[Spoilers] Anyone tired of this loser named Naruto?

[maximus08]

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

That’s a very bad message to send to younger audiences as there are only two types of people that are successful in this world (maybe three or four). There are those that are geniuses, and those that word hard.

Very nice and true ;-)

[U-Sasuke]

Well, I read until you started talking about the chunnin exams. I did not want to read finish it since I am rather tired after a bad day at school. But I know what you are trying to say...i think

Your post does have a few flaws though, first of which involving the contradiction of "breaking the rules". The bell training with Kakashi was meant for teamwork, and I don't believe the producers put it that way to let naruto go unpunished. Please bear in mind that neither Sasuke nor Sakura got any of the bells either.. and Jiaraya was tied up too in the same test.
Teamwork>Self Interest
What you don't realise however, is that the primary Chunnin exams was taken individually and the last question merely used the rest of the team members as decoys. It was used to test one's courage, not the existence of teamwork. Or maybe the producer is trying to say that:
Courage>Teamwork>Self Interest

Who Knows?

As for your point about hard work and natural talent, I find your find way of thinking no different from that of Naruto. Who says when Rock lee lost to Gaara, the lost made him a loser compared to Naruto? Rock Lee won everyone's heart (and of course Gai's) and proved that he is a capable ninja without any jutsu(completing his objectives). Neji may have lost to Naruto too, but he won the recognition from the head of the Hyuuga Clan and proved how he does not deserve the cursed tattoo on his forehead. Gaara lost to Naruto too, but he also gain something he never thought he would throughout his whole life, an ability to love. So why must one grow in status in order to succeed?

As for why Naruto mastered shadow replication so quickly, all I can say is that its was the start of his understanding towards jutsu, just like how I always failed my English test during primary studies but rose to top 5 in English in just 3 months of improvement during secondary 2. He of course would later on master Gambunta in 3 weeks (I think) and Rasengan in 2 weeks.

That's all for now, as I mentioned before, I only finished like 1/4 or less of your post, so pardon me for any mistakes.

[Hunter]

Ah Ebony I missed your miles long posts, I think you break your last record with this one

There are some factual mistakes in your examples but I completely agree with your point as a whole which is kinda too bad it would have been funny to arg againt it.

[EbonySeraphim]

Sorry, right now I don't have time to reply to all of the point against me, but breifly:

It is try that Naruto is a manga/anime generally aimed for kids, but everyone of them usually has a pretty clear and direct message. I've watched other series for similar audiences and usually things don't conflict with each other as much. Kenshin's philosophy of the sword was pretty clear and direct - he knows that kenjutsu(swordsmanship) is meant to kill, but he chooses not to kill because he is atoning for killing many in his past. Kenshin also has recurring themes of never giving up and teamwork but they dont try to overdo this such that it overrides the reality of some situations - i.e. Yahiko would never win against Soujiro just because he didn't want to give up or he made a promise to his woman(girl actually). Flame of Recca - the main character(forget his name right now) was simply just a ninja, who wanted to protect his hime. As small as the audience is, the author is always trying ton convey some theme. I just think Naruto's is a bit broken right now. I'd enjoy it more for what it is if it didn't contradict itself so harshly, and it would be much easier to ignore in the anime if it was produced a bit better (after episode 65ish).

Naruto really does need some character development though. The fact that he has won every fight that matters thus far hasn't caused him to really self-inspect and make changes such that he is better the next time. I know that it is common for the main character to have some wildcard to pull them out of sticky situations, but if they don't control it or it isn't quite garunteed to happen when needed, then it isn't much of a strength. Sagara Sousuke said it well in Full Metal Panic - something like "It isn't a weapon if it is so unstable and unreliable to use." Ok, I think that was pretty far, but I can't look it up right now. You get the idea though. It quite similar to Naruto's Gamabunta summon - right now it isn't his strength if it doesn't come our garunteed when he needs it. Being in complete and utter trouble isn't a good enough due to the fact that it's always possible Naruto doesn't quite know when he's screwed (I mentioned a few situations when Naruto froze).

Also, someone said my logic was that someone should give up if they see no way of success. It isn't quite as bad as it sounds. First, I pulled that situation out of a hat with complete opposites just to illustrate the point better. But justifying it - think hard. Is there really anything you would do if you saw absolutely NO chance of success in? Most people dont play the lottery even though there is always a chance to win the jackpot - it's just so horribly small that it isn't worth it. Fights are a pretty calculated situation too. If you know your opponent, and know yourself, then you should be able to measure if you can win or not to some degree. Going further - examining Naruto and Neji - Naruto stood no chance against him. Naruto is not a long range fighter by any means, and sucks at close combat compared to the ones that actually consider themselves focused on that area. So how was he supposed to beat Neji? Of course he did so in his Kyuubi like state, but that wasn't quite what he knew from the start was going to happen. Maybe Naruto is just too stupid to know he doesn't have a chance which is why he jumps into situations like that.

I started writing too much so I'll stop there. I have to get to class anyways.

[Sienged Leaf]

wow. I disagree with a lot of what u posted ebony but it was posted very well.
Although it kinda felt like u where just trying to make things prove your point. I have felt the same way u seem to at times.

Now for the argument that its just a kids show. THats so true but so point less.
Naruto does seem to move as a character forward and then just end up right where he started well 2 steps forward 1 stwp back....... make that 3 steps forward 2 steps back, witch is not a good thing to do when wrighting a novel.
BUt great for comics and is more realistic then u think. Well at least i think so.
I dont tend to have revolutions as u would think but change over time. But i do have moments when i just say "thats it no more", it works for a while but its not going to last , for me change does take time.

As for Naruto Being STupid. He is not book smart.....but clever, i would say more but i know after reading Ebony i only read the first 2 lines of everyone elses posts.

[Srin Tuar]

Its an entertaining show thats fun to watch.
Get over yourself.

[ritalman]

/me applaudes first post.

I totally agree with that.

The thing I regret the most in Naruto is that the characters' evolution isn't in the same way as in Slam Dunk with Sakuragi and Rukawa.

you know, it's like Naruto and Sasuke


Sakuragi is weak. doesnt know anything but takes Rukawa the genius as a rival. it's ok. it happens all the time.

Sakuragi has an exceptionnal progression curve but always stays below Rukawa (who is progessing as well).

that's what I think is fair. and that's why i like both characters


I'm not against the fact that Naruto grows stronger and stronger. But in no ways he should approach Sasuke's level.

that's the only thing i don't like in the show.


U-Sasuke said that the loser of some matches gained something...
well why doesn't this apply to Naruto.
For example, he could have led a good match against Neji, lost and both of them realized/gained something the same way it happened in the anime.

[lotus_lee]

It would be boring if Naruto (the character) was all perfect. Yea, he wants to become Hokage but it's more interesting to see him overcome hardships and stuff along the way, rather than simply do every perfectly and then become one just like that. Like Jiraiya said himself, a good ninja is one who goes through hardships and learns to survive them, since you learn more that way than simply being perfect all the time.

I understand your reasons there for complaining but really, they ain't worth complaining publicly about. If you don't like it, then just go and watch someone else. Naruto ain't for everyone anyways.

[e2-]

I read throught the whole thread. I must also say that you have good points there but its only a cartoon. Why does every one take it so seriously that they write 8 paged novels of this theme. This is only my point of view.

[sarcasteak]

Originally Posted by e2-

I read throught the whole thread. I must also say that you have good points there but its only a cartoon. Why does every one take it so seriously that they write 8 paged novels of this theme. This is only my point of view.

Because some people simply have the attention span and capability to list and explain what he doesn't like instead of just say "omg diz anime sux lolz"...? I don't have any problem with the length and depth of his post, and while I certainly understand and identify with his frustration (guess why I no longer post in this forum!), I generally "let things slide." (It's somewhat similar to the "this is just a cartoon" attitude some people have expressed, but I don't believe an animated work should be exempt from criticism and judgement.) For me, it's not whether the series is an anime or not...it's whether I choose to treat it like entertainment and shut down my brain while watching it.

[historyX]

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Also, someone said my logic was that someone should give up if they see no way of success. It isn't quite as bad as it sounds. First, I pulled that situation out of a hat with complete opposites just to illustrate the point better. But justifying it - think hard. Is there really anything you would do if you saw absolutely NO chance of success in? Most people dont play the lottery even though there is always a chance to win the jackpot - it's just so horribly small that it isn't worth it. Fights are a pretty calculated situation too. If you know your opponent, and know yourself, then you should be able to measure if you can win or not to some degree.

Well, I know people who: start something, then they realize that it's not going to work, but they still continue to do it until there is nothing to do and he has failed

And I don't think all fights are that predictable (if one doesn't know the enemy, YES you said if one knows), not in reality and definately not in Naruto (they are ninjas, they are not supposed to brag with their technigues). Naruto vs. Neji .. what did Naruto really know about Neji. He didn't know byakugan can see 360decrees, he didn't know about 64hands (or what was it), the fight between Hinata and Neji seemed like they weren't even hitting each other. With Narutos attentiveness he probably learned nothing from that fight, he was just blindly hoping for Hinata to win.

In many Naruto vs X fights the enemy wants to brake Naruto mentally, so they don't kill him instantly (which would be possible in nearly every fight Naruto attends). The problem is that the not-leathal damage Naruto receives is overun by his willpower or this machinae supremacy called Kyuubi.

-Naruto fights like a fool most of the time - that's what he is
-Naruto doesn't learn to fight more like a ninja - well that's his problem and style. He has been trying to get attention for all of his life, how could he suddently change to bee one quiet ninja
-Naruto always gets up after great beating - that sure sucks big time!
-Naruto is able to fight the über ninjas equally and beat them with ever so great Kyuubi, or the enemy suddently becomes stupid and opens for hit. - That sucks too. But Kyuubi is now (unfortunately?) big part of the story as naruto has learned to use it, so it can't be ignored. And have you ever been so sure about something... like scoring in hockey against a kid half of your age as the goalie, that you get careless and the goalie catches the bug... you get stunned and paralyzed for a while.

I'm probably missing your main point here but I think that you are making some errors. And as most have said ... it's anime (for kids) .. no need to analyze it as it was real life. And even more: people love to see the underdog win.

Your point beeing that Naruto gives the idea that with willpower beats all dificulties? Well for example: many experts say that in work life skill+willpower beats überskill with low willpower. And didn't you partly base your point on the fact that Naruto knows he has no way to win. I just think he doesn't know.

So the series would be saying:

If you counter hardship, you should try to beat it. You should not care if people mock you if you are not doing perfectly (strong guys try to talk Naruto down). If you try hard, you will eventually succeed most of the time (Naruto has also lost). Don't be arrogant/over confident (in the beginning of the fights Naruto acts arrogant and gets beaten).

blah .. your post was so long that I probably forgot some of your good reasonings.

I just don't see this that black'n'white.

[historyX]

Originally Posted by sarcasteak

Because some people simply have the attention span and capability to list and explain what he doesn't like instead of just say "omg diz anime sux lolz"...? I don't have any problem with the length and depth of his post, and while I certainly understand and identify with his frustration (guess why I no longer post in this forum!), I generally "let things slide." (It's somewhat similar to the "this is just a cartoon" attitude some people have expressed, but I don't believe an animated work should be exempt from criticism and judgement.) For me, it's not whether the series is an anime or not...it's whether I choose to treat it like entertainment and shut down my brain while watching it.

the best reply so far

[Yogi]

I would like to address the point of Naruto screwing around in school explaining his poor performance.

First of all, Naruto is perfectly able to do Ninjutsu (Kawamari, Kage Bunshin). It's Genjutsu (regular Bunshin) that he sucks at.

Second, looking at all the characters it becomes obvious that most of them learn their techniques not from their teachers, but from their families. Shikamaru learns his father's shadow skils, Kiba learns his sister's dog fighting skills, Sasuke learns his Katon skills from his father, Neji uses his clan's skills etc. etc. The one exception is Rock Lee, who is so similar to Gai that it's hard to beleive they're NOT related.

Naruto, of course, had no family to learn jutsus from, so therefore he'll rather suck. It should also be nothed that Sakura has had no family mensioned, and she also sucks.


One final note I just thought of. Naruto vs. Kiba was a Naruto that has had Kyuubi sealed, his chakara depleted the night before, and his already shoddy chakara control shot even furthur to hell. He was nowhere near his best at the time so the battle really shouldn't count against him.

[EbonySeraphim]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Ah Ebony I missed your miles long posts, I think you break your last record with this one

There are some factual mistakes in your examples but I completely agree with your point as a whole which is kinda too bad it would have been funny to arg againt it.

I'm pretty sure my post was saturated in inaccuracies. I haven't rewatched or reread much of Naruto in long while, and I didn't bother to redownload every episode to verify some of the events or lookup what manga volume/chapter it occured it. But whatever the inaccuracies are, the situation doesn't change. NARUTO must DIE. >.>

Originally Posted by Srin Tuar

Its an entertaining show thats fun to watch.
Get over yourself.

I'd argue that the show has lost its entertainment value, but that's another topic altogether. You might disagree with my opinion and hate me for it, but it has nothing to do with "getting over myself."

Originally Posted by Sienged Leaf

wow. I disagree with a lot of what u posted ebony but it was posted very well.
Although it kinda felt like u where just trying to make things prove your point. I have felt the same way u seem to at times.

Now for the argument that its just a kids show. THats so true but so point less.
Naruto does seem to move as a character forward and then just end up right where he started well 2 steps forward 1 stwp back....... make that 3 steps forward 2 steps back, witch is not a good thing to do when wrighting a novel.
BUt great for comics and is more realistic then u think. Well at least i think so.
I dont tend to have revolutions as u would think but change over time. But i do have moments when i just say "thats it no more", it works for a while but its not going to last , for me change does take time.

As for Naruto Being STupid. He is not book smart.....but clever, i would say more but i know after reading Ebony i only read the first 2 lines of everyone elses posts.

I try to support my arguments well so I only have to listen to good counter-arguments to really pay attention too. I used to argue with one guy by quoting myself all of the time because he would always...not say anything new that I haven't already addressed. It also reduces ambiguity which wastes a lot of argument time - when people don't quite understand each other, then an argument/debate between them is completely useless.

I just plain disagree with taking steps fowards, and then back, as being a good element. Especially when the steps back are so huge. I'm not saying that when a character shows a certain level of ability, he shouldn't be expected to never show less than that from that point on, but if a character is supposedly progressing and getting stronger then there has to be some point where they won't go back because they are simply better than that. Thus far, I don't think I've seen that mark really go up with Naruto. If he and Kiba fought again, there is nothing Naruto is really that capable of doing do defend himself. And all of his attacks are still pretty crappily executed such that anyone moving wouldn't be hit by it.

Also, all little kids are clever. But they all don't get infinite chances at using it because there is a point when they just lose in real life. Like failing a test, or getting beat up because your previous attemps at winning the fight failed. Also, anyone who puts effort into finding a solution and gets better at solving problems, or someone who is talented initially, will always prove more useful than someone who is good (or seems to be good) at finding clever solutions. There comes a degree of difficulty when you just have to work things out because the solution is too difficult to stumble across through guess and check.

Originally Posted by lotus_lee

It would be boring if Naruto (the character) was all perfect. Yea, he wants to become Hokage but it's more interesting to see him overcome hardships and stuff along the way, rather than simply do every perfectly and then become one just like that. Like Jiraiya said himself, a good ninja is one who goes through hardships and learns to survive them, since you learn more that way than simply being perfect all the time.

I understand your reasons there for complaining but really, they ain't worth complaining publicly about. If you don't like it, then just go and watch someone else. Naruto ain't for everyone anyways.

Did I say the character Naruto should be perfect? By all means, not. There has only been one series that was entertaining when such a character was near perfect - that was Berserk. Kenshin was pretty near the top in the beginning of the anime/manga but it was clear there were people that existed that caused him to struggle. Struggling involves losing some, and winning some. The important thing to note is that getting stronger involves knowing why you lost and fixing it, or simple training. Naruto has never lost a real fight, and barely trains. Someone tell me how is he supposed to become hokage level before he's 200 years old at this rate? What's annoys me is his straight wins with no backup of them. His struggles are pretty shallow and involve nothing more than him getting hit, and standing back up just because he was made that way. What a lame struggle. A real struggle in Naruto is a character like Rock Lee - someone who puts in hard work because he couldn't do ninjutsu or genjutsu and thus became an expert in taijutsu using it to attain the necessary power to rise to the top. Or a character like Neji - who struggled with being a branch family member and establishing a twisted philosophy of fate. Losing to Naruto was him getting over that struggle because he was proven wrong. Now he has a clearer mind, and even though his battle ability may have not gotten directly improved, I'm sure he will do much better in his fights from now on.

Too many people are attacking me to posting this, saying it wasn't worth writing it. Well folks - this is a public forum. I was willing to write what I did, and had every right to post it here. Disagree with me all you want, but just because you wouldn't do the same to get your point across doesn't mean it's pointless.

I'll try to get to more replies after I get back to my apartment.

[ninja massacre]

I was going to write a long post about this but it got whole messed up so I erased it and now writing this instead...

Naruto was the first anime I got into and the things I loved about it was the depth of narutos life. I could totally understand the themes of naruto that we for example discover our true strength when protecting other important people.
They don't really explain it in the anime but this made me think of it even more and I got to the conclusion that one human is nothing without another...
the realations we have with people is everything.

But really, the thing I like about naruto is the thing that is so old right now...

Bad Guy : you loser! Your worthless!
Naruto/rocklee or someone: Stands up with pride and stubborness
Bad guy : NANI?!

and then it's Rock 'n' roll!

It was so differnet from hollywood, so much better action, sorrow etc that I got hooked.

[gambit13]

naruto isnt a perfect charachter or a kickass hero....but rather the reason why i like and enjoy this series is the charachter developement of the other charachters in the series.....yes i agree that naruto is lame in every way....but u have to take the fact that he is potrayed as a stupid, brash, idiotic...12-13yr old?...personally i find the anime degrading what is a perfectly escellent manga...sure the fights are more enjoyable but i prefer the manga anyday....

[_Sin_]

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Perhaps the biggest reason why Naruto annoys me is his drive to become stronger. He says he is gonna be a Hokage and is going to work really hard at it, but what work have we seen him put in thus far? He screwed around in school all the freggin time, and only trains when teachers have a new jutsu to teach him formally. What a lamer.

I guess he was just attention whoring with everything he did in the beginning but saw in the end that this isn't getting him anywhere because he was faced with failing the ninja academy again. It's probably the key moment in which he realized that he has to give his all and grasp his last chance and learn the Kage Bunshin no Jutsu. And he succeeds.

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

He should really be trying to improve the jutsu he already knows because he almost never uses them correctly (the few he does), or he could be practicing general ninja arts like throwing weapons, taijutsu, and speed – traditional training like what Rock Lee does. Naruto’s shallow pursuit for power is to take the quickest way there through “uber 1337 jutsu” that he really shouldn’t be learning to become truly strong. If he can never use those jutsu properly, then he probably can fight people on his level with it, and is even further disadvantaged when using it against stronger people who exploit it in some way. You can also tell his impatience during the beginning of his trip with Jiraiya to get Tsunade when Naruto wanted him to hurry up and teach him and ultra-jutsu. In my opinion, Jiraiya teaching Naruto Rasengan was a mistake. He should still force Naruto to become better overall.

Naruto acts like your typical kid in this example. Kids want everything now; but remember episode 2 where he said to Konohamaru that there is no short cut in becoming Hokage and that you'll have to train alot and hard. Naruto did this when learning Rasengan, didn't he? It doesn't matter for me if this jutsu is a high class jutsu or just a basic one. The point is: He spent alot of time into learning it.

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

The last possibility is inheriting success (wealth and status). As I said before, Naruto is not hard working and not a genius. He is possibly lucky, and perhaps you could call him an inheritor of success (Kyuubi). [...] Those with dreams with no talent to back it up, and not willing to put the real effort to work hard for it? No sympathies from me from that group. I don’t think there is anyone in the world that would support someone in such a group so when they is Naruto even a liked character?

I'm pretty sure that Naruto is partially a genius and a hard worker since he learned Rasengan and Kage Bunshin in a short amount of time. His spirit that never dies is actually useful in that it fuels his hard work. There is no way that you can be hard working without a strong spirit and a dream backing you up. The motivation would just not be there. Moreover Naruto is an extremely lucky guy...

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

In the first episode, Naruto follows the advice of a corrupted Chuunin, and steals a forbidden scroll in the village to learn some jutsu and learns the holy Kage Bunshin no utsu in a few hours. First of all, how can this talentless boy learn a jutsu more advanced than the simple stuff he’s supposed to be doing in school in a few hours? If he really is that talented, then it shows how much of a dropout he is in school being that he doesn’t put any effort at all into it.

I tried to answer this at the beginning; he didn't have that kind of determination in the Ninja Acamedy as he had while learning the Jutsu. He might have said that he was working had at the Academy as well but what a character says is not always right and he was learning half-heartedly during the time he attended the Academy. That's what I believe anyway.

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Further more in the first episode Naruto beats a Chuunin, as much of a crappy Chuunin he may have been, Naruto wasn’t even a genin at this point, and was at the lowest end of the academy.

Pretty much a win for the plot only since there were these cartoonish sounds when he beat Mizuki up. Same applies to Naruto vs Sasuke so you did right in not evaluating this scene as important as others.

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

As Naruto makes it on the same team as Sakura and Sasuke, they play the bell game with Kakashi, further showing how much is he a dropout. You see him go after Kakashi and make every bad possible decision. It’s Naruto’s fault again when Sasuke and Sakura give him food, and in doing so they all should have failed. Failure once because Naruto sucks, and twice because Naruto couldn’t be strong-willed enough to not let his teammates fail and beg for food. To redeem his character, we have the weak notion of “teamwork” presented here. It’s all good that they are trying to preach about something good, but they broke a rule, during a test. To say “they were supposed to break it” was a retarded lesson/thing to teach. Obviously they weren’t allowed to break the rules under the 1st Chuunin Exam, when those who broke the rules failed automatically. In my opinion, the first “fix” (teamwork) was the lame thing that was put there to take the focus of Naruto’s inherent crappiness.

Actually I think they were supposed to break the rules if it would profit the team. It's Kakashi's theme that "Ninja who do not follow the rules are called trash. But Ninja who abandon their friends are lower than trash." so I don't think that's a weak attempt to justify Team 7 breaking the rules.

Sorry, but I'll have to stop here because I do not have the motivation and energy to answer this post in one go (I don't know if I will even follow up with a second post... ) so I'll stop here. At the very least it's some food for thought.

PS: I usually enjoy reading long posts And this one deserves a +rep.

Server is busy >_< I hope this won't end up as a double post...

[daflecta]

First of all: Nice post. I never skip a good (and long) character analyse. I can’t comment on everything you wrote because it wouldn’t fit on one server , but here’s my ten cents:

First of all, I partially agree that due to all the analysing you seem to forget that it’s a manga / anime that drives on a more romantic aspect of life: Naruto’s dream to become Hokage, and not: Naruto’s masterplan to become Hokage.

It’s just not in Naruto’s character to be tactical, but I think that this is mainly because he’s still just a kid. Let’s say Naruto becomes Hokage at age 20, I don’t think that he will be so short-sighted or clumsy at that point.

I guess you can say that in tactical aspects, Naruto is little talented, compared to Neji. But Naruto has definitely talents in other fields. For example: I think it was Temari who said that Naruto is pretty good at using the right move for the right moment. And there are a dozen people who said that he has unbelievably high stamina.

And don’t underestimate Naruto’s drive to become stronger and his ability to never give up. Cause that IS Naturo’s talent. He might no be a high skilled shinobi, but he sure as hell won’t lose a fight.

Also I would like to remind you that all of naruto’s accomplishments occurred in ‘Naruto time’ from the beginning til the present (anime) is like 6 months or something. Keeping in mind the 6 months timeframe, Naruto has definitely grown allot. At this rate there’s no stopping him.

Well, I could go on for ages but I won’t because it’s all a matter of interpretation.
I’ll just say this: Naruto is indeed in many aspects still not a good shinobi, but we all know that, even Kishimoto knows, why else would he let Naruto not become a chuunin.

Naruto is still young, but he definitely has talent. At some point Naruto will learn strategic and tactical know-how simply because brute force can only take you so far. And I believe Naruto knows that. And don’t forget Jiraiya started his life as a shinobi very similar to Naruto, and he turned out just fine (ahem)

[complich8]

Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Naruto has never lost a real fight, and barely trains.

(and other "naruto doesn't lose fights, and doesn't train" stuff).


Naruto has had his useless times. Like in the earth barrier of the first of the sound four. He was rendered powerless, and he knows that alone he wouldn't have won the fight.

Since we're in manga-land, he HAS lost to sasuke, in about as real a fight as you can get. He fought with the sannin and pretty much fought Kabuto to a draw -- neither could continue that fight. May as well have been a loss.

You say he doesn't train ... but to be honest, day to day training is boring to watch. Would you enjoy reading 6 volumes of manga where all he does is mold chakra, make kagebunshins and have them fight each other to expend his chakra?

We don't SEE him train. We don't see sasuke train either. We've seen indications of the sort of training he does, and Sasuke as well, and Lee, and Chouji. But you have to assume (and correctly at that) that between every mission we see, in every bit of downtime, there's the training that constantly shows itself.

He did that even before he was a genin. We were shown (in his flashbacks) the stuff he'd do every day. The constant physical training he'd put himself through, the hard work he invested to get to where he is. His whole life, he'd been training every day.

I don't think you can really say he doesn't train. Yeah, he could probably be training more efficiently. Yeah, he could probably be doing better for himself. But remember that everything he had done before Jiraiya's summoning training he was inventing his own path, with no guidance from anyone who understood how he worked or how to train him.

[UserName]

...

Yeah...

...

Naruto sure is annoying. (Just so you know this isn't sarcasm just that typing all that...).

I really would wish Naruto would change. First step in his path to be less annoying is killing Sakura or Sasuke or at least forgetting about them.