Character Discussion - Lelouch

[Vampire]

And World of C is not the afterlife. I would prefer Ending 5 too but you'll have to accept that the big damn hero died. Reminds me of Jesus through, having to die for the war's sins and world peace.
Oh well, I can always draw or make a doujinshi for alternative endings, because I'm just too pussy to accept them and damn proud I am.

[Rising Dragon]

Actually the World of C is kind of the afterlife. Had the Ragnarok Junction been completed, the living could speak to the dead. Also, in the dub, C.C. told Mao to wait for her in the World of C.

[Vampire]

That's just the dub, they may have mistranslated it o__O
It's more like an alternative dimension than an afterlife.

[Rising Dragon]

Oh? Just a mistranslation? The dub is still an official work and thus canon. Therefore, what C.C. said is canon--and guess what! She's a leading expert on the World of C.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Vampire

That's just the dub, they may have mistranslated it o__O
It's more like an alternative dimension than an afterlife.

Oh I love that. I absolutely love that[/sarcasm]
How exactly is an official dub less reliable than any of the fansubs going around? These are professional dubbing companies that are paid to translate the show to the best of their ability. They have no reason to mistranslate anything. Whereas fansubbers could be any Joe Schmoe off the street. How exactly is Joe Schmoe more reliable than Bandai?

[Sol Falling]

Well, I think it might also be prudent to point out that C.C. also said that in the originial Japanese: at the time of Mao's death, however, nobody had any idea what 'shi no sekai' actually meant so the fansubbers translated it as 'wait for me in the world of death (also 'shi' in Japanese)'. Anyway, the point is, it's canon in both the English and Japanese versions the the World of C is where you go after you die.

[Revolutionist]

Couldn't the living already talk to the dead? Charles was already talking with Clovis in C's world w/o Ragnarok being online.

Anyways, I noticed something odd after going back to rewatch some R2. Charles erased or blocked memories of Marianne and Nunnaly, and the facts that Lelouch was Zero and that he was a prince. So this meant that he and Suzaku were still friends. It makes perfect sense, however, what doesn't make sense is how Lelouch doesn't recognize Kallen at babel tower. The emperor didn't mention Kallen at all, and Lelouch interacted with her a lot more than just when he was Zero, so he had to know who she was.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Couldn't the living already talk to the dead? Charles was already talking with Clovis in C's world w/o Ragnarok being online.

But that's the first season, and there's no way to tell if Clovis was actually talking back

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Anyways, I noticed something odd after going back to rewatch some R2. Charles erased or blocked memories of Marianne and Nunnaly, and the facts that Lelouch was Zero and that he was a prince. So this meant that he and Suzaku were still friends. It makes perfect sense, however, what doesn't make sense is how Lelouch doesn't recognize Kallen at babel tower. The emperor didn't mention Kallen at all, and Lelouch interacted with her a lot more than just when he was Zero, so he had to know who she was.

The Playboy bunny outfit probably helped in that regard, and with so many memories of her being related to Zero, maybe he just couldn't draw the connection because all those memories were blocked.

[Vampire]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Couldn't the living already talk to the dead? Charles was already talking with Clovis in C's world w/o Ragnarok being online.

Anyways, I noticed something odd after going back to rewatch some R2. Charles erased or blocked memories of Marianne and Nunnaly, and the facts that Lelouch was Zero and that he was a prince. So this meant that he and Suzaku were still friends. It makes perfect sense, however, what doesn't make sense is how Lelouch doesn't recognize Kallen at babel tower. The emperor didn't mention Kallen at all, and Lelouch interacted with her a lot more than just when he was Zero, so he had to know who she was.

Charles deleted memories of anything related to the three conditions: his royal blood, his family and Zero. If he never joined the terrorists, he would've never met Kallen.
And fine, I'll accept the fact that World of C is the afterlife, sarcastic peons.

[ImmortalFire]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Couldn't the living already talk to the dead? Charles was already talking with Clovis in C's world w/o Ragnarok being online.

Anyways, I noticed something odd after going back to rewatch some R2. Charles erased or blocked memories of Marianne and Nunnaly, and the facts that Lelouch was Zero and that he was a prince. So this meant that he and Suzaku were still friends. It makes perfect sense, however, what doesn't make sense is how Lelouch doesn't recognize Kallen at babel tower. The emperor didn't mention Kallen at all, and Lelouch interacted with her a lot more than just when he was Zero, so he had to know who she was.

Well, his quite a bit of his memories of her were as Zero, and many were related to things that happened at Ashford. This would have messed with his mind quite a bit. Though he probably thought she seemed familiar, but couldnt quite remember who she was. He probably would have shook off the thought.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Couldn't the living already talk to the dead? Charles was already talking with Clovis in C's world w/o Ragnarok being online.

Anyways, I noticed something odd after going back to rewatch some R2. Charles erased or blocked memories of Marianne and Nunnaly, and the facts that Lelouch was Zero and that he was a prince. So this meant that he and Suzaku were still friends. It makes perfect sense, however, what doesn't make sense is how Lelouch doesn't recognize Kallen at babel tower. The emperor didn't mention Kallen at all, and Lelouch interacted with her a lot more than just when he was Zero, so he had to know who she was.

One could assumably only speak to, or view the dead's memories inside the actual system, rather than actually be linked to their minds/memories/souls all the time no matter where they were. Access to memory information is different than feeling what those memories did to the individual. Besides, it is a reasonable assumption that unless you had a connection to your target, you would have to literally sift through the memories of every single dead human ever. Assuming otherwise creates several extra plotholes (not that R2 wasn't rife with them already).

Kallen not being recognized by Lelouch in Babel Tower is a plothole since the rest of the Student Council remembers her in Turn 7, while still under the Emperor's Geass. The fact that Kallen could suddenly pass for an Eleven when she was never suspected in Ashford is another plothole.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

Kallen not being recognized by Lelouch in Babel Tower is a plothole since the rest of the Student Council remembers her in Turn 7, while still under the Emperor's Geass.

The fact that Kallen could suddenly pass for an Eleven when she was never suspected in Ashford is another plothole.

That sounds more like what should be filed under suspension of disbelief, particularly the second statement.

There is no possible way, outside of a couple of very blatant examples, for us to determine what the actual racial profiles for any of these character designs are supposed to be...until someone gives us a convenient label.

Only circumstantial evidence, or lack thereof, is available and you could easily assume that Kallen's one of those people who doesn't look particularly Asian nor Caucasian until someone tells you otherwise. That happens both in real life and in Hollywood. Given the necessary context, a person with the "right" combination of genes can easily pretend to be from this or that ethnic group.

As for the Student Council's memories of Kallen...we don't know the specifics about how the Emperor's Geass power rewires a person's brain. Lelouch was able to logically deduce what parts of his memory were missing, but one would think Charles needed to re-arrange and alter a larger amount of raw information in order to achieve his goal and give some substance to the lie, since he literally rewrote over half of Lelouch's life.

The changes to the minds of the main Ashford crew were comparatively minor, removing Nunnally from the picture, and didn't need to be as extensive as what he did to his own son.

[Rising Dragon]

Her demeanor helps as well. Slave!Kallen portrayed herself as a cowed, shy bunny girl. She always kept her head down. And by the time she dropped the act, there was so much chaos going on that we can forgive Lelouch for being more concerned with his life than figuring out who the redhead in the skintight outfit was. Rolo abducting him with Geass quickly probably didn't help matters either.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Her demeanor helps as well. Slave!Kallen portrayed herself as a cowed, shy bunny girl. She always kept her head down. And by the time she dropped the act, there was so much chaos going on that we can forgive Lelouch for being more concerned with his life than figuring out who the redhead in the skintight outfit was. Rolo abducting him with Geass quickly probably didn't help matters either.

The problem is that this was exactly how she should have been remembered in her Ashford persona. Her acting like this would only have made Lelouch more inclined to remember her if he only had his "sickly girl" memories of her.

As for the issue of his mind being too scrambled to remember her, this would come up with the fact that the student council still had pictures of her, and if Lelouch was the only one who "just couldn't seem to remember Kallen" then something would be mentioned about that, if the pictures didn't jog his memory.

If Charles paid more attention to how thouroughly he Geassed Lelouch, then that is all the more reason for Lelouch to have recognized Kallen easily.

If Kallen was able to pass as either ethnicity, it should still have been commented on when she called herself an Eleven. All Lelouch needed to do was say "But you look...a halfblood?"

[Rising Dragon]

I must point out that Lelouch does have more than just a "sickly girl" image of her. His interactions with her had a tendency to bring a bit of her real personality to the surface, like during Arthur's party. That would've factored into his memories.

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I must point out that Lelouch does have more than just a "sickly girl" image of her. His interactions with her had a tendency to bring a bit of her real personality to the surface, like during Arthur's party. That would've factored into his memories.

That's assuming he was left with the parts of his memories where he instigates her to act out. In any case, as long as he has the memories of her meek side he should have recognized her, or at the absolute least said she looked familiar.

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Betteroffer

As for the issue of his mind being too scrambled to remember her, this would come up with the fact that the student council still had pictures of her, and if Lelouch was the only one who "just couldn't seem to remember Kallen" then something would be mentioned about that, if the pictures didn't jog his memory.

If the subject was brought up in that context and assuming Lelouch cared enough to comment, which is something we cannot say for sure. Even then, people can forget and their brains don't give equal priority to every single scrap of information, particularly something of that nature. You could literally make endless assumptions in that direction and I could still argue the opposite, due to lack of official information. Either result seems predominantly immaterial.

Assuming Lelouch still had some vague idea of meeting someone like Kallen before, that doesn't mean he would then immediately reach a clear conclusion when seeing a lookalike in a radically different situation over a year later.

I believe the pictures were found in an old album too, not exactly on a permanent public display.

If Charles paid more attention to how thouroughly he Geassed Lelouch, then that is all the more reason for Lelouch to have recognized Kallen easily.

When a large part of his interactions with her, including those at Ashford, had explict or implicit connections to memories of his past that were probably erased if not overwritten altogether for all we know? Think about it.

I'd figure it would actually work the other way around, if anything, since Lelouch began to pay any conscious attention to Kallen only after the Shinjuku incident and all that it entailed (Geass, proto-Zero, revenge, etc).

[Betteroffer]

Originally Posted by Xander

If the subject was brought up in that context and assuming Lelouch cared enough to comment, which is something we cannot say for sure. Even then, people can forget and their brains don't give equal priority to every single scrap of information, particularly something of that nature. You could literally make endless assumptions in that direction and I could still argue the opposite, due to lack of official information. Either result seems predominantly immaterial.

Assuming Lelouch still had some vague idea of meeting someone like Kallen before, that doesn't mean he would then immediately reach a clear conclusion when seeing a lookalike in a radically different situation over a year later.

I believe the pictures were found in an old album too, not exactly on a permanent public display.

When a large part of his interactions with her, including those at Ashford, had explict or implicit connections to memories of his past that were probably erased if not overwritten altogether for all we know? Think about it.

I'd figure it would actually work the other way around, if anything, since Lelouch began to pay any conscious attention to Kallen only after the Shinjuku incident and all that it entailed (Geass, proto-Zero, revenge, etc).

The thing is, she was on the student council, which was a small well knit group of friends. Even if she was remembered as still being absent frequently (which she certainly would have been), the times she was there would have had her doing occasional assignments with Lelouch or at the very least have her in the same room with him frequently. A guy with Lelouch's mental abilities and methodical nature (keping a book of his expenses) should have remembered her appearance, especially after it turned out that she was a terrorist.

I'm not asking for him to say "Hmm. this girl looks like Kallen. The girl who..." and monologue everything his false memories did say about her. All I'm saying is a "You look familiar." line would satisfy me, but none was given. A comment in Turn 7 to explain that by some weird (convenient) quirk, Lelouch and Kallen never showed up for council work on the same days, thus Lelouch may have met her once at most, would satisfy me (though to a lesser extent as most people would try to note the face of a terrorist they went to school with) thus I believe it was an act of carelessness.

[snowdevil_crow]

... speaking of weird inconsistencies regarding Kallen... remember the Tianzi's wedding? Remember how Nina tried to attack Lelouch and Kallen stopped her, blahblah, and then Kallen thought back over her memories of Nina and the student council?

WHY WAS ROLO IN HER FLASHBACKS? o.O

[bladeofdarkness]

holy shit
he is
kallen and rolo are shown in the same room of the ashford student council (kallen with her ill girl act)
thats nuts

its clearly suppose to be kallen's memory of nina as she once was
and yet...
total fuck up

i cant believe no one spotted it till now