[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Higurashi-Z]

I really liked that idea. And in Erika's dress there is a golden eagle

Spoiler for picture:

It doesn't make sense to erika who doesn't have anything to do with the Ushiromiya family to use the golden eagle. The fact that she is marrying Battler is irrelevant as even Natsuhi doesn't have that right. And in episode 6 she didn't resolve the epitaph.

And if you think about it you can even make a link between erika's past and ange. In the case of Beatrice her link with Ronove and Virgilia is the same as Yasu with Genji and Kumasawa. While Erika and her boyfriend are similar to Ange and Eva. In the confront between Erika and Dlanor, Erika showed a lot of proofs that her boyfriend didn't love her as probably there was many things for Ange to think that Eva didn't love her. But Dlanor said that even so there was some hints that could prove it but she just choose to don't believe in that, in the same way as ange who coudn't believe in Eva's love for her. And because of the fact that the two of them were "betrayed" they became disproved of love.

You can think about this same thing but in the place of Eva's love for Ange you interpret as the Eva culprit theory, in the way that there was many things to prove that eva was the culprit but every thing that could prove Eva's innocence ange ignored.

[AuraTwilight]

It doesn't make sense to erika who doesn't have anything to do with the Ushiromiya family to use the golden eagle. The fact that she is marrying Battler is irrelevant as even Natsuhi doesn't have that right. And in episode 6 she didn't resolve the epitaph.

You're neglecting that the crest has meta-world magical meaning that doesn't correspond to how it's used in in the 'real world'.

Namely, that it's usable by Beatrice and anyone associated with her. She can also be using it because she's effectively deeming to continue the circular, looping tragedy (the one winged eagle can only fly in a circle) for all time.

Aaaand she's a Mary Sue.

[Andor-sama]

Originally Posted by Higurashi-Z

I really liked that idea. And in Erika's dress there is a golden eagle

Spoiler for picture:

It doesn't make sense to erika who doesn't have anything to do with the Ushiromiya family to use the golden eagle. The fact that she is marrying Battler is irrelevant as even Natsuhi doesn't have that right. And in episode 6 she didn't resolve the epitaph.

And if you think about it you can even make a link between erika's past and ange. In the case of Beatrice her link with Ronove and Virgilia is the same as Yasu with Genji and Kumasawa. While Erika and her boyfriend are similar to Ange and Eva. In the confront between Erika and Dlanor, Erika showed a lot of proofs that her boyfriend didn't love her as probably there was many things for Ange to think that Eva didn't love her. But Dlanor said that even so there was some hints that could prove it but she just choose to don't believe in that, in the same way as ange who coudn't believe in Eva's love for her. And because of the fact that the two of them were "betrayed" they became disproved of love.

You can think about this same thing but in the place of Eva's love for Ange you interpret as the Eva culprit theory, in the way that there was many things to prove that eva was the culprit but every thing that could prove Eva's innocence ange ignored.

Wow, that interpretation of Erika's boyfriend is rather fascinating. Tbh I have almost forgotten that scene...

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You're neglecting that the crest has meta-world magical meaning that doesn't correspond to how it's used in in the 'real world'.

Namely, that it's usable by Beatrice and anyone associated with her. She can also be using it because she's effectively deeming to continue the circular, looping tragedy (the one winged eagle can only fly in a circle) for all time.

Aaaand she's a Mary Sue.

Actually according to EP7 Beatrice is the head of the family when the murders take place thus she and all of her underlings having the crest isn't strange at all.

[AuraTwilight]

That's...not what I meant. I'm saying that in the fantasy/meta-world narrative the crest has ADDITIONAL meanings ontop of what it has in the world of humans. That's why characters who don't have Ushiromiya family ties in their fantasy mythos are able to wear it without it being a plot hole for Beatrice's magical narrative.

[Andor-sama]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

That's...not what I meant. I'm saying that in the fantasy/meta-world narrative the crest has ADDITIONAL meanings ontop of what it has in the world of humans. That's why characters who don't have Ushiromiya family ties in their fantasy mythos are able to wear it without it being a plot hole for Beatrice's magical narrative.

I completely understand what you are saying but there are no characters who don't have Ushiromiya family ties in their fantasy mythos and wear the crest excluding Erika.
On the chessboard only the family members and the trusted servants have the crest (Shannon and Kanon are arguable, but Genji definitely counts as servant). On the magical plane only Beatrice herself, the actual head of the family who also has to be one of the real family members and HER trusted servants have the crest, like siestas and the seven sisters of purgatory. Of course family members who appear in the meta world also wear the crest. It's only that the perspective is different in the meta world because Beatrice's servants are also servants of the family.
On the other hand if this was the case there are a few characters that should wear the crest, like Gaap, EVA-Beatrice but they dont...

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Higurashi-Z

It doesn't make sense to erika who doesn't have anything to do with the Ushiromiya family to use the golden eagle. The fact that she is marrying Battler is irrelevant as even Natsuhi doesn't have that right.

I'd argue that the comparison to Natsuhi there actually doesn't work. Erika was marrying Battler in order to become the territory lord of Rokkenjima and to take the one-winged-eagle territory ring into her possession. Had the wedding succeeded she would have been officially the most one-winged-eagle-y person there.

"Ooh... ......I see. ......You're saying you'll make it so that Erika inherits all of this game board's territory."

"That's right. ......Look at Battler's finger. ......He's wearing the ring of the One-winged Eagle, symbol of the territory lord. If that becomes yours, you'll become the official lord of this territory. ......I don't mean you'll be under my charge. ......In name and reality, this territory will be yours."

"So I need to take that ring off Battler's finger...?"

"......*giggle* Don't be stupid. ......There's only one ceremony where a woman gets a ring from a man's finger, right?"

"Erika. ......Take Battler as your husband and become the wife of the territory lord."
"T...take Battler......as my......?!"

"Yeah, that's right. ......If the territory lord is never to wake again, he'll need a partner to serve by his side and in his place. ......In other words, you will control this territory."

"So, we'll hold a wedding and exchange the rings. ......Battler's territory lord ring will become yours..."

"In exchange, you will put a ring of subordination on Battler's finger. ......You will control and humiliate him forever......and create as many tales however you like using this territory and game board."

"Territory lord, Furudo Erika. ......Any tale you wish will come true. ......The territory lord is a god. ...Congratulations, you've become the god of this small but wonderful world."

"......Ha......hahahahaha...hahahahahahahahahahaha hahaha... Is that...true...my...master...?!! Will I...become this world's...god...?"

At this rate, ......Battler's position as Game Master and his territory lord's ring will be stolen away...

......The territory lord's ring with the One-winged Eagle engraved on it that sat on Battler's finger...would become Erika's.
By this, she would become the ruler of this game board...

And in exchange, ......Battler's finger would be given a diamond ring that Erika had prepared.
......At a glance, it just looked like a ring adorned by a large diamond.

......However, this cursed ring would force Battler into eternal subservience and mark him as another's property......

"Yes, let the pair exchange rings...!!"
"......Since the husband's fingers cannot move, let his wife support him...!"
Erika respectfully took Battler's right hand......then slowly pulled off the territory lord's ring that had sat on his ring finger......

That was the ring Beato had entrusted him with. ......Erika...stole it away.

It's not a perfect analogy in any case because Natsuhi wasn't marrying the territory lord on the meta-level, but marrying the apparent family heir in reality. Anyway. When Natsuhi married into the Ushiromiya family, she wasn't becoming the head of the family by doing so and neither was she making Krauss her official subordinate, whereas Erika was via the ceremony to become the territory lord and have Battler as her eternal slave, etcetera.

I'd say there's a good argument to be made there that Erika simply had the one winged eagle on her wedding clothes because she believed by the end of the ceremony that she would be the official lord and master of Rokkenjima. Of course, that doesn't exclude the theories of connections between Ange and Erika in any case.

[AuraTwilight]

I completely understand what you are saying but there are no characters who don't have Ushiromiya family ties in their fantasy mythos and wear the crest excluding Erika.

Except the Stakes and Virgilia, whose real world counterparts apparently doesn't have permission to wear it.

On the chessboard only the family members and the trusted servants have the crest (Shannon and Kanon are arguable, but Genji definitely counts as servant). On the magical plane only Beatrice herself, the actual head of the family who also has to be one of the real family members and HER trusted servants have the crest, like siestas and the seven sisters of purgatory. Of course family members who appear in the meta world also wear the crest. It's only that the perspective is different in the meta world because Beatrice's servants are also servants of the family.

The Chiesters don't even belong to Beatrice. They work against her half the time.

[Higurashi-Z]

Except the Stakes and Virgilia, whose real world counterparts apparently doesn't have permission to wear it.

We are not talking about the human counterpart. I think that in the human world they need to have some kind of connection with Kinzo, being furnitures or the members of the Ushiromiya family. While in the meta-world that connection is with Beato. Yasu hated the other servants but she still wanted to be acknowledged by them, so when she made the stakes they had the "setting" of being really loyal to her. The stakes are clearly funituries of Beato in the same way as genji is kinzo's, so they need to have the crest. For Virgilia is the same, her "setting" is as Beatrice's master and an "ex-beatrice". It woudn't make sense for someone with this setting to don't use the golden eagle.

The Chiesters don't even belong to Beatrice. They work against her half the time.

So why are they using the crest? It's not like any character summoned by the family members have the crest. Take Gaap for example,she was summoned by kinzo at the same time as Chiester 00, but the chiester have a crest while Gaap doesn't. She only said that she was Beato's friend(not a furniture). And in her "new setting" that Yasu made after becoming beatrice Gaap didn't had the title. It was like she never had the name Beatrice. Gaap and beato are similar to Kinzo and nanjo for example. Nanjo knows everything and is trusted by kinzo but he's not a furniture nor a family member so he can't use the crest. For me at least the chiesters were made as mariage sorciere furniture. You need to remember that in ep 3 is dubious if they were really against beato as more of that was an acting of beato as could the chiesters be going according to the plan. And the only other time that they were against beato was in the final part of ep 6 during the wedding but that time they were following Erika's order(who as we are saying have a link with ange). It would make sense for Erika to order the chiesters group during that part of the story. And if you see during the fight at the final of ep 5 battler summoned all the other characters except the chiesters. It could be because they woudnt fight against a member of the mariage sorciere.

I'd argue that the comparison to Natsuhi there actually doesn't work. Erika was marrying Battler in order to become the territory lord of Rokkenjima and to take the one-winged-eagle territory ring into her possession. Had the wedding succeeded she would have been officially the most one-winged-eagle-y person there.

I forgot about the ring in that scene... Still I don't think that being a territory lord has anything to do with the crest... In Ep 5 Erika became the territory lord for a while and she received an scyth as the symbol but it wasn't similar to the eagle. I think that if a territory lord would use the crest she should had received something to show that...

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Higurashi-Z

I forgot about the ring in that scene... Still I don't think that being a territory lord has anything to do with the crest... In Ep 5 Erika became the territory lord for a while and she received an scyth as the symbol but it wasn't similar to the eagle. I think that if a territory lord would use the crest she should had received something to show that...

I can't find that part of the game. Checking ep 5 just now, Erika manifested the scythe only after Battler was established as the official territory lord, revoking whatever temporary status she had, and nothing was said about the scythe being a symbol of the territory lord's power. I don't believe it has anything to do with the territory lordship.

The one-winged eagle is explicitly connected to the territory lordship in the text. I'm sure it's not limited to holding that single meaning, and indeed we know it's not limited to that, but I don't think we can successfully contradict one that was laid out so clearly.

......Look at Battler's finger. ......He's wearing the ring of the One-winged Eagle, symbol of the territory lord. If that becomes yours, you'll become the official lord of this territory. ......I don't mean you'll be under my charge. ......In name and reality, this territory will be yours."

[AuraTwilight]

So why are they using the crest?

Because in the Fantasy narrative it has an additional meaning beyond "Belonging to the master of Rokkenjima."

[Renall]

My primary objection to the Erika/Ange thing (besides the fact that they interact with each other in a completely different way from Shannon/Kanon/Beatrice, who are aspects of the same person) is that it doesn't seem to work on a number of thematic and characterization levels:

• Ange feels bad about hurting Maria. Erika feels pleasure from hurting Maria. And it's not like Ange would harbor a belief that Maria got what she had coming; or at least, we never really see that. Arguing "well Erika represents that belief!" is roundabout begging the question.
• Erika is a devoted slave of Bernkastel and seeks at every turn to please her. Bern is generally benign or at least tolerant of Erika's antics as long as she isn't disappointing or boring. Ange is approached by Bern as someone striking a bargain and is treated as a sort of partner at first, and then later Bern begins acting actively antagonistic toward Ange without any particular provocation on Ange's part.
• Bern sees Ange's suffering as an important thing, something that lets her get back at Battler and Beatrice and an audience that will react to how she twists the story of 1986. When Bern causes suffering or pain to Erika, she seems to think almost nothing of it. She doesn't even give a shit when Erika is banished to oblivion.
• Erika's discussion of being a Witch of Truth suggests that she already is one and that Ange could become one, and that the circumstances of how they would reach that point are different. This doesn't make a lot of sense if Erika is merely symbolic of an aspect Ange already has.
• Amakusa warns Ange about living for revenge, which seems to be something Ange thinks of as driving her. Erika does not appear to be motivated by revenge in her backstory; she became a Witch of Truth to put assurance into uncertainty, not out of a desire for revenge. What she did to her boyfriend isn't revenge exactly, but Ange trying to "prove" Eva is the culprit is definitely vengeful in a markedly different manner.
• Arguing the ep6 interpretation about Ange's possessiveness of Battler just doesn't work with the way Erika's own possessiveness is portrayed. Erika is seeking domination and power and vindication from Bern and has dispensed with any desire to actually find the truth (to the point that she's creating a ludicrous outcome that couldn't possibly be real). I'm not sure there's any evidence that Ange's love for her brother reaches that level in any sense.
• Also, Ange is a character in ep6 and has a specific role in that narrative. It's not clear how this role coincides with Erika's at all.
• Battler insinuates that Ange being able to go to the island on his board in ep8 is a special magical miraculous thing that is an exception for Ange and little-Ange seems to take this as a unique and novel experience. If Ange has already essentially been on the island as Erika, it cheapens that entire aspect of Battler's game.
• Battler also invited Erika to his party which Ange was already at. The party is essentially incorporating all characters in their meta-identities. Is Erika a separate meta-entity or isn't she? How could she be both a distinct meta-entity and an aspect of a completely different meta-entity? Not even Bern acts like Erika is an essential part of her existence or anything.
• Finally... Erika Furudo was a real person, even if all the stuff about her on the island is completely untrue. Ange would know this, more than anybody else would. It would be incredibly weird for Ange to choose to mentally associate herself with a different physical person just to get onto the island, and bastardize that person's entire characterization to represent some need she has. If she has that much of an imagination, why not just place herself there? Why do all those horrible things to an unfortunate stranger? Erika's portrayal is already pretty messed-up, and I don't think we're supposed to see her inclusion in the stories as a positive thing for anyone involved.

[jjblue1]

I think Erika was actually a real person who fell in the sea prior to the tragedy and later on it was speculated she might have ended up on Rokkenjima. Likely there weren't so many info on her that were public knowledge and her life so her character is mostly fictional or speculation based on the little about her that was known.
Sure thing there are a lot of parallels between her and Ange and they're likely created on purpose. Interesting is that Erika appears as Bern's piece after Ance's piece destroyed herself due to her wish to help the brother she loved.

Erika seems to be a memento to Ange. Although love can lead you to see things that aren't there if you completely give up on it things will be actually worse, you'll become a worse person and you'll lose sight of the true truth, forcing your own views on something.

Erika can be seen as the symbolic representation of many things that plagued/risked to plague Ange.
However I don't think Erika IS Ange, it's more likely she was built to show Ange what she could become and in the bad ending Ange more or less choses to become like Erika. She loses faith in the people around her and destroy them, ending up on drifting aimlessly on the sea. Ironically in the same way as Erika her fate would become unknown as she would disappear and it would be unknown is she died in the sea or reached Rokkenjima as she planned or... something else.

Ange might have also felt some closeness with Piece Erika. Undoubtely she would have liked to be able to solve any mystery and placing the crime on Natsuhi might have been even better than placing it on Eva as she would have been able to deny the Rudolf's family culprit theory and yet accept Eva's love.
Also, even though later on Ange regretted hurting Maria it's likely when she was a child she did not. It's typical of small children to long for showing themselves as better than who's older than them. Waving off Maria's magic and going to play with the older cousins Ange defines herself as more mature than Maria. Dlanor said what pushed Erika to attack Maria were, according to him, negative emotions. It's possible Ange did the same to Maria for the same reason. Surely it's hard to think that she had negative emotions due to a boyfriend dumping her though it can be that part is a reference to Kyrie and Rudolf?

It's possible that Rudolf kept cheating on Kyrie even after marrying her, creating an unpleasant family situation so that Ange was subconsciously afraid her parents would divorce so Ange vented her feelings of frustration on Maria.

Though it'll be interesting if that scene is a hint to what happened between Rudolf and Asumu and would explain well Rudolf's guilt and Battler's reaction to Rudolf's marriage.

Interesting enough after all Erika's past drama apparently doesn't have direct references with Yasu (George and Jessica didn't cheat on her, as for Battler he might have had another girl but he's not there to interact with Yasu nor Yasu can find clues about him cheating), Battler (he claims he's single, sure, he has an interest in Shannon who's now George's girlfriend but the situation doesn't mirror Erika's) or Ange (no love relations unless you force things and say that's a twisted representation of Ange's love for her brother how she believed her brother was Tohya and how he refused to meet her, which might have lead her to feel 'cheated'. To me however it feels like a very forced parallel).

[MeIsMe]

Erika solved Shkanon in ep 8 manga. Seems like there are going to be more changes in the manga

[Cao Ni Ma]

She certainly says something but I cant read any of it plus Battler didnt really have any time to counterattack which we'd assume he'll do next chapter.

Battler also says a golden truth that eradicates all of the goats.

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Interesting theory! I don't think I've heard that before.

What do you propose as Battler and Yasu's reason for choosing to re-enact the scenario? And in that theory, would the deaths of the other people on the island be a deliberate part of that re-enactment, and if so, why? And if not, why did the deaths happen?

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

She certainly says something but I cant read any of it plus Battler didnt really have any time to counterattack which we'd assume he'll do next chapter.

Battler also says a golden truth that eradicates all of the goats.

I just read the Ep 8 manga on Mangareader, and I didn't see anything. In fact, it's only up to the first half of the game(before Bern challenges Battler to her specially created game and makes Ange seek out the Book of Single Truth).

Is there another place where they're further along in the Ep 8 Manga?

[Drifloon]

I think they're talking about the newest Japanese release. It's not been scanlated that far yet. And we're actually not allowed to talk about scanlations in here, IIRC.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Its a Chinese raw.

Spoiler for EP8 Golden Truth:

And here's Erika as she begins her reasoning towards ep6s lock room

Spoiler:

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

She certainly says something but I cant read any of it plus Battler didnt really have any time to counterattack which we'd assume he'll do next chapter.

No idea if he'll make in time as the next chapter's title is "Toya Hachijo" so there's the chance we'll skip to Ange freeing herself, opening the book and then to Toya's meeting with Ikuko completely removing from the plot the battle Erika and Battler had in the visual novel about closed rooms in favour of Erika solving Shkanon and be done with it?

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Battler also says a golden truth that eradicates all of the goats.

Yup, I know I'm repeating myself but the changes in Ep 8 definitely improved the chapter. I wish some of them had been applied to Ep 7 as well instead Ep 7 isn't saying much more than the Visual novel did and I'm not really fond of how it handles the narrative of certain pieces of the story.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

She certainly says something but I cant read any of it plus Battler didnt really have any time to counterattack which we'd assume he'll do next chapter.

She says something along the lines of the problem she didn't understand was that it was never fixed how many names a person could hold, instead of names being fixed to a person. So she solves it by the rescuer "being Kanon and not being Kanon."

So yes, she basically solved Shkannon, though the person in that case is just given as person X in a raincoat who is being recognized by Battler as Kanon.

Battler also says a golden truth that eradicates all of the goats.

That should be "This is the final game that I made for Ange..." in an answer to it's value and impact on everything that is being questioned by the goats. So it's basically him saying that which has become the highlight of the changes to EP8 in the manga, "This is all for Ange, so fuck it if it's true or not!"

[ALPHA-Beatrice]

Originally Posted by haguruma

She says something along the lines of the problem she didn't understand was that it was never fixed how many names a person could hold, instead of names being fixed to a person. So she solves it by the rescuer "being Kanon and not being Kanon."

So yes, she basically solved Shkannon, though the person in that case is just given as person X in a raincoat who is being recognized by Battler as Kanon.

So that's Erika's "Shkannon" Solution....Sorry Erika-Chan, Objection:

All People can only use their own Names

The term "All People" might be vague, it might be possible that "Shannon" is recognized as Kanon, but this isn't evidenced at any point up until the Shkannon theory. So we can use this rule to further prove it.

Knox's 1st: The Culprit must be someone who appeared early in the series.

These two Red truths mean that Yasu could not have existed within the Umineko timeframe. Even Ushiromiya Lion is more legitimate than Yasu(Opinion, but I think I can put it in the context of the Red Truth given the evidence I just prescribed)

Here's my Blue Truth surrounding Shakannon.

One of the 17 people on Rokkenjima simply don't exist. We could imply this to be Kanon(in the Shkannon theory). However, the "even if you join us" is crucial. Battler/Beatrice could've just simply said "There are 16 people on Rokkenjima" and be done with it, but yet they willingly included the "probability" of Erika joining. My theory(and I admit it's Known's theory as well) is that Erika never existed.

Actually, it's not even a theory. We're told outright that She doesn't count in either of the 4 games. That's a major hint right there to the solution.

Of course, her body may very well have washed ashore on Rokkenjima, but the only time anyone could've actually seen her. Was when the family docked off the boat(and we never see any evidence of any lying body ever.) Or. When the Cousins go out to the beach. Hell, you'd especially think Maria would recognize a dead body and she could say "Beatrice Exists" UUU~