Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[JediNight]

I guess you are "Gundam" with your know-it-all attitude eh?

I submit to you logic and common sense dictates that it does:

Graham is coughing up blood after only a few high-G manuevers similar to what the Gundams do, yet we've never seen the Gundam pilots so much as strain in anything they've done. Not to mention Graham is undoubtedly better trained than any of the Gundam pilots.

Even the "grunts" the pilots make when attacked are mostly fake. Allelujah likes to make pained cries when being hit like it "hurts", but when Hallelujah takes over there's absolutely no hint at that being the case at all. And in the huge 15hr battle if they were really feeling it that much, they would have rattled the suit or their body apart long before then.

Not to mention GN drive/GN particle is Gravity Nullification...

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by JediNight

Graham is coughing up blood after only a few high-G manuevers similar to what the Gundams do, yet we've never seen the Gundam pilots so much as strain in anything they've done. Not to mention Graham is undoubtedly better trained than any of the Gundam pilots.

Eerh no.

The only time Graham has ever coughed up blood was in 18 against the Throne Eins. And that was because he performed maneuvers that would push him through high G forces due to sudden changes in acceleration and direction:

1. He flies in full throttle showering the Eins in a hail of gunfire.
2. Then he transforms in mid air, and suddenly stops and abruptly climbs at full throttle before trading sabers with Eins.
3. He then overpowers the Eins with sheer thruster power, trades blows again, kicks the beam saber out of Ein's hand, then flies up to retrieve it.
4. He then proceeds to close the distance between him and Eins at ridiculous speed from a standstill, chopping off the Ein's arm in the process.

These were sudden velocity changes at very high speed that really will expose Graham to high G forces even in short bursts, and Graham was dynamic through the duration of the battle. Basically he didn't give himself time to recover from the G's, and instead subjected himself to continuous stress culminating in his high-speed slash.

And I have yet to see any Gundam pilot perform similar maneuvers in combat.

Setsuna's greatest feat: the fastest I've seen him pull were in episode 8 with the Exia take-off. Probably also experienced high-G's during Ali's tackle in 12, but shock absorption should take care of that impact. Also, those backflips, twirls and somersaults were performed at slow speed.

Lockon's: Haro's flip-flop evasions in episode 2. Even then they weren't that fast, and it was brief.

Allelujah: The high speed transformations could probably count as such, then again the Kyrios was designed to transform and with a shifting seat (or else Allelujah's view would be quite different in whenever he flies in flight form). Also Allelujah's a supersoldier.

Tieria: Probably that dash with his beam saber to prevent Eins and Drei from docking, though that was a one-shot deal.

As far as I can tell, none of the Gundam pilots have ever pulled the same high-speed dynamic maneuvers that Graham has in combat, especially with his awesome stint in 18.

Originally Posted by JediNight

Even the "grunts" the pilots make when attacked are mostly fake. Allelujah likes to make pained cries when being hit like it "hurts", but when Hallelujah takes over there's absolutely no hint at that being the case at all. And in the huge 15hr battle if they were really feeling it that much, they would have rattled the suit or their body apart long before then.

But they were feeling the impacts. Or did you not see the vibrations inside their cockpits when they were getting pounded? Or did you not see Lockon get trashed in his seat when he was talking about at least getting a bit to eat, or when he got Graham Special'd and basically ragdolled violently in his cockpit?

Also, Allelujah's pained cries weren't fake. Remember that of all the people he could be pitted against, he faced off against SOMA PERIES, who at the mere proximity of her is able to induce migraines that can drive Allelujah to unconsciuosness, like what happened in episode 10. He was feeling the pain, but not from the rounds but from Soma's presence.

Originally Posted by JediNight

Not to mention GN drive/GN particle is Gravity Nullification...

As far as I know, there's no official word on what GN means.

[winter45]

Finally got to see this episode

Man i love those new suits especially how soma pulled kira moves in a much convinving manner (more spectacular manner may i include) against target that can fight back and the way she owns fangs (Totally uber and doesnt have to beam spam like some beam spammer i know).. Talk about grunt ownage in ths episode

Cant wait for Graham to kick some more gundam @$$e$ in his non GN issue Flag \0/

Hmm kinue.. hope she hasnt died... well not yet anyways.. and Ali is one sick little puppy. Well Setsuna should fix him up soon

Well i would type more but after reading like over 100 posts there isnt much room to include...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Owaranai Destiny

Ah. "How" is what I want to ask. The shitty thing about her situation is we don't know how much effort she has put in, what she has been doing to get her hands on as much information as possible and what orthodox and unorthodox methods she might have used, considering whether she would even advocate the usage of the latter at all.

She could do what most reporters would do. Sit on the story and patiently gather information until she had enough to use as a story. Ragna was suspected of being a financial backer of Celestial Being, so a look at his finances would be a good start. Looking into whether his company was providing more than money would also be a good idea. Because it's a matter of national security, she do well to inform her sources in the government as well.

Originally Posted by edf91

And it can also lead to a trap - we know there isn't one in this case, but you cannot guarantee there isn't a trap, and whether you can handle it. Yes, it is probably a good move, but typically speaking, unless you have backup or you are really reckless, you don't just blindly go about chasing retreating enemies. If you outnumber them 100 to 1, then I guess you can safely go ahead and do it

Given where the Trinitys were, it's extremely unlikely to be a trap. Besides, if Sergei suspected a trap, he would have said so.

Originally Posted by edf91

I think it's hard to argue this point - we didn't know whether Kinue already used up all her resources doing "the other way" before she does it this way. If CB is really being secretive, I doubt they don't know about her by now, as she is not trained to be a spy, so I cannot imagine her outsmarting CB, since CB is so secretive for so long even Union cannot really dig enough dirt on them.

Since she didn't spend months or years of working on the story without making any headway, we can be certain that she didn't exhaust all of her resources.

Originally Posted by Nanaya

And your basis on that is what? Yes, the Gundams could be pushed around with their projectile weaponry, but no weapon other than their carbon blades could even possibly harm a Gundam.

Well, they managed to capture Kyrios twice; if they were trying to destroy it, it shouldn't be too hard to do.

Originally Posted by Nanaya

But this IS the first sortie of the GN-X. It is tactically sound not to push your luck.

On the contrary, that's precisely the kind of thing you want to do when fielding a new weapon for the first time - maximize the element of surprise and push those advantages as far as they will go.

Originally Posted by Nanaya

Sergei would bet his finite GN-Xs to finish off the Thrones while the other powers still retain a full set? I don't think so.

Strategically, that would be wrong.

The GN-Xs aren't exactly a strategic weapon, so having a few more or less when one is at peace with the other countries won't make that much difference. Besides, by the very act of sortieing, they're "betting their finite GN-Xs".

Originally Posted by Nanya

Nowhere in the series does it even say the powers know that the two Gundam groups are against each other. NOWHERE.

The only thing they know is that there is a traitor from Celestial Being that gave them the GN-X.

You're right. I withdraw that bit.

Originally Posted by Nanaya

Laguna seemingly provided the GN-X to the powers secretly using Ali as a delivery boy. The Thrones take orders from Laguna.

Hmm...

If they knew where the Trinitys were attacking from a reliable source, that would only make it certain that they knew there'd be no possible ambush.

Originally Posted by Nanaya

Or they just got out of the rifles' range. Before Sergei did stop them, they weren't firing anymore.

They were firing right up until he stopped them.

[Terra]

On the contrary, that's precisely the kind of thing you want to do when fielding a new weapon for the first time - maximize the element of surprise and push those advantages as far as they will go.

Most of the time when you're doing that though it's a weapon you've developed and have complete faith in. They're using a weapon that was given to them from someone unknown. Being cautious with it to begin with is only natural.

[astranagun]

Well, they managed to capture Kyrios twice; if they were trying to destroy it, it shouldn't be too hard to do.

But the point is that they managed to capture Kyrios only because it was piloted by Allelujah AND only because there was Soma near so it's like more or less capturing a suit without pilot;easy,no?

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Terra

Most of the time when you're doing that though it's a weapon you've developed and have complete faith in. They're using a weapon that was given to them from someone unknown. Being cautious with it to begin with is only natural.

Not really. Soldiers almost never have complete faith in a new weapon. What they do in that circumstance is to test such a weapon to determine its capabilities and limitations. We can assume that the HRL has already undergone such testing otherwise they'd never have fielded the GN-Xs.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Not really. Soldiers almost never have complete faith in a new weapon. What they do in that circumstance is to test such a weapon to determine its capabilities and limitations. We can assume that the HRL has already undergone such testing otherwise they'd never have fielded the GN-Xs.

What if Sergei saw the Throne attack as the opportunity to test the GN-Xs?

Foolhardy, probably. But who knows what the Wild Bear of the HRL is thinking; he may have some wisdom hidden behind his apparent folly in this case.

It would also explain why he didn't pursue the Thrones. As in, test over, RTB for gas.

[kari-no-sugata]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

What if Sergei saw the Throne attack as the opportunity to test the GN-Xs?

Foolhardy, probably. But who knows what the Wild Bear of the HRL is thinking; he may have some wisdom hidden behind his apparent folly in this case.

It would also explain why he didn't pursue the Thrones. As in, test over, RTB for gas.

The way he talks, I get that impression. At the start he says to be careful and not to damage the units. His and Soma's comments on the unit's abilities suggest they hadn't done much testing with them (they'd only had a few days after all - it looks to me like Ragna deliberately didn't give them orders for a while to let the 3 powers get used to them).

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Since she didn't spend months or years of working on the story without making any headway, we can be certain that she didn't exhaust all of her resources.

Looks like it though. She hit a dead end everyway and was exhausted by the Battle of the Desert in China. The only reason why she went ahead with the Laguna leak was because as she said, that's the first and only lead's she's got. So I'm pretty sure she exhausted everything at that point because she really wasn't getting anywhere.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

What if Sergei saw the Throne attack as the opportunity to test the GN-Xs?

Foolhardy, probably. But who knows what the Wild Bear of the HRL is thinking; he may have some wisdom hidden behind his apparent folly in this case.

It would also explain why he didn't pursue the Thrones. As in, test over, RTB for gas.

Not to mention his rather out of place code of chivalry in comparison to the other characters. I get the sense he doesn't like shooting a retreating enemy in the back. If the enemy pulls out then that's the fight for him unless he's under strict orders to pursue.

[dahak]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

This largely depends on whether Sergei's orders were "Engage the enemy, and destroy them if possible." or "Engage the enemy so that they learn about our secret weapons, but don't inflict any serious damage on them."

Sergei's almost certainly got a set of orders to avoid losing the GN-X's.

Wiping out the thrones at the cost of loosing two or three or given Sergei's past record eight of the GN-X's puts the HRL at a disadvantage compared with the AEU and Union both of who will have ten GN-X's left.

Driving the Thrones off proves the utility of the GN-X and gives the HRL a victory without risking the hardware the HRL will need in the future.

I'm still surprised they deployed all ten. I'd have thought keeping a couple back to reverse engineer would be sensible. But Laguna may have provided complete plans.

[Ichimaru]

I think graham is going to get his custome flag fitted with the GN drive,

the new suits are totally different to the custom flags to begin with anyway....

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Ichimaru

I think graham is going to get his custome flag fitted with the GN drive,

I think everyone in the entire Gundamfanverse want's to see this...I know I've been fiending for it since his fight with Lockon a while ago...

As for the Sergei debate on why he stopped fighting, last time Sergei tried to pull an unknown he lost $hitloads of resources, men, and operation money...I think he was partially playing it safe, but I also believe he wanted his men to FINALLY bask in the feeling of victory as a morale booster...To go off and have maybe another team of unpredicted Gundams kill the momentum they just achieved perhaps was a factor...With the confidence of his own skills in these awesome new suits, and being privy to the next level of attacks on the Gundams, makes this decision much easier IMO...

[Jeffry2009]

I hope That Setsuna FACE 2 FACE with ALI again and he Will Avenge for Kinue Crossroad's Death!! ALi Al-Sarchez Is Going to pay what he's done!!

[Kaioshin Sama]

I finally got my Gundam 00 Episode 20 blog article up if people still care.

And I hope they do as it took me an exceptionally long time to get done. You know, this episode had such excellent character subplots going on that I kind of wish the battle at the end of the episode could have been postponed to give one or two of them some extra time. Still a stellar addition to this increasingly discussable and debatable series though.

[06294086]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The situations are different in that Sergei got into trouble because he tried to be cute and capture the Gundams. If he had been trying to destroy them, he would have probably succeeded.

In this case, there's not a whole lot to gain from capturing the Thrones, and they already held all the advantages.


They already knew that there was a falling out between the two groups. Besides, they had to have a semi-reliable method of figuring out the Gundams' general location by now; otherwise, the GN-Xs shouldn't have been able to get there before the Trinitys completed their attack.


This largely depends on whether Sergei's orders were "Engage the enemy, and destroy them if possible." or "Engage the enemy so that they learn about our secret weapons, but don't inflict any serious damage on them."

The Trinitys had already been reduced to about half their firepower without the GN-Xs taking any damage. If they had pressed this advantage, even if the HRL were to lose a couple of their mobile suits, all of the Gundams would have been destroyed. I'm not sure how that could be construed as anything other than a major success.

And if we look at the tally sheets:
A. A destroyed mobile suit base vs. the Thrones driven off with minor damage suffered.
B. A destroyed mobile suit base and 2 dead GN-Xs vs. the annihilation of the Thrones.


It's the other way around: it takes a certain amount of time to be able to adapt to new conditions like this, while it's completely in the attackers' favor to press the advantage. In classical military tactics, that extra bit of effort is what turns a retreat into a rout.


The most probable reason is that it'd be obvious to many viewers that in the Thrones' weakened state, they couldn't have gotten away unless they were much faster.


You're bringing up a bit of a false dilemma. It's quite possible for Kinue to have researched Ragna's involvement with Celestial Being without making herself out as such an obvious target.



Actually, the Trinitys and Liu Mei (and presumably Ragna) all have the goal of eradicating war as well. The difference is that the creators are taking pains to portray one group as villains.

I disagree with your opinion.

Before Eiffman died, he clearly mentioned that CB's goal is definitely not erradication of wars and the faction which is the closest to the CB (Aeolia) ideal's is the Trinitys +Liu Mei + Lagna. They will treat civilian's casualty as NOTHING as long as they reach their(Aeolia's) goal which is once again, not erradication of war ; completely different with the Meisters.

[Terra]

Originally Posted by Ichimaru

I think graham is going to get his custome flag fitted with the GN drive,

It isn't just a case of sticking a GN Drive into a falg. It's a case of redesigning the entire Flag to not only house a GN Drive, but to use it's power. The Flag runs on a completely different power source. You can't just swap one for the other when it isn't designed for the other. Plus the design of the Flag isn't really right for a GN Drive to be fitted. It'd be a completely new suit.

I finally got my Gundam 00 Episode 20 blog article up if people still care.

And I hope they do as it took me an exceptionally long time to get done. You know, this episode had such excellent character subplots going on that I kind of wish the battle at the end of the episode could have been postponed to give one or two of them some extra time. Still a stellar addition to this increasingly discussable and debatable series though.

I caare. I enjoy reading what you have to say. Especially since I wait for CM's subs. But even if that was out first, I'd still read. Love your comments on the pics.

[Ichimaru]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Why do you think the Trinitys are closer to the real goal, than the other Meisters? They clearly stated, that their mission is to erradicate war, so they definately don't know more than everyone else.

Meisters were takn there time to start/complete there missions.

The only thing the thrones did was speed up the process.

Another difference here? Thrones live in space, so they know nothing about human contact, they close themselves from the outside world, they could care less who they kill, thats why they are successful at completing there goals,

as compared to meisters, who still have conflict of interest and past agendas that isnt resolved.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

What if Sergei saw the Throne attack as the opportunity to test the GN-Xs?

Foolhardy, probably. But who knows what the Wild Bear of the HRL is thinking; he may have some wisdom hidden behind his apparent folly in this case.

It would also explain why he didn't pursue the Thrones. As in, test over, RTB for gas.

Sergei hardly strikes me as someone so inflexible as to not press an opportunity when it presents itself. Besides, the advantages of such a test sort of pale compared to the fact that they're giving away the existence of the GN-Xs for no material gain.

Originally Posted by dahak

Sergei's almost certainly got a set of orders to avoid losing the GN-X's.

Wiping out the thrones at the cost of loosing two or three or given Sergei's past record eight of the GN-X's puts the HRL at a disadvantage compared with the AEU and Union both of who will have ten GN-X's left.

Driving the Thrones off proves the utility of the GN-X and gives the HRL a victory without risking the hardware the HRL will need in the future.

I'm still surprised they deployed all ten. I'd have thought keeping a couple back to reverse engineer would be sensible. But Laguna may have provided complete plans.

Why would losing a couple be of any great disadvantage? The only group the HRL is in active combat with is Celestial Being, and GN-Xs aren't a strategic weapon. Besides, material-wise they achieved no victories; at most they got some cheering from the troops on the ground.

In any case, if the overriding goal were to preserve the GN-Xs, then it was a bad idea to sortie at all. Such action is certain to risk losing a couple of machine with nothing to gain for it if they weren't going to try to destroy any of the enemy Gundams.

Originally Posted by 06294086

Before Eiffman died, he clearly mentioned that CB's goal is definitely not erradication of wars and the faction which is the closest to the CB (Aeolia) ideal's is the Trinitys +Liu Mei + Lagna. They will treat civilian's casualty as NOTHING as long as they reach their(Aeolia's) goal which is once again, not erradication of war ; completely different with the Meisters.

In addition to what The Small One wrote, Liu Mei's stated goal is somewhat similar to eradication of war as well. What she's really going after might still be quite different, but we won't have confirmation of it until we actually learn something about her. Of Ragna, we know very little of substance about him.