough... and the theory that Vajra are attacking Frontier to rescue Ranka is done for as well because the Vajra are still attacking tough Ranka is in a whole other place.

You may want to find out _why_ the Research Convoy was destroyed before condemning the Vajra. (which I suspect will be revealed in the next episode).

As I repeat: if the Research Convoy did some shit (which is highly probable) then I'm happy it was destroyed. This doesn't mean Vajra are justified in massacring millions of civilians lives who knows nothing about Vajra before the nice bugs came destroying their lifes.

Firstly, IMO, Grace has said nothing of that kind. The fact that she mocks Leon suggests that she knows the reason, and it's nothing as abstract and pretentious as Leon makes it out to be.

She clearly refers to humantradi's dream to colonize planet around the galaxy, so this means Vajra don't want strangers around their territory. This is the reason because they're obliterating Frontier killing millions of people.

Secondly, even if it is true, the Vajra have no obligation to play along with humanity's fantasy of inheriting the Galaxy from the Protoculture. If, in fact, the galactic core is their territory, it's humanity's role to convince the Vajra of their right to coexist in the area, not the other way around.

Yeah and so they're justified in massacring millions of lives?
So if humans want to destroy Vajra to defend themselves from annihilation they're despicable and hyprocrites, if the Vajra do the same are poor bugs which defend their little nest.

Originally Posted by sekidousai

Yes i've read youre other posts as well and if you looked in my other posts as well you can see that i'm highly against that kind of thinking.

I'm not fond of that way of thinking but I clearly stated it was meant in a life or death situation, not a normal one where you can talk with your enemy and make compromises.

Like i've said, "Failing to value the life of others cheapens youre own". So based on what your trying to say, it's okay for us to do genocide like what the enemy is doing??? Then what makes the humantradis() better than the Vajra's??? Would it help people to understand better if they physically looked more human. If you have watched M7 then you have missed a whole lot of what Basara is trying to do.

The Protodeviln wanted anima spiritia and not utter destruction from humans, and anyway they were beings who you could talk with somehow, I referr to Sivil above all. Anyway I didn't like how they got away at the end... their boss (Gibernich or how it's written... ) said "ok we found a way to produce our own spiritia, bye bye." basically. What about all of the deaths you caused dudes from another dimension or what the hell you are?!?
The bugs manages to be even worse in this aspect: they are attracted by music, not to mention they don't talk and are a collective consciousness like the Borg from Star Trek so the individual is almost useless.

Originally Posted by kilroy0097

If I were to pick one species who is most at fault it would be the humans. Though we don't know when the Vajra first attacked nor do we know the circumstances surrounding the first contact. So it's all up in the air.

Ok humans are always at fault it seems: I don't know any species as masochistic as our one....
Vajra have no reason to attack people who didn't even know their existence before they attacked Frontier. To be an invasor you need to do it willingly and this isn't the case for Frontier as a whole: if Vajra wanted to protect their home systems they could have send a message or make attacks in a way to make humantradis understand they weren't welcome without causing too much damage. The Vajra went all out on civilians instead, not caring about their lifes: if the bugs don't care about a humantradi's life why should it be the opposite. It's like Alto said: there isn't place for both the species in the universe at this point, because too much damage has been done and I hope they won't resolve the matter with a crappy "let's live together happily forever".

[Key Board]

It's Macross

It will end with love and peace

besides, the Protodevlin were far from saints either. Do you know what a Spiritia farm is?

[ipernorris]

Originally Posted by Key Board

It's Macross

It will end with love and peace

besides, the Protodevlin were far from saints either. Do you know what a Spiritia farm is?

Did I write they were saints? I don't know why people read 3-4 lines of posts and then reply. I only said that you could talk with a protodeviln, that's all. In fact I added that I didn't like the way M7 ended because Protodeviln got away too easily.

[sekidousai]

And i've gotta good guess on how you would feel when Macross F ends. And also i think that you have missed one of the key points of what Macross is, not only this series i think other series, novels, faery tales, mangas, comics, Confiucus, buddha and the holy bible as well.

[abynormal]

Finally! Alto is put on the spot at last and his own flaws have been flung in his face. He's been stagnant for the last several episodes and now I hope this will jump start his character growth. I loved Ozma's "I'm not an adult, I'm a man!" The character focus has been on Ranka and Sheryl for the longest time, and finally swings back onto Alto.

At the same time, the plot is unraveling. If I can give MF a fault, it's that they lavished a lot of attention on the character drama, which is good, but squeezed the plot a bit much for my liking. It's still the best series of the year, in my opinion.

[Wesley84]

The opening segment sucks. Grace might be lying about Bresra acting on his own, and Leon apparently risking Frontier just so he can be President is a little out there. Afterall, he was just an Aide, presumably with no place in the line of succession, and didn't enjoy support from anyone other than a few guards and probably Grace. With the immediate crisis long since past, there should be no way he'd be President.

Nevermind, him not even bothering to hide Glass's bullet ridden corpse, and lying through his teeth about the Vajra getting him to a high-ranking military official...

Well, presumably the VF-25s recieved a completely new weapons lay out, and not just with the missles. Alto still overreacts to everything though. I was hoping Ranka dumping him would have had more of an effect on his attitude besides making him yell slightly less often.

Ah, so they've got a House of Representatives. Tell me again how Leon hoped to become President by killing off Glass?

Look! I knew it! Captive audience! Sheryl recognized an oppurtunity for a comeback and took it!

So Klan and Alto were hanging out?

And here comes Sheryl's magical Fold powers to the rescue. Tell me again how she was a "failure"?

Bobby found Ozma! Most tearful reunion ever!

Sheryl even stole Ranka's old manager!

For "charity". Yeah, it only took the realisation that you are infact MORTAL to stop treating people like shit. Cut the Jesus crap, and show some regret for being such a selfish bitch for so long.

Alto, I'd think twice before taking love advice from a successful Doombitch. But ah well, I guess. As long as it means the end of stupid love triangle.

I hope Ozma didn't really know anything about Ranka.

SMS disbanded!? But what about our l33t status!?

"Big complicated words"? Sheryl evidently hasn't seen a medical drama before. Luca gave a direct, simple, explanation for her disease, it's progression, and her options, in one small little paragraph and she copes a goddamn attitude.

So...Grace didn't know Sheryl would produce "Fold-waves"?

Ah, that's typical. She faints whenever it'd have the most impact.

So Cathy sent out an e-mail to...six people?

Yes, Sheryl, you only had your singing. And the reason for that is because...you...come on, you can say. "Treated everyone like crap!"

"Done enough"? "Didn't want him to know of all people"? So what Sheryl wants matters, but what Ranka doesn't? I wonder if they'd have called Sheryl a "traitor" if she decided she didn't want to?

Anyway, these two are as full of it as usual. Just a couple performers playing out their own personal drama. And just so that everyone aware, it specifically says in Alto's contract that he doesn't perform love-making scenes. So they didn't actually do it.

Ah, interesting. Ranka's finding the way somehow. Is it because of her memories? Reading the stars maybe? Or the condition of her body?

Leon is also a dramaqueen. Slam that podium more, Leon! Show them you mean it!

He's the fifth President, so it's not a lifetime appointment. Is the President an elected official?

Seven tenths of the crew? That's pretty amazing. That they're basically abandoning their homes, their families, their people, because their organization is being integrated into the military that's intended to protect those very things...

And why didn't Klan go with them? I was expecting her to try to run some interference, but evidently not...

They didn't try very hard to stop them, even though it was apparently expected of them. Ozma's and Alto's little duel was pretty pointless as well. Nothing we haven't really heard or seen before, and it really shows just how little his, Alto's, character has progressed.

So...they were looking for the Vajra homeworld? Their "treasure trove"? Tell me, how were they supposed to accomplish that with Sheryl? Or with Ranka if she spent all her time on Frontier defending it?