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Originally Posted by Sol Falling
To expand on the "not getting the joke" thing, I want to ask the detractors this:
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About "not getting the joke": You can get a joke and still not find it funny. Take a racist joke for example (not saying this episode is anywhere near that; just using this to demonstrate a point). I can understand what such a racist joke is getting at, but not find it funny.
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In observing the writing and execution of this episode see how SHAFT/Nishio Ishin himself might have had fun writing/animating this part of the series?
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No doubt.
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Can you see how, as an author, Nishio's enjoyment as he was writing it came not from the gratuitous/pornographic quality of the passages but rather the absurdity and outrageousness of the situation he was writing?
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No. I honestly think this is a bit naive. My suspicion is that Nishio's enjoyment came primarily (if not solely) from the gratuitous/pornographic quality of the passages.
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Can you also see how, in SHAFT's choice of BGM and all the exaggerated effects in the animation (Araragi's sinister faces, etc.), the animators were utilizing great humour and creativity in adapting the scene for this audience?
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I found the BGM extremely cheesy. It thankfully lowered the squick level, but also made it impossible for me to take this scene seriously at all, undermining any significant character development that could be read into it. The Looney Tunes-esque bit certainly didn't help here.
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Could you then see how, as these intricately crafted markers of unexpected intensity mingled into the unpredictable eroticism, people were surprised and enjoyed this episode in the same spirit of lighthearted absurdity?
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Given what Nise has been like all along, and given how overused the imouto fetish is, I honestly don't get people being
that surprised over this episode. Nise has been very fanservice-driven almost all season, some of it rather absurd. Episode 8 amplifies it and takes it to a new extreme, but it doesn't represent a startling event given what came before, imo.
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SHAFT and Nishio's fun as author/creators was successfully translated through the anime across to a happily receptive audience.
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Clearly not for some of us, which is why I felt your initial post on this thread was a bit over-the-top.
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That is what these positive reactions and ratings represent. Would there really be any point in looking down on those experiences?
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I think there's justification in being critical of the perceived overhyping of something.
I read some of this thread before I watched the episode. It honestly left me expecting Yosuga no Sora.
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Why does the development have to "go somewhere" in order for it to have meaning?
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Because otherwise you have a bridge to nowhere, and there's not much meaning in that, imo.
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Bakemonogatari, and Nisemonogatari after it, are "talking anime", where both the enjoyment and the meaning comes from the character interaction in itself.
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There's some truth to this, depending on the depth and quality of the dialogue. This episode had decent dialogue, but it certainly wasn't one of Nishio's best handling of dialogue, or even close to it, imo.
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The present developments will have repercussions in all future interactions with Karen, and Araragi's interactions with other characters relating to Karen as well.
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And what will those repercussions amount to? A joke here, a joke there, or something of actual real significance?
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The point of the interactions this time, for their part, were also in the interactions themselves. The exaggerated humour and absurdity already justify Koyomi and Karen's adventures with a toothbrush.
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If you like that sort of thing. Clearly not everybody does.
I don't get why fans of this episode seemingly can't accept this. The sense I'm getting from a lot of the fans of this episode is an assumption that everybody's taste in comedy, fanservice, etc... has to be the same as theirs or the person with a different taste is somehow horribly "biased".
Like Archon_Wing wrote before on this thread, there's a certain arrogance to that.
I'd really like to see the bigger fans of this episode openly state that they can understand and respect why some of us just didn't find this particularly entertaining and/or worthwhile. I'd like to see the bigger fans of this episode accept the fact that some other viewers don't share their tastes, and that such taste differences is perfectly legitimate.
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My point was moreso that, towards people who weren't able to find enjoyment in those scenes on that level, even so they shouldn't write off those scenes as unnecessary or irrelevant because they will have impacts on future developments.
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I'm still waiting for that PM proving this, Sol.
Given what others have wrote about Nishio's approach to Nise, it's perhaps possible that this part of the Monogatari series might be the exception to the rule for him, and he
won't go back to it often.
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I don't expect the final relationship with Koyomi/Hitagi to be challenged in all likelihood by anybody aside from Shinobu, myself. But that doesn't remove all further interactions Araragi has with girls aside from Shinobu and Hitagi of having meaning.
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No, but it makes implied
romantic/sexual situations between Koyomi and most of the female cast a big, pointless tease to me. They can have interactions outside of that specific context, though.
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As I've detailed above, this is an issue of what in the Bakemonogatari series you decide to deem "significant"; though as for what is likely the most successful way of enjoying the series, the answer should probably be "everything and nothing".
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So you have to engage in paradoxical thinking in order to enjoy the Monogatari series. That's good to know.
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Originally Posted by Gohan78
I voted 10/10 because the toothbrush scene was one of the most erotic things I've ever watched, including many hentai. And it is original;
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Calling it original is giving it too much credit, imo. I'm sure that toothbrush-as-sex-toy has been tried before Nise. It is mildly creative because its certainly unusual, but calling it "original" is really stretching it.
And while this vehicle may be unusual, what the vehicle is being used to convey could hardly be more commonplace in the modern anime world.
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That said, I shake my head at those who are trying to sugarcoat the scene as being a big joke. 
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In fairness to them, that BGM
is very cheesy. It's much more comedy music than serious romance/sex scene music, imo.
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Everything in its presentation screamed eroticism, from Karen's moans to her faces, to the focus on her lips/tongue, to the camera panning all over her body, clad in a tightly fitting shirt that highlighted her breasts. Some parts of this episode were certainly meant for humour (e.g. Tsukihi's intervention) but for the most part it was a poorly disguised softcore porn.
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It's sexual innuendo comedy, imo. I usually don't like it when it gets to
this level because "heavy sexual arousal" and "laughter" are two very different things for me, and don't easily mix together.
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People don't change their behaviour so fast and certainly not from some ridiculous pseudo-sexual intercourse. The dialogue between the Araragi siblings wasn't even witty, which could be said of the Shinobu bath scene. Nothing in their interaction could persuade me that their relationship has got better, except because "the plot demands it". If anything, after such a close encounter their relationship should become even more awkward.
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Agreed.
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