2012-09-15, 05:47 | Link #41 | |
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
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I looked at the Keshe Foundation's website. It does not look like the type of website that you would see from a biotech or aerospace company; it's flashy, quotes a lot from Wikipedia in nearly all areas, and seems heavily slanted toward the average person. Fast judgments aside, I went through a few of their sections. For energy, they claim to have revolutionized solar technology and battery technology; for the environment, they claim to have developed a method of energy production from carbon dioxide and methane gas, as well as a few other things. Sounds great, but this one obscure group did all of those things at once, even though dozens of companies are dedicating efforts to them as well? I'm not well-versed in those areas, though, so I went to the part of their page that I've done advanced studies in: healthcare. I went specifically to their cancer area. Here's what they write: Eradication of cancer by the use of a pen-size reactor is achieved by resetting the magnetic field of the defective cell to match that of the cells in its vicinity, without any radiation or medication or intrusion into the tissue. Does that sound good to a non-biologist? Because to me, it sounds like they have no idea how cancer works, despite copying and pasting from Wikipedia a few sections higher on their website. The problem with cancer is that mutations arise at the genetic level that disables the cell's ability to regulate its replication, and then it replicates uncontrollably. What does this have to do with the "magnetic field" and how does the magnetic field correspond to the mutations? Even if you want to make the argument that each DNA sequence produces its own unique magnetic field, how does that help you to correct mutations? Nothing is impossible, but what's going on seems clear: they're throwing out a bunch of people's dreams (cure cancer, cure world hunger, limitless energy, world peace, etc.) and putting up just enough information to make it sound like they're credible to non-experts. To me, it sounds like they're writing stories. They're involved in far too many areas for what I presume is a new, small company, and if they truly are large enough to really be in those research areas, I imagine they would have no need to copy from Wikipedia so heavily across all of their pages. That the Zeitgeist movement is trying to spread this around really hurts their credibility in my eyes. I guess they're conspiracy theorists? Interestingly, I recently came across a psychology study indicating that conspiracy theorists (and free-market believers) tend not to trust ("believe in") science. I suppose making that leap isn't a big deal: it's a nice fantasy to think that all of the solutions for turning the world into a perfect utopia are already here, but human greed is getting in the way. If you fall into that fantasy, it means that utopia can be achieved if we fight against something. Fighting against things is easy. The reality - that those creations to make the world a perfect place require fundings and hundreds of thousands of man-hours in the lab - is much more boring and difficult. If I weren't grounded to reality and chose to believe what ever I want, I'd go with the former belief.
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2012-09-15, 06:50 | Link #42 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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I don't want to seem like an elitist dick, lording it over with my knowledge, and I don't want to avoid debate either, but typing out pages and pages to teach basic physics seems too much like work, especially when there are very good educational resources online, which will do a much better job then I could possibly do. And anyway, Science is not really based on "debate" anyway. It's based on experimental observation. Quote:
That said, it's not impossible to travel from Tehran to New York in 10 minutes. Need I remind others that you can travel into space (a similar distance), in about a 30 minutes by rocket. It wouldn't be a very pleasant journey though, you'd experience such extreme acceleration that your dinner would be plastered all over the seat in front of you due to motion sickness. The primary obstacle to super fast travel is not power, but air resistance. There are 3 ways I could see getting around this and achieving fast travel: 1. Travelling through space, there is no air in space, and you can travel ludicrously fast. Getting into space is expensive though, but commercial space travel is making advances. However so long as we continue to use rockets, it's going to be gimped (due to the need to carry all your fuel into space). 2. Improved chassis designs to reduce air resistance. This is always advancing, but there's only so much you can do here. Also, you can't avoid breaking the sound barrier, and most people don't like the accompanying Sonic Boom, limiting supersonic travel to trans-oceanic crossings... 3. Vacuum Tunnel combined with a maglev. In a vacuum tunnel, there is no air, and on a maglev there's no contact with the ground, theoretically allowing unlimited acceleration. Of course building such a tunnel (and evacuating all the air from it) over any great distance is somewhat impractical. 10 minutes is a bit overambitious. I think you could get the travel time down to a 30 minutes-1 hour though. |
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2012-09-15, 09:04 | Link #44 | |
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
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And trust me, as someone who does bioscience, this guy's foundation's claims on cancer as they are is BS (even if you somehow made every magnetic field produced in the body uniform, it still won't address the problems of faults in transcription that gives rise to cancer mutations...because the forces holding organic molecules together, electrostatic attraction, disulfide bonds etc depend on more than magnetic fields).....But I still am willing to listen. Because simply put he has not published any formal paper yet. And yes....I do have a physics background before I went into the bio side so it's very obvious to me his videos don't explain much. Yet how do you know he's not hiding something or trying to simplify things without any formal paper? Magnetism arises from moving electric charges and moving electric charges have been allegedly demonstrated to produce an impulse on objects which was directly proportional to the target mass among other things (so it can't be radiation pressure) The people who carried out this experiment concluded the force was gravitational in nature.....obviously this would be major news if true yet no one seems interested in replicating it. Maybe this Keshe guy found something similar to this experiment? Be it actually gravity/EM unity or not since an experiment with that result has been made, someone ought to replicate it no? Well we'll find out soon enough anyway I didn't mean debate as in arguing over nothing...I meant it as in paper vs counter paper research
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Last edited by Cosmic Eagle; 2012-09-15 at 09:41. |
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2012-09-15, 09:33 | Link #45 | |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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Imagine a large gravitational force that acts exactly in the opposit direction of the force that is accelerating you resulting in a forward movement. Now imagine the gravitational force is traveling with you, so that you dont actually escape it nor does it nullify the acceleration that propels you forward. The only thing it nullifies then is inertia. edit: Or think about it this way. The reference object that actually accelerates by a force resulting of propulsion (e.g. a space ship), just has to use counteracting gravity in its inner frame to cancel any perceived acceleration within the system. Even though the whole system in reference is still accelerating, it just canceled out these forces inside (I admit that sounds weird).
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2012-09-15, 09:56 | Link #46 | |||
Kurumada's lost child
Join Date: Nov 2003
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But you got to give this Kesh guy some credit for having the balls to be so forthcoming with his research; to open up a center for the public and invite scientific and public scrutiny is quite a gutsy move. It makes me very curious as to whether he has a devious agenda or if he is really on the bleeding edge of science. Quote:
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Last edited by Sugetsu; 2012-09-15 at 10:16. |
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2012-09-15, 09:58 | Link #47 | |
Senior Member
Author
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Philippines
Age: 47
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2012-09-15, 10:00 | Link #48 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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It's not really gravitational force any more then is it? It's just a mysterious unnamed force.
Gravitational force is the force that draws two masses together. You cannot tell if a particular force is being produced by gravitation, you see a force and conclude due to the circumstances that it's gravitation. @Jinto, All forces accelerate masses, that's what a force is. And you need force to overcome inertia. But the inertia isn't being "nullified", it's just being err "counteracted". It never becomes a non-factor. Also your mechanics are a bit faulty there. To produce acceleration, you must have a force of some kind. That is how acceleration of a mass occurs. IE Force = Mass X Acceleration. You cannot have an "unknown" acceleration. In your case the gravitational force is counteracting the accelerating force, in which case the body in question will not feel any acceleration at all. Inertia is not precisely a force to be counteracted, it is simply the property of a body to resist acceleration. This is not an additive factor, but a multiplicative factor. Mathematically, depending on the scenario, the inertia of a body is identical to it's mass, or alternatively it's momentum. The resistance that you might thinking of overcoming is friction or air resistance, which in itself is a set of forces. In a vacuum like outer space, these do not occur. On earth, this leads to the often mistaken idea that you need constant force to propel a body forwards. This is false, you only need constant force to overcome friction, and then further force to produce acceleration (not velocity). This is why I say you cannot "nullify" inertia. Inertia is why the same force accelerates a small bullet forward at hundreds of meters a second, but only causes the person holding the gun to be pushed back a little bit. The person, possessing larger mass, has more inertia then the tiny bullet. The same force produces a far more dramatic effect on the bullet. @Cosmic Eagle: My background is Mechanical Engineering, so I'm not too solid beyond classical mechanics. That said, just the language he's using is shady. He's basically talking about producing mysterious forces by interlocking magnetic fields (even though electrical/magnetic fields already produce a "mysterious force", it's called magnetism!). There's no reason to call it "gravity", how can we know it's using the same mechanism as gravity? How can you verify it by experimentation? The only way you could prove something was gravitational in nature would be to go down to quantum theory, and detect the so called particle that carries gravity (the graviton), but that particle is still completely hypothetical, and has never been experimentally found in a particle accelerator. Unless there's two masses involved, and they're both attracting one another, there's no reason to say that it's gravity. He's just saying it's gravity because it sounds nice, and more plausible then what a real physicist would call such a new force (something like "hypermagnetism" or similar). But, magnetism is so well studied and documented, I find it highly unlikely he could have found something new concerning it. He's doing bad science. |
2012-09-15, 10:10 | Link #49 | |
今宵の虎徹は血に飢えている
Join Date: Jan 2009
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This keshe guy has not produced any experiments for his basis Still, that's a good point about definitions.......Even so, the possibility of a new fundamental force (or way in which EM works) merits some investigation.
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2012-09-15, 10:24 | Link #53 | |
Kurumada's lost child
Join Date: Nov 2003
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I found one of his experiments. What do you guys think?
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Last edited by Sugetsu; 2012-09-15 at 10:34. |
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2012-09-15, 10:30 | Link #54 | |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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Of course I am aware that you cannot truely nullify inertia, only the resulting forces (for me thats just semantics though).
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2012-09-15, 11:06 | Link #55 | |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
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When he said go back to reading CERN, he said in a literal sense, that it's OK to read CERN documents for sources, just not media outlets. You might wanna re-read it carefully. You're certainly not reading his post right.
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2012-09-15, 17:32 | Link #56 | ||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Now if you want to know what causes mass well... It's a hoax. It makes very little sense. Also, depositing those carbon layers is not particularly amazing. Look at the electrodes inside your car battery sometime. Also, it's completely unreproducible, because they neglect to say what they're mysterious liquid is. As for the reading on the multimeter, that's ridiculously easy to fake. Even I could rewire a multimeter to fake it. Quote:
Also, there aren't any forces that don't interact with mass. Because Force=Mass X Acceleration, it doesn't really work when there's no mass there. |
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2012-09-15, 18:40 | Link #57 | |
tl;dr
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 32
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Just a fun fact. [/themoreyouknow] But it's definitely true that "nullifying" inertia is simply not a thing. If a force is applied to an object of fixed, finite mass (like humans) then it will accelerate. I think Jinto may be thinking of how electric fields won't accelerated uncharged nonconducting objects. But that doesn't mean any masses are "immune" to forces or that there are forces that "do not act on mass/inertia." The simple answer is that the uncharged nonconducting object does not accelerate under an electric field because there is no force. Electric fields only apply forces to charged objects. So it's not that the force "does not act on the mass", it's that the force isn't there to begin with, just the potential field. Spoiler for The long answer is...:
If a net force acts on a mass, the mass will accelerate. That's all there is to it. It's been proven again and again empirically for the past four hundred years, and derived mathematically in many different ways. If Keshe wants to get you across the globe in 10 minutes. he'll need to accelerate you, and to accelerate you he'll need to apply a massive amount of force, and you can bet your body will not survive the Gs. Maybe Keshe's disproved classical mechanics, but classical mechanics has worked pretty damn well for the past four hundred years, so forgive me for doubting that claim.
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2012-09-15, 19:07 | Link #58 |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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Quite right.
And let's be honest here, we're not talking about evolution or anything like that. Classical Mechanics is perhaps the most uncontroversial part of science you can possible imagine. The only people who disagree with it are the crazies who think the sun goes around the earth, and that the earth is supported on the back of elephants standing on a giant turtle. |
2012-09-15, 20:13 | Link #60 | |
Le fou, c'est moi
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 34
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Be a skeptic. Always, always be a skeptic with claims like these. Ask if they have had peer review, ask for the details of their experiments, ask for how their theory fits into and contradict the present scientific understanding. And if you don't understand what they're trying to say -- something quite likely with scientific subjects -- do not assume they know what they're talking about, educate yourself. I'm quoting you but I'm more or less directing this at Sugetsu. And to speak more frankly: Sugetsu, first you admitted you were skeptical of the claims, yet now that people has more or less universally called it bullshit (and it is), you ended up backtracking and are now starting to try to defend it. Don't. Be that skeptic you momentarily were somewhere on that first page. Do it for yourself. |
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