Japan Earthquake and Tsunami (March 11, 2011)

[Tri-ring]

Oh please spare us with your "conspiracy" theory.
They just scrapped a nuclear reactor by filling it with sea water.
The government is reporting that there will be an electricity shortage and will place in effect a rolling black out.

TEPCO already stated that cesium had been recorded.
They have shown the hydrogen explosion on TV.
What in the world are you expecting?

What about the melting cake going down into the ground and contaminating the drinking water?

Tell me have you seen the container breach?
Have you heard if the vessel containing the core container breach?

How then can it contaminate drinking water?

As for evacuation, have you ever heard of PRECAUTIONARY MEASURES?

Have you ever heard of a saying, "Better Safe than Sorry."?

Please save us of your fear mongering because that is exactly what it is without FACT.

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by rrw

can you just read the post wholly instead breaking it down

And how am I supposed to show you the difference between: How something is supposed to be and how it really is?

You wrote down the chain of events that happens if everything goes well. When the outer, contaminated (worst case) containment is not blown away. You cannot compare what happened with the theoretical scenario you were using, because that does not represent what really happened.

Originally Posted by rrw

by the way what is your point to make in here

My point was, as stated in my original post that started the whole debate (the one with the numbers). That I'ld move away from that region if I was living there.

Originally Posted by rrw

25% of country energy is lost

Just because there is a dilemma, doesnt make it a healthy dilemma.

[Tri-ring]

Please move where ever you want if you think there is a health hazard.
Nobody is stopping you.

[RRW]

Originally Posted by Jinto

And how am I supposed to show you the difference between: How something is supposed to be and how it really is?

You wrote down the chain of events that happens if everything goes well. When the outer, contaminated (worst case) containment is not blown away. You cannot compare what happened with the theoretical scenario you were using, because that does not represent what really happened.



My point was, as stated in my original post that started the whole debate (the one with the numbers). That I'ld move away from that region if I was living there.



Just because there is a dilemma, doesnt make it a healthy dilemma.

the 25% one is news.

if you read whole thing. it easier to understand.

can you post or quote the original post

[Jeffry2009]

Originally Posted by rrw

^ that make whole thing more confuse

Before/After pic (most of them are stunning)


http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/ja...eforeafter.htm

Looks horrific.... (shocked after seen an after pic of Sendai)I mean how could we possibly survive in this horrific situation?

The answer: WE DON'T KNOW.

[Jinto]

Originally Posted by rrw

the 25% one is news.

I see. Do you happen to know if the rest of the infrastructure (power cables, transmission stations etc.) is intact, that even if there was 100% power output, it could be delivered everywhere, especially in the hard hit regions, that certainly need it most now?

Originally Posted by rrw

if you read whole thing. it easier to understand.

But I read the whole thing, and its not exactly what happened. But I can give you my repsonse without splitting your post up... (though I dobut it gains understanding in the process).

But not safe at this point.

And if the cooling water reaches very high temperatures (because the cooling cylce malfunctions), it can generate H2 in a reaction of water (inner, possible contaminated) coolant with the fuel/moderator rod material. At this temperatures the structural integrity of the fuel rods cannot be guaranteed and a partial melt down can happen. This however exposes the inner coolant to the radioactively long living fuel (some reports state that Caesium-137 a fission byproduct was detected outside the power plant).
When the H2 was vented off, in the outer containment it was possibly (most likely) mixed with O2, which caused the explosion (high temperatures) and the release of the further release of the possibly contaminated inner coolant to the outside (because the outer containment meant to keep it inside was blown away by the oxyhydrogen which is composed of the inner coolant that was possible contaminated with the fuel of the rods which have long half life.

You said, the fuel rods will spill out radioactive contents, and claim at the same time that it does not affect the general populace if it comes into contact with it. Can you explain this a little bit more detailed maybe?

But it is also constructed to release (vent off) contaminated coolant if the inner pressure is too high. Thats basically where it reaches a limit, where something like a trade off is enacted: In order to contain at least most of the inner coolant (which is propably contaminated at this point) part of it has to be vented outside, which is basically breaking the definition of its supposed function... to conceal the inner coolant from the outside. Its a matter of debate if a system that is malfunctioning according to specifications can be considered intact, when it clearly fails to do what it is supposed to do in the first place.

In any case, the outer containment is supposed to catch the released inner coolant in such an incident. But the outer containment was blown away. The stuff that was meant to remain inside came outside. Therefore, it is good to know, that the remaing stuff inside the reactor can be prevented from further leaking, but for the already released coolant it is too late. And now all the containments are contaminated.

Of course it is no Chernobyl. But it doesn't have to, to be a health risk. If A is considered unhealthy, you cannot simply say B isn't, just because A != B. Thats a logical fallacy.

Originally Posted by rrw

can you post or quote the original post

It is this one.

[Mystique]

*is semi amused at the mini physics heated debate going on here between asuki members for pages and pages*

Almost forgot that there may the chance of a humanitarian crisis occuring in terms of fatality and trying to recover missing people (or corpse clean up).
(Not to mention what kind of health crises the lingering water could cause...)

It's currently a race against the clock on that note as well you know, aside from the plant itself...

[Khu]

Japan will bounce back.

They've bounced back from nuclear bombings, they can bounce back from an earthquake.

I dunno, just trying to look on the bright side? ^^;

[RRW]

Originally Posted by Jinto

I see. Do you happen to know if the rest of the infrastructure (power cables, transmission stations etc.) is intact, that even if there was 100% power output, it could be delivered everywhere, especially in the hard hit regions, that certainly need it most now?




But I read the whole thing, and its not exactly what happened. But I can give you my repsonse without splitting your post up... (though I dobut it gains understanding in the process).

But not safe at this point.

And if the cooling water reaches very high temperatures (because the cooling cylce malfunctions), it can generate H2 in a reaction of water (inner, possible contaminated) coolant with the fuel/moderator rod material. At this temperatures the structural integrity of the fuel rods cannot be guaranteed and a partial melt down can happen. This however exposes the inner coolant to the radioactively long living fuel (some reports state that Caesium-137 a fission byproduct was detected outside the power plant).
When the H2 was vented off, in the outer containment it was possibly (most likely) mixed with O2, which caused the explosion (high temperatures) and the release of the further release of the possibly contaminated inner coolant to the outside (because the outer containment meant to keep it inside was blown away by the oxyhydrogen which is composed of the inner coolant that was possible contaminated with the fuel of the rods which have long half life.

You said, the fuel rods will spill out radioactive contents, and claim at the same time that it does not affect the general populace if it comes into contact with it. Can you explain this a little bit more detailed maybe?

But it is also constructed to release (vent off) contaminated coolant if the inner pressure is too high. Thats basically where it reaches a limit, where something like a trade off is enacted: In order to contain at least most of the inner coolant (which is propably contaminated at this point) part of it has to be vented outside, which is basically breaking the definition of its supposed function... to conceal the inner coolant from the outside. Its a matter of debate if a system that is malfunctioning according to specifications can be considered intact, when it clearly fails to do what it is supposed to do in the first place.

In any case, the outer containment is supposed to catch the released inner coolant in such an incident. But the outer containment was blown away. The stuff that was meant to remain inside came outside. Therefore, it is good to know, that the remaing stuff inside the reactor can be prevented from further leaking, but for the already released coolant it is too late. And now all the containments are contaminated.

Of course it is no Chernobyl. But it doesn't have to, to be a health risk. If A is considered unhealthy, you cannot simply say B isn't, just because A != B. Thats a logical fallacy.



It is this one.

25% is BIG and most of power shortage is come from disaster area like Sendai. sure many of infrastructure is demolished but 25% is quarter of japan (the damage of disaster is barely that big)

that why the starting Rolling blackout so that they can focused on disaster area

about your debate. currently reactor one is under control. pressure is been released and radioactive is down. look doesn't mean pressure is been released saying that the reactor is exposed to open air. is not like the reactor suddenly open

unleash if government is lying IT IS A FACT! yes staying away from nuclear reactor is obvious action. but is not as dangerous as you think

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by haegar

the first official press conference of the prime minister - WHY do you think it is he DID NOT EVEN MENTION the world meltdown? If there is no such thing taking place, WHY did he not say "THERE IS AND WS NOOO MELTDOWN!"

Because it causes unneeded fear to the populace before the media can explain what they actually mean?

What about the hydrogen explosion blowing so much particles into the air that they measured 400x norm at Onagawa which is several dozens of miles away?

Onagawa is a different nuclear plant.

Besides, all your statements on "this kind of reactor does not spread that kind of hard harmfull radiation" Reality check. If lightwater reactors do not explode, and do not meltdown, and do pose no danger at all -WHY AGAIN is it they are evacuating 200.000+ people?

The statement isn't that they pose no danger. It's that the current potential worst case scenario is nowhere as bad as the media makes it out to be.

Originally Posted by Jinto

Stuff

The original post he did was a copy/paste from a nuclear engineer on the somethingawful forums. I suggest you read the rest from that guy.

[Fimbulvetr]

On NHK they were talking about a town that was frequently hit by tsunamis in the past, so they built a 10m high massive dam. But this tsunami was higher than that.. I believe the people said it surpasses that dam's height by 4 meters.

[RRW]

Interest: Yoko Kanno Posts Song to Support Quake Victims

[Tri-ring]

I am going to bed and won't be able to connect since there is going to be rolling black out in the entire Kanto are EXCEPT for the 23 special ward.(Turn them off as well )
For those of you who really do not understand the situation I suggest for you to keep your mouth shut since you are making a fool of yourself.

The electric frequency between Kanto and Kansai is different and cannot be transferred easily without going through a transfer which has a limit. Meaning Kanto can only transfer electricity with Chuo Denryoku and Tohoku Denryoku.
Since Tohoku Denryoku is virtually out and various hydro as well as fossil fuel power plants are out as well. It leaves transfer between power plant in the Chuo Denryoku grid but since their are effected by series of earthquakes that hit that region Kanto is virtually on it's own.
This rolling black out is initiated so not to cause a complete black out.

Japan was hit by a Mega catastrophe that had shredded her infrastructure into bits if you have not caught on by now.

When I said it is a once in a thousand years event I was not exaggerating since examining various written history and studying sediments of past tsunamis there is not one that compares this one since the one that hit Japan in the 9th century.

[Quarkboy]

I'm going to be blacked out _twice_ tomorrow, from 9-12 AM, and 7-10 PM.

Yippee.

[RRW]

Originally Posted by Tri-ring

I am going to bed and won't be able to connect since there is going to be rolling black out in the entire Kanto are EXCEPT for the 23 special ward.(Turn them off as well )
For those of you who really do not understand the situation I suggest for you to keep your mouth shut since you are making a fool of yourself.

The electric frequency between Kanto and Kansai is different and cannot be transferred easily without going through a transfer which has a limit. Meaning Kanto can only transfer electricity with Chuo Denryoku and Tohoku Denryoku.
Since Tohoku Denryoku is virtually out and various hydro as well as fossil fuel power plants are out as well. It leaves transfer between power plant in the Chuo Denryoku grid but since their are effected by series of earthquakes that hit that region Kanto is virtually on it's own.
This rolling black out is initiated so not to cause a complete black out.

Japan was hit by a Mega catastrophe that had shredded her infrastructure into bits if you have not caught on by now.

When I said it is a once in a thousand years event I was not exaggerating since examining various written history and studying sediments of past tsunamis there is not one that compares this one since the one that hit Japan in the 9th century.

it's more like the biggest one in japan EVER

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/nndc/struts...earch+Database
__________________

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Mystique

Almost forgot that there may the chance of a humanitarian crisis occuring in terms of fatality and trying to recover missing people (or corpse clean up).
(Not to mention what kind of health crises the lingering water could cause...)

It's currently a race against the clock on that note as well you know, aside from the plant itself...

Along a similar line, there hasn't been too much news about the big cities like Tokyo. I kow they weren't hid as hard as places like Sendai, but how are the big cities faring?

[SaintessHeart]

AFAIK from the cute little Physics debate up there, I don't believe whatever the government says. Radiation leaks are not easily detectable, so unbreached cores doesn't mean no leakages.

Originally Posted by rrw

unleash if government is lying IT IS A FACT! yes staying away from nuclear reactor is obvious action. but is not as dangerous as you think

He is talking about long term. Even up till the 1960s people are still dying from the radiation poisoning from Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Radioactive sickness is accumulated overtime. And due to the long time required for the material to decay until stability, Murphy's Law has to be applied. And nobody knows who is actually infected or not until the symptoms occur - this doesn't apply to humans, but to the general environment as well.

[RRW]

Well how about some goverment/financial talk then

Originally Posted by Khu

Japan will bounce back.

They've bounced back from nuclear bombings, they can bounce back from an earthquake.

I dunno, just trying to look on the bright side? ^^;

pretty much this what japan need if they want to have economy recovery (we discussing economy here so throw away those moralistic issue :P)

it definitely hurt japan for short term but eventually it will have benefit on long term

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

He is talking about long term. Even up till the 1960s people are still dying from the radiation poisoning from Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Radioactive sickness is accumulated overtime. And due to the long time required for the material to decay until stability, Murphy's Law has to be applied. And nobody knows who is actually infected or not until the symptoms occur - this doesn't apply to humans, but to the general environment as well.

yah but it's NO WHERE that close. those Nuclear bomb and Chernobyl is on different scale. this one they manage able to control MUCH MORE better than those to (heck do you even able to control nuclear explosion). yes it maybe some are been contaminated and people have radiation. but so far they seem able solve it in a year

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by rrw

Well how about some goverment/financial talk then

I did an entire chain for the past 10+ pages and got multiple negreps and flames. The disaster doesn't look good for the economy thanks to speculators (especially those property ones pumping in money just for the infrastructure reconstruction), but apparently many are not willing to accept it.

Govt says they have 2b for rebuilding, but I seriously doubt that is enough.

Originally Posted by rrw

yah but it's NO WHERE that close. those Nuclear bomb and Chernobyl is on different scale. this one they manage able to control MUCH MORE better than those to (heck do you even able to control nuclear explosion). yes it maybe some are been contaminated and people have radiation. but so far they seem able solve it in a year

Well he listed the worst case scenario. What is wrong with it?

The thing is, it ISN'T reality because it has yet to happen. At the atomic and subatomic levels, even physicists are still unable to determine the exact nature of the power reaction, and consequences still have some unforseeable ones. And you are arguing on the aspect of news analysis while he is doing scientific analysis. One is full of loopholes while another is largely theoretical. So who is right?

It is just a case of misunderstanding. But that doesn't mean that you don't have to reply with civility and some numbers. Facts are simply opinions agreed by a general majority.

[RRW]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

I did an entire chain for the past 10+ pages and got multiple negreps and flames. The disaster doesn't look good for the economy thanks to speculators (especially those property ones pumping in money just for the infrastructure reconstruction), but apparently many are not willing to accept it.

Govt says they have 2b for rebuilding, but I seriously doubt that is enough.

2b is okay for year at least until japan become stable.

different from Kobe. japan are more prepared on this one (thought tsunami will caused more damage on agriculture and land instead of high rise building which Japanese now strengthen it )

like i said before it will be hurt japan economy for short term (say 1 year) but after that japan economy is bounced back which can make the become 2nd strongest economy again.

considering trend we see pretty much it is safe to speculate this