2009-02-18, 20:36 | Link #2241 |
differently sober
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Italy
Age: 41
|
Loli, just to make you happy and try to give you an alternative explanation (very dull, honestly, but I feel like playing with this) for the kiss there - my insomnia is less awesome than Nobodyman's, I'm half asleep actually..oh wait.. it's not night for Nobodyman now ) - the kiss is there because:
First sight: it was there to wrap up all the memories.. I didn't honestly paid any attention to how long the flashback lasted, and I wonder, as usual, how much thought the staff put into that.. Elaborating a bit: it was anyway a very intense moment for Lelouch and the last attempt someone did to seek the truth behind his epic trolling of the evil Emperor. The last act of devotion Karen showed to him that actually pushed him forward in his recognition of the real values he was supposed to embody and fighted for in the end, even through a lie... so "goodbye Karen, my Q1, you believed in me and this gave me strengt, I had to push you away because I don't want you to dirty your hands with that, but knowing your still had faith in me makes me stronger" dull explanation, yeah, maybe . Alternative: (that is more Kalulish, but also more trustworthy keeping everything in account) the regret.. what coud have been if... a thousand of things we all know already. Aka Lelouch having some romatic feelings for her, but more blurry for me than what you think. ... now I'm seriously going to bed, goodnight guys XD Last edited by Levy; 2009-02-19 at 12:11. Reason: lol I re-read it and I was really half-sleeping it seems.. XD |
2009-02-18, 22:59 | Link #2243 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
he later on uses what happens to farther his goals despite knowing the truth (that he is the real mass-murderer)[/QUOTE] I doubt he could have explained what really happened, due to the outrage from the Japanese. |
|
2009-02-19, 04:19 | Link #2244 | ||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
|
Quote:
the point was that lelouch has always been willing to use those closest to him when it suited his needs even when the result would be their destraction which is why his later actions regarding kallen are so uniqe in the one situation when he is faced with the biggest battle of his life with the fate of the entire world at stake he forgoes using his (up till then) most powerful and loyal follower despite never having any problems having her fight on his side before despite using everyone else who he can get his hands on and is of use to him (nina, kaguya, sayoko) and despite kallen practiclly walking up to him and ASKING "whats the plan"
__________________
|
||
2009-02-19, 05:13 | Link #2245 |
differently sober
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Italy
Age: 41
|
To be fair, Lelouch used a lot of people in ZR yet planned an escape for all of them, and I think this makes an important contrast with the person he was before turn 21.
About Kallen, using her in ZR was not possible if not in a way that would have meant bringing her down the demon king & friends path with him. I see where you are coming from, and I see how this fits with side materials and stuff, but having her out of the ZR is maybe the part that makes sense the most also in a 'my dear friend - only' vision of his feelings for her - and, just to make it clear, I'm not in any way saying that it is the closest to truth with this - but still, if you care for someone, you try to protect him and spare him sorrow as much as you can. Having Kallen in ZR not only would have meant risking her life, but put her fate on a dead end track. If she survived, she could have never return to her life, her family and friends, and Lelouch didn't want that. Suzaku can't go back, he himself can't go back, Kallen still had that chance and he knew... it's not strictly necessary that he loved her romantically to decide he didn't want her to ruin her life for him. I think that a non-romanticall form of love is more than enough to decide that you do not want to ruin the life of someone that is dear to you, even if this goes against your convenience, so, seeing it as caring instead of romantic love is not in any way downgrading the importance of what Lelouch did for her keeping her out of his plan. |
2009-02-19, 05:28 | Link #2246 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
|
during ep 24 he was planing to charge at the damocles WITH the avalon AND the hostages (he said so himself)
that means that sayoko nina Lloyd and cecile wouldnt have an "escape plan" by pretending to betray him its only AFTER xing-ke sinks the avalon that he changes the plan and tells them to "betray" him by releasing the hostages (and buying themselves the benifit of the doubt from xing-ke and kaguya) the original plan wouldnt have contained the exit strategy taht his followers used since the OOBK would have never liberated the avalon
__________________
|
2009-02-19, 05:50 | Link #2247 |
differently sober
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Italy
Age: 41
|
My point is... Lelouch is changed from the man that indiscriminately makes use of people he used to be, and the fact that he plans an escape for those people he just barely cared about shows you this.
Moreover, Karen is very dear to him, and, unlike said people, there was no way of including her in his plan and having her rehabilitated in society if she survived the battle. Keep in mind that the existence of Geass is not of pubblic knowledge, Karen would have had been considered the same as Suzaku if she fighted by his side on her own will. She would not get into the future, and this is the last thing Lelouch wanted for her, so he taked the risk of having her running around on her Gurren and cross his fingers that this won't turn out in the failure of his plan, but I think that a 'caring' form of love is more than enough to justify this from his side. There's probably more than that, but I think this wouldn't have changed even if the relationship between them would have never been developed as romantical. |
2009-02-19, 06:21 | Link #2248 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
|
i rather think that the very fact that there even IS a change is indicative
becouse in every other aspect lelouch has changed for the WORSE after ep 21 where as once he was still using his geass with some level of morality during the final eps he uses it to turn thousends of people into slaves and cannon fodder where once he was less then willing to involve his friends in his battles he kidnapps nina by force to use her skills (he also doesnt have any problems destorying his BEST FRIEND'S life) he declares clearly and inteniotnally that he will spill "rivers of blood" he is even willing to use his geass on NUNNALY (in season 1 he had no intention to use it on suzaku at first) and at one point comments that if he has to kill nunnaly for the sake of ZERO-R then it cant be helped he crosses many lines that would turn most characters into complete monsters (the fans are blinded by his awesome leather pants) having kallen fight for him (and risk her life and future for it) is NOT a new concept she had been doing it since ep 2 of season 1 (its her defult setting) lelouch choosing NOT to have her fight beside him (despite changing for the worse in every other aspect) is rather significant we know that nunnaly is the most importent thing in his life but if he has to choose between her and ZERO-R then he chooses ZERO-R thats how importent ZERO-R IS and yet instead of having kallen fight for him during it (again, its her defult setting) he makes a deceision to CHANGE the way things have always been and have her become his enemy instead there is something to this that you are not admiting that the change in lelouch's character during the final ep is NOT for the better in any other field he completely loses any morals he held during the past 45 eps (not that he had all that much) and he does so intentionally becouse the mission he faces makes it needed for him to do so he willingly and intentioanlly turns himself into a monster greater then his father he didnt change " from the man that indiscriminately makes use of people" but rather changed TO "the man that indiscriminately makes use of people" and not mearly uses them but turns them into his brainwashed slaves and AT THE SAME TIME he does something for kallen thats stands in complete contrast to every other changes that he undergoes during the final arc
__________________
|
2009-02-19, 07:13 | Link #2249 |
differently sober
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Italy
Age: 41
|
(moving this to Lelouch's thread as soon as I'd have a chance to go tl;dr on my take on his Emperor persona, because it will be really tl;dr I fear, and way off topic... so see you there, eventually )
..and..and *tries desperately to seek something to keep be on topic*.. new PD is out, am I right... how gay it is? I mean, how much the feelings for Lelouch from Rollo's side are potrayed as romantical? not that I really care all that much - quite the opposite - but it was first new thing that popped into my mind ^ ^;; Last one, I was a bit disappointed, there was the gay whip but not as much Scheneizel/Kanon as I expected ...it was honestly a pretty pointless PD. And Cécile's wardrobe is ... duh... embarassing at best. Lol fanservice... XD;; |
2009-02-19, 10:03 | Link #2250 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Los Angelas, California
|
Quote:
|
|
2009-02-19, 23:38 | Link #2251 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
Why would some memories be longer than others as lelouch died? I think they help to seperate different stages in his life: the kiss placed between ZR and the events of R2( before ZR ), the image of him and rolo together between the first and second season and so on. Some might say that ZR started before the kiss, but it was only after it that lelouch started to act evil and made the black knights and the world his enemy. Why Shirley appeared, I cannot say...perhaps because he is meeting his death, like she did. Thanks to Mystique for having posted here. I think that was a good thing: not watching the series allows one to give an unbiased translation and interpretation( not that I'm saying the other translators were biased , far from that ). When it is said that kallen understood lelouch's feelings, I think it was stated that it was about his wish for her to live with her own dreams. So, deducing from that that kallen understood that lelouch loved her and linking that part to the poem might not be a good idea. It is an interpretation which may be right, but wrong as well. |
|
2009-02-19, 23:52 | Link #2252 | ||
No Eyes
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Dirac Sea
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2009-02-19, 23:53 | Link #2253 | |
~Hi -mi- tsu des~
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canada
Age: 39
|
Quote:
Interpretations are made using your own thoughts of available information, there is a reason why archeologists still have differing opinions on the disappearance of the homo sapien archaics like the Neanderthals. Interpretation by their very nature contain bias as it is a person's own thoughts on what they believe the information represents. The only unbiased opinion there can be is from the creators of the story as they know what they intended and can tell us without having to interpret what is shown. |
|
2009-02-20, 00:06 | Link #2256 | |
U Mad?
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Brooklyn NY
|
Quote:
I was going to post something similar to both posts before I saw them. (So the hive mind is in effect. ) Decided against being "aggressive"
__________________
|
|
2009-02-20, 00:09 | Link #2257 |
~Hi -mi- tsu des~
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canada
Age: 39
|
To be honest, if Frost have not linked me here, I'd still be blissfully unaware and likely playing Star Ocean the second evolution instead of replying.
I just love how debating something you disagree with is now being aggressive. |
2009-02-20, 00:13 | Link #2258 | |
U Mad?
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Brooklyn NY
|
Quote:
But I am enjoying the perception that the entire kalulu argument was based on the poem alone. The translation reiterated exactly what has been said by original translations with a simplified view. But y'know...
__________________
|
|
2009-02-20, 00:22 | Link #2259 |
~Hi -mi- tsu des~
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canada
Age: 39
|
Well that is where interpretation comes in. Some believed that the Neanderthals evolved into homo sapiens sapiens, some believe they interbred with the homo sapien sapiens and some believes that they were marginalized by the homo sapien sapiens and being pushed into areas they were not adapted to and died out.
|
2009-02-20, 01:24 | Link #2260 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
Thanks for the replies Well, I'll stick with cluclu and the fact that 'yearn does not mean 'feel'. The word 'instead' had bothered me. About the poem, It already represents kallen's 'inner thoughts'. What I mean is that the poem can be interpreted in different ways. Someone who did not watch the series will give an opinion according to the words he/she is given, not based on other interpretations which have chances of being wrong, and what we need to interprete is in fact the poem itself. I wonder if I made myself more clear. |
|
|
|