Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Tak]

Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge

Kanon is similar, having Ayu be present but going through most of the other girls' stories as discrete story arcs. (Nayuki got shafted, IMHO, but that's a story for another thread)

Ugh, don't get me started on Nayuki.

Then there is Shiori. The way they handled her is just... *Sigh*

- Tak

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge

Not just the game. The anime definitely had discrete arcs, which were only different from the game in that Nagisa was present and obviously Tomoya's choice from the get-go.

Fuuko's Arc, Kotomi's Arc and portions of Tomoyo's are in season one (with the rest of Tomoyo's as a bonus to season one), as well as Nagisa's School Days. After Story covers the meat of Yukine's, the Sunoharas', Misae's and Nagisa's After Story. Kyou's Arc is the bonus for that season.

I probably missed an arc or two.

Kanon is similar, having Ayu be present but going through most of the other girls' stories as discrete story arcs. (Nayuki got shafted, IMHO, but that's a story for another thread)

No matter how you look at it, Nayuki did get shafted and either Shiori or Nayuki should have been the choice in my opinion but like you said, another topic, another day (although I went on my little mini-rant there but I just had to.)

Like I said earlier, although the main focus was on Nagisa throughout the the series, most of the characters got their time to shine (even though some probably didn't get enough but that all depends on the person.)

[Ithekro]

At least I liked Nagisa. Ayu was cute, but I didn't like her the way I like Nagisa.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

At least I liked Nagisa. Ayu was cute, but I didn't like her the way I like Nagisa.

Agreed Something about Nagisa's personality and how she also really did have a hand in developing Tomoya's character.

[FhnuZoag]

Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge

Kanon is similar, having Ayu be present but going through most of the other girls' stories as discrete story arcs. (Nayuki got shafted, IMHO, but that's a story for another thread)

The thing is, though, with Kanon, it was never very obvious that Ayu was supposed to be special to Yuuichi in any way. Nagisa and her family (do Sanae and Akio even appear except when Nagisa is involved?) were integral to the story, and Tomoya definitely considered her The One.

But Ayu just seemed like just another member of the harem. So, the ending of Kanon lost a lot of impact, since Yuuichi had already previously encountered similar things happening to several others close to him, and gotten over it pretty darn quickly in time for the next girl's route.

That said, hmm, maybe Kanon may be more like Clannad if Nayuki was the one true pairing.

[spawnofthejudge]

Originally Posted by FhnuZoag

(do Sanae and Akio even appear except when Nagisa is involved?)

Well, Nagisa's present in most routes in some capacity, so Tomoya always has the opportunity to meet Sanae and Akio. Sanae is integral to Sunohara's route, as well.

[Michie_]

Loved the ending but aren't people making it a little bit more complicated than it was
I'm not sure who said it in the after story but he/she said that when something good happens a orb of light appears and with enough light orbs you can make a wish.
Throughout the story Tomoya does a lot of things that makes orbs appears and at the end of the story he makes his wish.
Time resets it self then and Nagisa and Ushio doesn't die.

The only thing i wanted to see more "besides more akio" was to see Naoyuki his fate in the last episode

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge

(Nayuki got shafted, IMHO, but that's a story for another thread)

What!!! At least for me she was carrying the damned show the first few episodes.

[Death Header]

Since this series focuses so much on Tomoya (and Nagisa), I was wondering if Tomoya fits the definition of "shounen hero syndrome" that charred_knight was talking about a long time ago (someone who gets an incredible amount of focus in a series)? I'm sure most characters in anime have this trait, but I just want to make sure.

[Archon_Wing]

When I think of the term "shounen hero syndrome" it makes me think of the point when a shounen series goes down hill. This is inevitably the point when the hero becomes so massively overpowered that the rest of the cast is essentially useless. When we see other members get involved, it's frequently a waste of time because they are really just there to show how powerful the villain is. Occasionaly they can take on the lesser thugs, but hardly is that relevant. Thus, the show will often just devolve into a chorus of the main character's awesomeness.

I don't think Tomoya falls in this case many stories to tend to just focus on the main leads near the end. The parents are also very prominent in this story still. The supporting cast does still get shafted a bit here though, but their appearances are not superfluous.

[Ithekro]

Unlike most "harem" type stories, Tomoya is the most popular character. Usually it is one or more of the girls over the male lead, but Tomoya is different. He actually evolves during the story. Its his story eventually, not the girls story he happens to be part of. That might be the reason Nagisa works, because instead of Tomoya fixing her problems for her entire arc, she's fixing his problems once the Drama Club is established. The story is about him.

[spawnofthejudge]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Unlike most "harem" type stories, Tomoya is the most popular character. Usually it is one or more of the girls over the male lead, but Tomoya is different. He actually evolves during the story. Its his story eventually, not the girls story he happens to be part of. That might be the reason Nagisa works, because instead of Tomoya fixing her problems for her entire arc, she's fixing his problems once the Drama Club is established. The story is about him.

This. The aspect of not having a flat male lead and the character development that he went through... the set up for his father as his foil through Ushio... The 'earn your happy ending'... The very fact that Tomoya was treated like a character and not a stand-in.

I love Clannad

I'm not so sure about the 'most popular character' bit, but I really like him, unlike most harem leads.

[Sidestep]

Yes, Tomoya is a very, very impressive character.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Unlike most "harem" type stories, Tomoya is the most popular character. Usually it is one or more of the girls over the male lead, but Tomoya is different. He actually evolves during the story. Its his story eventually, not the girls story he happens to be part of. That might be the reason Nagisa works, because instead of Tomoya fixing her problems for her entire arc, she's fixing his problems once the Drama Club is established. The story is about him.

Just to add to this if I may. I hope that people realize how much of a significance Nagisa had in developing Tomoya's character and vice-versa. Without Nagisa, Tomoya wouldn't have developed as a person and most likely would have stayed a delinquent for the rest of his life (granted that Tomoyo has the same affect on Tomoya's character but the focus is Nagisa here.) Also Nagisa would have probably stayed in her shell and gone on with a very quiet life but probably ignorant to the real world. Without each other, they wouldn't have developed into the characters that we were exposed to.

I think Sanae's hand in helping develop Tomoya's character is also under-appreciated but that's only in my opinion. The way that Sanae handled Tomoya's situation was probably one of best decisions that could have been made. Nagisa made Tomoya face his issues about his father (or demons as others would say ) and Sanae finished it off by creating a situation where Tomoya realized how similar of a path that he was taking compared to his father.

What I enjoyed most about Clannad is that the heroine not only helped the male lead develop as a character but the girl herself developed along with him. It's more about how they helped each other become popular in their own rights.

[spawnofthejudge]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Just to add to this if I may. I hope that people realize how much of a significance Nagisa had in developing Tomoya's character and vice-versa. Without Nagisa, Tomoya wouldn't have developed as a person and most likely would have stayed a delinquent for the rest of his life (granted that Tomoyo has the same affect on Tomoya's character but the focus is Nagisa here.) Also Nagisa would have probably stayed in her shell and gone on with a very quiet life but probably ignorant to the real world. Without each other, they wouldn't have developed into the characters that we were exposed to.

I think Sanae's hand in helping develop Tomoya's character is also under-appreciated but that's only in my opinion. The way that Sanae handled Tomoya's situation was probably one of best decisions that could have been made. Nagisa made Tomoya face his issues about his father (or demons as others would say ) and Sanae finished it off by creating a situation where Tomoya realized how similar of a path that he was taking compared to his father.

What I enjoyed most about Clannad is that the heroine not only helped the male lead develop as a character but the girl herself developed along with him. It's more about how they helped each other become popular in their own rights.

Basically, no character was ignored: everyone developed and was tended to by someone else in some way. Sanae may have created the situation, but I blame Tomoya's grandmother for finally making Tomoya see the 'Sins of the Father' situation. Sanae was good at that; she does similarly (though not with nearly as good an effect) for Sunohara.

In short, though, I believe that every character in this show/game is worth studying.

[Death Header]

Originally Posted by spawnofthejudge

Basically, no character was ignored: everyone developed and was tended to by someone else in some way. Sanae may have created the situation, but I blame Tomoya's grandmother for finally making Tomoya see the 'Sins of the Father' situation. Sanae was good at that; she does similarly (though not with nearly as good an effect) for Sunohara.

In short, though, I believe that every character in this show/game is worth studying.

So I'm guessing that charred_knight's point about the whole "shounen hero" syndrome is wrong then? Since most of the characters were covered well in 00 and it wasn't just about Setsuna himself.

I don't think Tomoya falls in this case many stories to tend to just focus on the main leads near the end. The parents are also very prominent in this story still. The supporting cast does still get shafted a bit here though, but their appearances are not superfluous.

And yet, Tomoya was the central focus of Clannad, especially since only Tomoya was the main focus in the series of Clannad (it was his life after all). The parents did have a bit of a role in Clannad, but I felt that they were more of a supporting role instead of being in the spotlight themselves.

I'm guessing that the "shounen hero syndrome" is null and void for the most part, except for a few series?

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Death Header

So I'm guessing that charred_knight's point about the whole "shounen hero" syndrome is wrong then? Since most of the characters were covered well in 00 and it wasn't just about Setsuna himself.

And yet, Tomoya was the central focus of Clannad, especially since only Tomoya was the main focus in the series of Clannad (it was his life after all). The parents did have a bit of a role in Clannad, but I felt that they were more of a supporting role instead of being in the spotlight themselves.

I'm guessing that the "shounen hero syndrome" is null and void for the most part, except for a few series?

To put it bluntly, yes. Tomoya does not fall into the "shounen hero syndrome" that was told to you. Tomoya is a prime example of how a male lead should be developed, at least in my opinion.

[Haak]

Gaah, this episode was sweet and all but no matter how hard I look at it, the whole reset button seems like a total obvious plot device.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Haak

Gaah, this episode was sweet and all but no matter how hard I look at it, the whole reset button seems like a total obvious plot device.

I loved that episode (Family Guy that is)

Yeah, I can understand how everyone would feel about this episode, it's more of a mixed reaction. It didn't really bother me as much but that's my bias because Nagisa was my favorite heroine You can call this a plot device but the problem I see is that you can actually question it. It's not like the events that transpired during episodes 16-21 didn't happen, they did and Tomoya even remembers those events. I admit, it can be argued either way though.

[Ithekro]

Basic problem with "giving the audiance the finger" theory is that they didn't. Simply put, the previous episodes effect and change Tomoya and this is proven in episode 24 even more so than in 22. If this had been the finger treatment, the previous episodes would do nothing to Tomoya and just be for the audiance to try and get some meaning out of them.

Secondly, this is how the original source material ended, though after a series of going through every game arc, again and again until you managed to get through them all. Then you get to see this ending. By that point in time, the "player" deserves this ended and is meant to feel that Tomoya deserves it as well.

However, if the ending had been just 21...I think it would have felt like a finger to the viewer/player. All that, for nothing...just a dead family...mother, father and child. It wouldn't feel right when you have other mystical things happening around them (a cat that gets turned into a human for a time, a girl that's spirit can go around and carve starfish for her sister's wedding. and a guy that can survive multiple forced head trauma from dictonary impacts and repeated rapid kicks to his person).