2009-05-03, 16:35 | Link #21 | ||||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Quote:
But to me this only demonstrates that he was "aiming" at Saki and not that he wanted to "kill" Saki, although i can't find many other explanation. Yet again if he wanted to kill Saki he had better ways to do that rather than killing her while naked in front of two police officers (and under surveillance camera). Quote:
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That apart i think that she wanted to make a wish by tossing a coin in the most important fountain in the world. I don't even want to try to imagine what kind of mental process makes her think that way, but she does say "this is the center of the world". She probably didn't really believe her wish would be granted, probably it was for the romanticism, tossing a coin in the fountain at the center of the world, and make a wish upon it. That's probably something she devised to ease the pain in her heart. And this probably means she was thinking about her lost love. Quote:
However why she reacts to that name? It looks like Saki heard that name before, and that makes me think that maybe she is in contact with another seleçao. Quote:
Another question is: why he wanted to chose a passport whom background was similar to Saki's? Same city makes sense, but same age isn't really needed. Well the passport that says he's born in 1993 isn't really credible, then there's another with 1979. A fourteen years difference?! Uhm The other "Tokyo" passport states the date of birth in 1980, maybe that's why... but what's his real age? I guess it's something between 17 and 30 years. Quote:
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2009-05-03, 17:14 | Link #22 |
At the end of this world
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hungary, Europe
Age: 39
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Spoiler for Long post. My opinion with lots of flaws in it. Until the anime is going to convince me otherwise, I'm going to stubbornly stick with this beliefs, despite how they indeed sound quite stupid :
Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-05-03 at 17:36. |
2009-05-03, 18:42 | Link #24 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Yes he was probably a "paper boy" when he was contacted by mister Outsider.
@izmosmolnar: intresting theory and for the most part i think it is very probable, however episode2 Akira arrives in Japan and he receives a call from Juiz that says: "Number IX has entered seleçao's operation area. We will now begin following this cellphone holder's orders. From now on, if you need anything please, say so." This is quite clear. Unless Juiz is lying then seleçao can only use the money inside Japan. Maybe it's Outsider's police to prevent 120 billion yens to flood outside Japan XD EDIT: Hey guys i reconsidered what ghostfriendly said before and i think there's some merit in it. Here's what i got by refining that: I've always thought from the start that in the real world there's no way a mere sound can wipe someone's memories. But then i thought: hey it's an anime, in this kind of story it works. However let's just imagine that it really is impossible for such a ridiculous thing to exist. Then what was that sound? The only logical thing that i can think of is: post hypnosis command. In other words Akira was previously hypnotized. While in hypnosis he was told to forget anything related to the seleçao and anything related to his identity (they didn't tell to forget anything about movies and his knowledge of the world) but only after he heard a precise sound. Before that he was told to go in front of the white house undress himself and point a gun at the white house. At that point he answered to the phone call, the hypnosis ended and he had no memory of what happened. Of course it was the supporter who did all that. Why? Because Akira broke or was going to broke some rule. Why such a redundant way? Why not killing him on the spot? Because that's what the supporter do. Remember Kondo? It looks like the supporter prefer to use such elaborate ways to eliminate the fallen seleçao (although in the case of Hiura seemed to be a pretty straightforward execution). Anyway let's say that since it was a foreign country the supporter preferred to resolve the matter without causing any suspicion. "A crazy asian guys showed himself in front of the white house naked and holding a gun, he was shot down by the guards" = end of story: good bye number IX. Without any other element the case would have been close pretty quickly. In this perspective the Supporter followed Akira in front of the White House to make sure everything was proceeding as planned. Of course he didn't want to be near during the "incident", so he left a minute before. But something went wrong, something the supporter couldn't predict happened. Saki. Just imagine this: What if Saki wasn't there? What would have happened? In that case the guard would have never crossed the street and that mean Akira couldn't pull that trick that saved him. It looked like Akira was going to surrender but maybe not. Maybe the supporter was sure he was going to try and escape (in fact that's what he did). But without that trick such attempt would only led the guards to shoot him. So Saki was the classical person at the wrong time at the wrong place doing the wrong thing (or should i say right?). If this theory is true then a lot of things suddenly make sense. There are still a few questions left though: "What was Akira going to do before he was stopped?" With all those weapons he sure was planning something. BTW the theory also explain the obvious discrepancy between what he was planning and what he did. Another question is: why the supporter didn't try to kill him again after his previous plan failed? This might be explained by the fact Akira having his memories lost he's not doing what he was going to do before, so maybe the Supporter decided to watch him for now. Interesting fact: When Akira contacts Juiz the first time afte the mindwipe Juiz tells him: i thought that you "fade out". My japanese is very weak but i think she's actually saying "fade out" in engrish. Maybe "fade out" is another of her "code words" to say "dead"? And then she says: "but you are fine".
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2009-05-03 at 20:43. |
2009-05-03, 22:23 | Link #25 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Hmm, just saw the black and white replay, I guess he was a paperboy.
After reading the previous replies, maybe Saki did save him by being there, maybe he wanted to be arrested and that was his master plan for saving Japan, by incriminating himself with a mind wipe at the same time. But I'm still with my original idea until the story further advances and says otherwise - that he planned it this way so he could be forced to come back to Japan and maybe he had to be in the United States to get the mind wipe. |
2009-05-03, 22:24 | Link #26 | |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2. Yeah, he really did it. Then the guy from his little fascist group who was assigned to cut his head off failed, and another guy stepped forward to do it. They were apparently trying to get troops to mutiny and restore the power of the Emperor. Details here. He was really a great writer, whatever his politics. @izmosmolnar -- Thanks for the info about the passports. They may indeed have all been Japanese. I do think Juiz could have tracked Saki for #9. I'm not sure why they would have targeted Saki, though, if Micchon was the one they cared about. Saki apparently founded the club, but Micchon did the programming for their cellphone site, some of which programming was involved in the Noblesse system, I think I've read (but I don't remember where). By the way, for anyone who reads Japanese, there is a separate wiki that is gradually filling up with so much stuff I haven't read it all.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2009-05-03 at 22:42. |
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2009-05-04, 03:15 | Link #27 |
At the end of this world
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hungary, Europe
Age: 39
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Spoiler for some additional thoughts etc:
Spoiler for at Jan-Poo's theory:
By the way I just started to think, that "saving the country" might be related to the Ecosystem-danger, and Enviromentalism. Of course I'm nowhere close to an expert regarding that, but if I were to judge what's the biggest, most serious danger in present Japan (or a different country for that matter) is the exponentially growing danger, that the Ecosystem is falling apart and the lack of Enviromentalist movements to prevent that. I know it's not only related to Japan, but if I consider it as such way like "directing the country to the right direction" it kinda makes some sense. If he somehow arranged those 20000 NEETs to "hide" and help the ecosystem-protection in some way, it might explain why the Supporter was disappointed, when Akira goes against them, after all the promising deed Akira has done. Of course there are no proofs to support that in any possible way, but in my own opinion that's the most dire danger Japan might encounter nowadays. Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-05-04 at 04:44. |
2009-05-04, 05:38 | Link #28 | |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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Quote:
Like I said before i think the whole 'White House' being the centre of the world will have significance. I can't see 'Saving Japan' being a social/economical crisis in Japan. Surely 120 billion yen could solve that? However, Jan poo's theory about the supporter stopping #9 and Saki getting in the way is very convincing. But the Doc said to Akira that he thinks #9 wiped his memories because #9 trusted in whatever he would become after that. Maybe #9 had anticipated the supporter would try and wipe his memories and went along with it to make it seem as if the supporter had got him. Juiz did say afterwards that she thought he had been 'faded out'. But then that doesn't explain why the supporter hasn't already tried to kill him now. No, I don't think Saki knows what's going on really. Saki seemed depressed on the Taxi but that was probably because she was nervous. She is in a completely foreign place after all. I would be a little scared too. |
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2009-05-04, 14:58 | Link #29 |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Lots of interesting thoughts. I just wanted to say that I thought the Noblesse system worked in the US, since they were at least able to use it to trigger the memory-wipe program. What I thought was that like any cellphone (up to now), you just weren't allowed to use it when the plane was in the air. Or did I miss something?
I don't think 120 billion yen ($1.2 billion) could solve Japan's social/economic crises. The US is spending over a thousand times that just to get back to some minimal form of economic stability. Mr. Outside had a great idea: to give huge sums to unusual people to come up with inventive ways of leveraging the money.
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2009-05-04, 15:49 | Link #30 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I have noticed that the mind erase program was downloaded two days prior the arrival on Japan, while the older history (NEET related) is about two months older. It seems that the only thing it has been done while in America was downloading that program, but maybe since it was a download from Japan it was still valid since the money would end up there. EDIT: more speculation. I just noticed: why Kondo's phone make a sound when number IX makes a purchase? That's not something that normally happens. It would pretty annoying if it chimed everytime any seleçao issued an order to Juiz. Then i remembered there's another situation where the phone makes a similar sound, and that's when Hiura dies. Maybe Number IX really "fade out" as Juiz says. Maybe leaving the country automatically causes the number to fade out as if the seleçao was dead. But when number IX came back a similar sound announced to all the other seleçao that number IX was back. Kondo however didn't think that number IX came back to life. He thought that the phone was stolen and so he had the idea to get the phone for himself. Only later he found out the truth but at that point his mind was already set.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2009-05-04 at 16:18. |
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2009-05-04, 16:11 | Link #31 | |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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I wonder how Akira paid for those guns, etc., in DC. I guess he could have ordered them before he left Japan. There was also an item on his phone for deleting records. He could have deleted records prior to a certain date or between certain dates.
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2009-05-05, 02:02 | Link #33 |
At the end of this world
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hungary, Europe
Age: 39
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It's also possible he had money on his own. Even if he was a NEET before we can assume he did some odd jobs here and there like the flashback (that would be a freeter if I'm correct), so I can imagine he must have possessed some physical money too (money that he can change to USD-s).
But as I said, I believe even if he cannot fully use Juiz system in the US (I tend to believe they restrict Juiz's options outside Japan), he could arrange it in several way to gather over the top arsenal and other things. There's a significant 2 month as yous mentioned, it is more than enough time to collect significant money if he somehow made the disappeared NEETs to help him, but I reckon the most probable is to wire money to someone with influence in the US. If he can't do that to US citizens, he can certainly wire money to Japanese people, who could have some shady connections in the US. Among other things if he couldn't do that I cannot tell how did one of the selecaos arranged the (most probably foreign) missiles for the Careless Monday. Fair enough there's no evidence they done it, but until proven otherwise I reckon one of them was the perpetrator. As for the records, I cannot yet dismiss the possibility to delete records. Maybe the others didn't bothered by it yet, or with the exception of the brain surgeon they do it frequently and we can't see it. It's hard to tell now, I'm guessing with the exception of Supporter it's unlikely they can tamper the accounthistory. Regarding Kondo's alerts I don't really have any firm theory yet. It's probably possible to change the phone to notify when a certain selecao spend something, and it was a coincidence it's the same ringtone as the one we hear when the Doc dies. But that's a weak theory. Of course if the Detective guy is a guy with the usual traits of detectives, he certainly found it odd there's no activity in Akira's account, and if it's possible he would set his phone to notify him when no9 spends something, therefore he could determine wether Akira's phone is stolen. It's also possible the phones have the same ringtone for ANY notices. The same ringtone if a selecao spends when you set it in the options, and the same ringtone when one of them loses the signal by dieing (or returning into the operational area). IDK. edit His Johnny even makes black skinned people blush! It's certainly capable of miracles ! Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-05-05 at 10:03. Reason: >.< Typo |
2009-05-05, 02:36 | Link #34 |
Waiting for more taiyuki!
Join Date: Jan 2004
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How about this as a twisted scenario?
Since the "game" premise is about saving Japan using 10 billion yen, one of the other Selecao manufactured the current crisis with the intention of saving Japan from apathy and lack of national pride by stirring up anger at the US resulting in a resurgence of militarism and a new regime . The original scenario included the death of 20,000 NEET from a missile attack which was lessened when 9 interfered. The attack was suppose to be blamed on the US. 20,000 NEET were mindswiped instead and transported out of the area even though 9 also had some pent up anger about the NEET which came out during the hallucination sequence in ep. 4. With the first attack lessened, a second attack on Japan was undertaken but this one only resulted in one death IIRC. There is a third attacked planned but it hasn't happened yet. Saki's coin toss at the White House fountain was also part of the original scenario to stir up feelings of protest against the US. 9 was in the US attempting to track down the missile launch point and clues on whereabouts of the Selecao responsible. His research ended up at Eastern Eden. To gain access to Eastern Eden, he needed to make contact with Saki. His contact method included a temporary mindswipe to make her feel that she had to take care of him with instructions for Juiz to tell him where he lived at as his start point. He also deflected any ramifications of the coin toss by appearing nude with a gun outside of the White House. People would brush him off as being crazy if he was ever caught. Supporter (the guy in the car in ep 1) was sent after 9 when it was thought that he defected. Supporter is holding off killing him now as there are now 2 ways to save Japan, the original Selecao's version and 9's prevention of the original scenario.
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Last edited by orion; 2009-05-05 at 03:08. |
2009-05-05, 12:17 | Link #35 | |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2. I believe the selecao system worked in America, because of the following entry in #9's accounts: 2011/02/12/Sat/02:00 過去の履歴 全消去 ("erase history") ¥40 ¥8,262,308,619 That would be early morning Saturday (Tokyo time or DC time?), when #9 was presumably in that apartment in DC. The next entry is Monday afternoon in Tokyo with Saki. The previous entry was: 不明 ("unknown") ¥432,453,557 That appears to be a gap created by #9 by erasing the history. All expenses between 11 Dec and 12 Feb were erased, although the total wasn't. The last December expenses were the shopping mall, films, and bentos. There could conceivably be a difference between expenses within the system (activating the mindwipe program on #9's phone, erasing the history) and payments to outside people. But it's hard to see why the system wouldn't have access to credit outside Japan.
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2009-05-05, 12:28 | Link #36 |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Sorry to double post, but this is just reference material. Here is a partial chronology from the wiki:
2010/11/22 Careless Monday. Ten missiles strike Tokyo. 2010/12/10 #9 buys mall 2010/12/10 #9 buys bentos for 20,000 for delivery 2010/12/11 #9 buys films 2011/2/12 #9 downloads mindwipe program 2011/2/12 11th missile strikes Harumi (晴海, a place in Tokyo) 2011/2/12~14 barrage of 19 e-mails from Oosugi to Saki 2011/2/14 ep2. #9 and Saki debark from ferry 2911/02/15 after 06:30h #4 dies
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2009-05-05, 14:07 | Link #37 |
At the end of this world
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Hungary, Europe
Age: 39
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Well I also presented 2 other possible, not too far-fetched, at the moment not yet rebukable way to obtain the weaponry he had in DC.
However if he can use Juiz in the US, obviously he can also gather the stuff by her help and erase the history about it. ---- I'm sorry I may have misinterpreted that, but I don't seem to fully understand the above (I apologize, I can't read Japanese). Is the Erase History and Mindwhipe program the same thing, or the Erase history is regarding the account history/purchases in the phone? So did he really delete 2 months worth of purchase history for 40 Yen, just before he got blamed by/purchased the mindwhipe program? (ergo a bit before going to the White House). Or the cost of the mindwhipe program is not even on his account at all? I had the impression, the cost of the memory whipe was on the phone, I'm a bit perplexed now. Did he do that to leave some clues for himself and the memory whipe was indeed intentional (or calculated at the very least)? Why delete it only for 2 months? Is that the maximum limit they can temper the account-history? And to be honest, if they can delete their own history why don't the brain surgeon guy does it? It seemed to me he wasn't pleased by Akira's sudden appearance at first. I'm not saying he was in panic, but he was definitely not happy to hear one of the selecaos found him (I don't want to die while I still have money left or something). He could have avoided that, if he does the same as no9 and "sweep his records under the carpet". Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-05-05 at 14:23. |
2009-05-05, 15:07 | Link #38 |
I like guavas.
Join Date: May 2009
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I'm loving this series so far, and if I had any will power, I would wait until the whole thing's completed and marathon it because this series seems like it should be watched in that way.
But alas, I don't have any will power. :O The animation is very Honey and Clover-ish, right down to the ED with the apple and the origami. I can't wait for them to spend more time together, and for her to get pulled into the game! |
2009-05-05, 16:39 | Link #39 | |
Yuuki Aoi
Join Date: Jul 2004
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That's on this page of the wiki, along with the cellphone records of #4 and #5. I don't think it's explicitly stated in the script that he wiped his own memory (one sub at least makes that implication for us), but he did download the program. Or at least it was charged to his phone. The line about "erase history" says something like "completely erase previous history," and yet it only goes back two months. I'm not sure if that "completely erase previous" should be taken literally or not. At the moment it seems to me that he gathered the NEETs and provided food and movies for them in December, then did other unknown things including going to DC, all of which cost Y432 million ($4,320,000) in total. Then on Saturday 12 February he erased his cellphone history back as far as buying the films and the meals, downloaded the mindwipe program, had his mind wiped (voluntarily or not) and met Saki. On Monday afternoon, he and Saki arrived back in Tokyo.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2009-05-05 at 16:59. |
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2009-05-05, 17:02 | Link #40 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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This however brings up a very important question. What's the point on erasing the history?
Think about it. All seleçao receive a real time update of any transaction done by other seleçao. So why exactly Akira bothered removing any order made while in America? The only ones that actually can get swayed by that move are... us! All the other seleçao could have noticed a 2 months long activity in the states. Then this still doesn't explain why both Kondo and Juiz herself thought that number IX was dead. A long time of inactivity is still the best theory imho and the erased history probably only refers to a very recent order that was removed right away. Now i don't know how Akira found the money, but there's plenty of possibilities. I just name one. We have seen 20.000 mobile phones... what about the 20.000 wallets?
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