AnimeSuki Forums

Bern-san · 2009-11-04, 16:02

maybe battler killed indirectly asumu, he didn't want to but happened because he did something that led to it and because of the trauma of he thinking that he was guilty he just forgot it
what he did to asumu die i don't know^^'

Ithekro · 2009-11-04, 16:06

Gravity can be a wonderful aid to murder.....

Though the statement suggests that Battler didn't commit the sin, but through his action or inaction, caused the sin, and this the reason people die.

If Asumu lived, she would have been on the island....and Kyrie would not...Ange still might have been born. What changes here aside from Battler returning to the island each year instead of missing the conference for six years? Kyrie.

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However, why would there be two Kanon's? I could see the Jedi Truth theory behind Kanon's death in two episodes, and unless he is pulled the same stunt in Ep3, Kanon...and his real self, are dead in one of those six closed rooms (well five closed rooms...discounting Kinzo's body in the boiler room).

Basically twins would be a hard one to pull out at this point. Even in Higurashi, when the twins plot came in, it was stated more or less at the start when we meet Shion. Though it is entirely possible we encountered her eariler, there is no need for the switching of Mion and Shion until that point. (even though K1 doesn't believe in this Shion twin for a day or so, still thinking it is Mion.)

Marion · 2009-11-04, 16:27

The sin doesn't have to do with Battler's immediate family though. Unless you don't count Asumu into that, because she isn't his blood mother, but she still is his mother by relationship.

Ithekro · 2009-11-04, 16:32

Could the sin be towards Kyrie's family?

Marion · 2009-11-04, 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Could the sin be towards Kyrie's family?

It can be. Why would it be? Battler has nothing to do with her family - I don't even think he knows about them

Ithekro · 2009-11-04, 16:51

A snub to a family could be a big thing to that family. Kyrie's family looks like it has...connections. Families with connection can get revenge if they feel like paying for it.

Marion · 2009-11-04, 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

A snub to a family could be a big thing to that family. Kyrie's family looks like it has...connections. Families with connection can get revenge if they feel like paying for it.

Kyrie was pretty distant from the Sumadera family to begin with. She only communicated with her father for the most part and I'm sure she avoided them as much as possible.

Smeckledorf · 2009-11-04, 18:57

I think his sin could be killing the other Battler. I often wondered about Kyrie's story about her 'miscarriage' in ep 3 and thought maybe she gave birth to battler especially after seeing the similarities in him and Ange.

Another possible theory, the Kinzo passing his name on crap sounds like BS that Beatrice just let Battler get away with so he couldn't figure out the truth, whatever that might be. So, I think that Beatrice lived more than once because Kinzo cloned her and if he cloned her then why not himself? I think Battler could be Kinzo's clone. I don't look around often for other theories so sorry if someone else had a similar thought process.

Ithekro · 2009-11-04, 19:06

Since cloning of humans does not exist yet, and cloning of any mammal wasn't done until much more recently (remember Dolly the sheep?..1996 or so)...I'd discount cloning as being an answer. (There is a case of a Soviet cloned mouse in 1986, but that information wasn't released until 1987)

Smeckledorf · 2009-11-04, 19:09

You have no scientific proof of cloning being possible before hand. However, think of what Virgilia said in episode 2 about science and magic. With Beatrice's red truths about Kinzo in world 4, I doubt someone took his name. I mean we found out she purposely did not dispute quite a bit of Battler's wrong claims and I don't know if it is me but Battler's solution for Kinzo being recognized seemed quite off.

Ithekro · 2009-11-04, 19:23

We know what is involved to make clones, since science has gotten that far, to the point were one could clone a human as of 2008, but did not go through with the experiment on ethical grounds. Based on what is needed, verses what is avalible...no, not happening.

Mainly because in order for there to be a clone Beatrice or himself, and to be the age they are represented as (if Battler was a clone of Kinzo, or Beatrice was a clone of the one that died in 1967), they would have had to have been cloned in the late 1960s.

Cloning does not produce an exact replica at the same age as the donor...it produces an exact copy that will need to be born again and age again normally. Thus if Battler is a Kinzo clone...cloning would have had to have been around since 1967 for clone Kinzo to be born on the middle of 1968.

As I said...not happening.

Smeckledorf · 2009-11-04, 19:54

Yea, I forgot and the technology to stop time was invented in 1998... This is an anime we are talking about and if you want to take things in a sense of possiblity in the world of 1986 why not explain a few tons of 99.99% pure gold? Nonetheless 10.
That being said, I never said Battler would have been cloned in 1967 or 1968, I proposed he would have been cloned. Probably with the timing to match the birth of another child as not to raise suspicion.

Ithekro · 2009-11-04, 20:26

Magic world and Real world.

The events of October 4th and 5th, 1986 need to be explainable in real world terms. And while sufficiently advanced technology can seem like magic, the truth should not be based on something that cannot be done in science for the time period.

Having Battler be Kyrie's baby can make sense if her "stillborn" child actually lived and was given to Asumu. Alternately having two "Battler's" works if both children survived. The red gets confused around who Battler's mother is. It doesn't go into anything about his father, though for him to be Kinzo's grandson, Rudolf should be his father. Also there is no reason to question who is father is really. Who's Battler's mother on the other hand seems to be an issue, especially with Ange in the game.

As for the gold. There are many options ranging from Kinzo being a collaborator with the United States during the Second World War (or just the occupation, since rebuilding Japan and helping the US Army could make one rich as an industrialist), to looting the bank after the 1923 earthquake. Having them marked with the One Wing is interesting though. Though are they all marked that way, or just a few of them?

It is said it was Beatrice's gold. That could mean many things aside from just being a story to hide the truth. It could be the name of a ship that sank that hand the gold on it. It could have been a weathy woman who did have that gold. Besides, its just over 800 bars of gold.

Smeckledorf · 2009-11-04, 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The events of October 4th and 5th, 1986 need to be explainable in real world terms. And while sufficiently advanced technology can seem like magic, the truth should not be based on something that cannot be done in science for the time period.

I believe they only need to be explained with as source other than magic. Anyways, where is your basis saying the truth should not be based on something that has not been PROVEN to have been done in that time period. I still don't think you remember this is a novel and an anime we are talking about here.

Let me remind you that this Battler was not confirmed to be Rudolph's son or Kinzo's grandson. If you read all the red truths you get that at least one Battler was Kinzo's grandson and that the Battler in the game was not born of Asumu.

There are no red truths that disclaim cloning. You are not going to convince me that this anime will restrict its truth to our world because I do not recall an insanely wealthy Ushiromiya family that all died on an island.

Ithekro · 2009-11-04, 20:59

I can't convince you in this thread. This I know. Elsewhere maybe.....

Marion · 2009-11-04, 21:14

Cloning. Are you serious. This is like one of the crazy blue theories Battler should have made in the EP 4 battle between him and Beato.

Human cloning isn't even possible to this day and it's almost 2010. We're talking roughly 24 years in the past and if you're saying cloning was possible before that then it's almost twice that amount.

Anime or VN Umineko going through a cloning route is just ridiculous.

Smeckledorf · 2009-11-04, 21:17

hahaha that is good. No seriously, this post isn't out of spite.

Anyways, it may turn out I am wrong I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to clone things... I am just saying that where Battler is right now, the proof of cloning is a devil's proof. That being said, I will admit that this theory of mine is unlikely but... so is obtaining tons of gold out of the blue.

Since this story is fictional I still maintain that pointing out the unverifiable 'facts' of this world should not be applied. I know, I know a fact is something that can be verified. Two people can say that cloning technology was invented on a certain day but it is not verifiable to prove that it was not. My point being simply that you would have to get the signature of every human on this planet for oh let's say since 1950ish to prove your point.

Edit: I agree the cloning route is ridiculous. But how is the hey I just found multiple tons of gold route NOT ridiculous? How is the we are just gonna let the whole Beatrice time freeze thing while trying deny the existence of magic NOT ridiculous? Surely if you are looking for ridiculous you should have pointed out a few things already shown in the VN.

Surely, you are not going to say you believe the Kinzo passing on his name to satisfy the red truth constraints put on Battler are you? To me it seems as if she did not want to say why that was wrong. Again she did not disprove almost all the other blue that was wrong.

Kaiba · 2009-11-04, 21:23

Quote:

Two people can say that cloning technology was invented on a certain day but it is not verifiable to prove that it was not. My point being simply that you would have to get the signature of every human on this planet for oh let's say since 1950ish to prove your point.

That is to put it mildly patently ridiculous (as under this logic, if there was one human who was convinced the Towers fell on September 10th, then you can't prove they fell on September 11th) and it would be absolutely awful writing on the part of Ryukishi. Cloning simply didn't exist either in 1986 or 1967, and Ryukishi putting that in would frankly just be retarded.

Marion · 2009-11-04, 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

hahaha that is good. No seriously, this post isn't out of spite.

Anyways, it may turn out I am wrong I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to clone things... I am just saying that where Battler is right now, the proof of cloning is a devil's proof. That being said, I will admit that this theory of mine is unlikely but... so is obtaining tons of gold out of the blue.

Since this story is fictional I still maintain that pointing out the unverifiable 'facts' of this world should not be applied. I know, I know a fact is something that can be verified. Two people can say that cloning technology was invented on a certain day but it is not verifiable to prove that it was not. My point being simply that you would have to get the signature of every human on this planet for oh let's say since 1950ish to prove your point.

Umineko does follow the world timeline though. The Kanto Earthquake that killed all the Ushiromiya family, but Kinzo, was a real event. Economic downturn did occur in Japan during the 80's, which is why the family members are suffering so much financially. The game mentions 'the war' several times, which refers to 'World War II'.

Honestly, if something silly like 'cloning' is the solution then I might drop Umineko. It doesn't make for a good mystery. Science-fiction sure, but Umineko isn't a sci-fi story.

Smeckledorf · 2009-11-04, 21:37

I agree, it does follow a time line close to that of our world but it does not exactly follow our world. I never said cloning is "the solution" I said that is not yet ruled out as a possibility.

Again, your point is something didn't exist in our world around 1986/87, as I recall there weren't a lot of 99.99% pure gold ingots back in that day and age and certainly not as much as Kinzo claimed to have.

Kaiba, I was using the definition of a fact. A fact is something that can be verified. If I showed you that all of Japan was just erased off the face of the Earth using really nice special effects on a video would you believe me, probably not. If I got 50 people to tell you that happened would you believe me, probably not. You obviously know nothing of how scientific facts work or else you would know how flimsy the word fact is.

2009-11-04, 16:02	Link #4021
Bern-san Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009	maybe battler killed indirectly asumu, he didn't want to but happened because he did something that led to it and because of the trauma of he thinking that he was guilty he just forgot it what he did to asumu die i don't know^^' __________________

2009-11-04, 16:06	Link #4022
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Gravity can be a wonderful aid to murder..... Though the statement suggests that Battler didn't commit the sin, but through his action or inaction, caused the sin, and this the reason people die. If Asumu lived, she would have been on the island....and Kyrie would not...Ange still might have been born. What changes here aside from Battler returning to the island each year instead of missing the conference for six years? Kyrie. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- However, why would there be two Kanon's? I could see the Jedi Truth theory behind Kanon's death in two episodes, and unless he is pulled the same stunt in Ep3, Kanon...and his real self, are dead in one of those six closed rooms (well five closed rooms...discounting Kinzo's body in the boiler room). Basically twins would be a hard one to pull out at this point. Even in Higurashi, when the twins plot came in, it was stated more or less at the start when we meet Shion. Though it is entirely possible we encountered her eariler, there is no need for the switching of Mion and Shion until that point. (even though K1 doesn't believe in this Shion twin for a day or so, still thinking it is Mion.) __________________

2009-11-04, 16:32	Link #4024
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Could the sin be towards Kyrie's family? __________________

2009-11-04, 16:51	Link #4026
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	A snub to a family could be a big thing to that family. Kyrie's family looks like it has...connections. Families with connection can get revenge if they feel like paying for it. __________________

2009-11-04, 19:06	Link #4029
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Since cloning of humans does not exist yet, and cloning of any mammal wasn't done until much more recently (remember Dolly the sheep?..1996 or so)...I'd discount cloning as being an answer. (There is a case of a Soviet cloned mouse in 1986, but that information wasn't released until 1987) __________________

2009-11-04, 16:27	Link #4023
Marion The Great Dine Join Date: Feb 2009	The sin doesn't have to do with Battler's immediate family though. Unless you don't count Asumu into that, because she isn't his blood mother, but she still is his mother by relationship.

2009-11-04, 18:57	Link #4028
Smeckledorf Intellectual Rapist Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: 3 12151805142615	I think his sin could be killing the other Battler. I often wondered about Kyrie's story about her 'miscarriage' in ep 3 and thought maybe she gave birth to battler especially after seeing the similarities in him and Ange. Another possible theory, the Kinzo passing his name on crap sounds like BS that Beatrice just let Battler get away with so he couldn't figure out the truth, whatever that might be. So, I think that Beatrice lived more than once because Kinzo cloned her and if he cloned her then why not himself? I think Battler could be Kinzo's clone. I don't look around often for other theories so sorry if someone else had a similar thought process.

2009-11-04, 19:09	Link #4030
Smeckledorf Intellectual Rapist Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: 3 12151805142615	You have no scientific proof of cloning being possible before hand. However, think of what Virgilia said in episode 2 about science and magic. With Beatrice's red truths about Kinzo in world 4, I doubt someone took his name. I mean we found out she purposely did not dispute quite a bit of Battler's wrong claims and I don't know if it is me but Battler's solution for Kinzo being recognized seemed quite off.

2009-11-04, 19:23	Link #4031
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	We know what is involved to make clones, since science has gotten that far, to the point were one could clone a human as of 2008, but did not go through with the experiment on ethical grounds. Based on what is needed, verses what is avalible...no, not happening. Mainly because in order for there to be a clone Beatrice or himself, and to be the age they are represented as (if Battler was a clone of Kinzo, or Beatrice was a clone of the one that died in 1967), they would have had to have been cloned in the late 1960s. Cloning does not produce an exact replica at the same age as the donor...it produces an exact copy that will need to be born again and age again normally. Thus if Battler is a Kinzo clone...cloning would have had to have been around since 1967 for clone Kinzo to be born on the middle of 1968. As I said...not happening. __________________

2009-11-04, 19:54	Link #4032
Smeckledorf Intellectual Rapist Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: 3 12151805142615	Yea, I forgot and the technology to stop time was invented in 1998... This is an anime we are talking about and if you want to take things in a sense of possiblity in the world of 1986 why not explain a few tons of 99.99% pure gold? Nonetheless 10. That being said, I never said Battler would have been cloned in 1967 or 1968, I proposed he would have been cloned. Probably with the timing to match the birth of another child as not to raise suspicion.

2009-11-04, 20:26	Link #4033
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	Magic world and Real world. The events of October 4th and 5th, 1986 need to be explainable in real world terms. And while sufficiently advanced technology can seem like magic, the truth should not be based on something that cannot be done in science for the time period. Having Battler be Kyrie's baby can make sense if her "stillborn" child actually lived and was given to Asumu. Alternately having two "Battler's" works if both children survived. The red gets confused around who Battler's mother is. It doesn't go into anything about his father, though for him to be Kinzo's grandson, Rudolf should be his father. Also there is no reason to question who is father is really. Who's Battler's mother on the other hand seems to be an issue, especially with Ange in the game. As for the gold. There are many options ranging from Kinzo being a collaborator with the United States during the Second World War (or just the occupation, since rebuilding Japan and helping the US Army could make one rich as an industrialist), to looting the bank after the 1923 earthquake. Having them marked with the One Wing is interesting though. Though are they all marked that way, or just a few of them? It is said it was Beatrice's gold. That could mean many things aside from just being a story to hide the truth. It could be the name of a ship that sank that hand the gold on it. It could have been a weathy woman who did have that gold. Besides, its just over 800 bars of gold. __________________

2009-11-04, 20:59	Link #4035
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	I can't convince you in this thread. This I know. Elsewhere maybe..... __________________

2009-11-04, 21:14	Link #4036
Marion The Great Dine Join Date: Feb 2009	Cloning. Are you serious. This is like one of the crazy blue theories Battler should have made in the EP 4 battle between him and Beato. Human cloning isn't even possible to this day and it's almost 2010. We're talking roughly 24 years in the past and if you're saying cloning was possible before that then it's almost twice that amount. Anime or VN Umineko going through a cloning route is just ridiculous.

2009-11-04, 21:17	Link #4037
Smeckledorf Intellectual Rapist Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: 3 12151805142615	hahaha that is good. No seriously, this post isn't out of spite. Anyways, it may turn out I am wrong I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to clone things... I am just saying that where Battler is right now, the proof of cloning is a devil's proof. That being said, I will admit that this theory of mine is unlikely but... so is obtaining tons of gold out of the blue. Since this story is fictional I still maintain that pointing out the unverifiable 'facts' of this world should not be applied. I know, I know a fact is something that can be verified. Two people can say that cloning technology was invented on a certain day but it is not verifiable to prove that it was not. My point being simply that you would have to get the signature of every human on this planet for oh let's say since 1950ish to prove your point. Edit: I agree the cloning route is ridiculous. But how is the hey I just found multiple tons of gold route NOT ridiculous? How is the we are just gonna let the whole Beatrice time freeze thing while trying deny the existence of magic NOT ridiculous? Surely if you are looking for ridiculous you should have pointed out a few things already shown in the VN. Surely, you are not going to say you believe the Kinzo passing on his name to satisfy the red truth constraints put on Battler are you? To me it seems as if she did not want to say why that was wrong. Again she did not disprove almost all the other blue that was wrong.

2009-11-04, 21:37	Link #4040
Smeckledorf Intellectual Rapist Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: 3 12151805142615	I agree, it does follow a time line close to that of our world but it does not exactly follow our world. I never said cloning is "the solution" I said that is not yet ruled out as a possibility. Again, your point is something didn't exist in our world around 1986/87, as I recall there weren't a lot of 99.99% pure gold ingots back in that day and age and certainly not as much as Kinzo claimed to have. Kaiba, I was using the definition of a fact. A fact is something that can be verified. If I showed you that all of Japan was just erased off the face of the Earth using really nice special effects on a video would you believe me, probably not. If I got 50 people to tell you that happened would you believe me, probably not. You obviously know nothing of how scientific facts work or else you would know how flimsy the word fact is.