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Old 2010-07-12, 16:07   Link #2901
chronotrig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Is it possible she could have sealed the wrong room in the first instance? Again, there are many other problems, such as the who entered/left issue. I'm just trying to make this easier on Oliver so he isn't married to a theory people don't necessarily agree with (himself included).
I don't think so. How could you check Battler's corpse and then immediately seal the room...but then not seal the same room that Battler was in?

And I think the red denies this specifically:
The guest room was sealed at the time that Battler's 'corpse' was examined, so until I came again and broke the seals, it was absolutely impossible for anyone to go in or out.
Therefore, when I entered the room, it is certain that Battler was hiding somewhere inside the guest room.



Quote:
Again, not without the same sort of Method X that would permit Kanon's escape. The problem is Battler is not clear on who he is excluding other than Kinzo. It seems obvious from context that Erika should be outside, but we don't know if Battler held to that. If there is no Erika anyway, and her seals exist only metaphorically... but even then, Kinzo's body is apparently explicitly excluded, even though the red doesn't say that.
Kanon's escape was only possible because he was never in that room. That's more or less confirmed with the red. It's also confirmed with the red that a body named Erika entered the guestroom. So, Erika does have a body, and that body could not have been in the next room over.
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Old 2010-07-12, 16:08   Link #2902
Judoh
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Actually this was my theory before, but nobody got around to arguing against it. or rather they thought it was too lenient. Erika's body can be allowed to exist up to the point where she is denied. In other words until we get the 'Even if we welcome you' red she still technically had a body of her own within that tale.

So with that we can basically consider the 5th and 6th games elseworlds. That doesn't mean they don't contain truth though.
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Old 2010-07-12, 16:13   Link #2903
DgBarca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I don't think so. How could you check Battler's corpse and then immediately seal the room...but then not seal the same room that Battler was in?

And I think the red denies this specifically:
The guest room was sealed at the time that Battler's 'corpse' was examined, so until I came again and broke the seals, it was absolutely impossible for anyone to go in or out.
Therefore, when I entered the room, it is certain that Battler was hiding somewhere inside the guest room.


Kanon's escape was only possible because he was never in that room. That's more or less confirmed with the red. It's also confirmed with the red that a body named Erika entered the guest room. So, Erika does have a body, and that body could not have been in the next room over.
Haaa, what if the third body that get into the room was Guaranteed to be Ushiromiya Kizno corpse ?

Erika situation in the Chiru arcs is...pretty...exactly the same as Kinzo, but here we don't even know if there is a corpse that just dropped of on Rokkenj...
Nice to meet you, hello! I am Furudo Erika, a detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please welcome me!! I am the visitor, the eighteenth human on Rokkenjima!!
Well I guess there is a corpse afterall.

Erika Furudo is a character from a play made by the Ushiromiyas at the time of the familiy conference...
It's all a play, EP6 is a play, but the "actor" playing Erika's role went nuts and killed people.
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Old 2010-07-12, 16:18   Link #2904
Pinguma
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I'm glad someone else noticed the similarity with EP1. My solution for the EP6 closed room is:

Spoiler for EP6 Closed room:
What I liked about this scenario was the way it tied in with the second twilight in EP1. Kanon cuts the chain to get inside but it was mentioned that he himself found it surprisingly easy to cut through the chain using the wire cutters, even if he was using his entire strength . This seems a bit odd considering his physical strength. So was he cutting as a point which had already been cut...? Of course in EP1 the duct tape isn't pointed out by Kanon when he cuts it and no one else really notices the chain. Even so it may still have been there, or a less obvious substance may have been used to join the two parts together, an adhesive (like glue) which would be more transparent and harder to notice, and enough time would have passed since the murder for it to set.

I think the closed room in that is set up in a very similar way because after all, Battler was trying to prove he understood the mystery. In other words, the culprit doesn't have to go hiding under the bed, they could have simply used the same method as above. The way they did it in EP6 where Erika says 'Kanon is hiding under the bed', yet being wrong feels like another similarity to EP1, almost saying the culprit wasn't under the bed, but had escaped, just as Kanon had done in EP6.
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Old 2010-07-12, 16:25   Link #2905
luckyssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinguma View Post
...Kanon shuts the door and escapes...
How do you get around the red truth that states that only Battler left?
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Old 2010-07-12, 16:27   Link #2906
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Kanon's escape was only possible because he was never in that room. That's more or less confirmed with the red. It's also confirmed with the red that a body named Erika entered the guestroom. So, Erika does have a body, and that body could not have been in the next room over.
I do not accept as a conclusion that "Furudo Erika" has a body. There is a body belonging to an entity identified as "Erika." That may be "Furudo Erika," but it may not be.

The point is correct though; if "Erika" has a body, she either is in fact in the next room over, or "Erika" was explicitly excluded from the name check along with Kinzo. However, unlike with Kinzo, Battler never addresses, nor is asked to address, where "Erika" (whoever she may be) is located. So where is the body of "Erika?" Why can we simply assume she's excluded from the definition when Kinzo is the only one explicitly so excluded? And hell, how do we even know Battler did exclude him? Maybe Kinzo's corpse is under Maria's bed.
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Old 2010-07-12, 16:29   Link #2907
DgBarca
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I do not accept as a conclusion that "Furudo Erika" has a body. There is a body belonging to an entity identified as "Erika." That may be "Furudo Erika," but it may not be.

The point is correct though; if "Erika" has a body, she either is in fact in the next room over, or "Erika" was explicitly excluded from the name check along with Kinzo. However, unlike with Kinzo, Battler never addresses, nor is asked to address, where "Erika" (whoever she may be) is located. So where is the body of "Erika?" Why can we simply assume she's excluded from the definition when Kinzo is the only one explicitly so excluded? And hell, how do we even know Battler did exclude him? Maybe Kinzo's corpse is under Maria's bed.
Erika's corpse is Kinzo's.
Ho...damnitdamnitdamnitdamnitdamnit.
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Old 2010-07-12, 16:32   Link #2908
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Actually this was my theory before, but nobody got around to arguing against it. or rather they thought it was too lenient. Erika's body can be allowed to exist up to the point where she is denied. In other words until we get the 'Even if we welcome you' red she still technically had a body of her own within that tale.

So with that we can basically consider the 5th and 6th games elseworlds. That doesn't mean they don't contain truth though.
Maybe that's because nobody disagrees with you. 8) I certainly don't.

I viewed the inclusion of Erika as a Author Theory privilege of the Author. In the same way fans can write themselves into stories (and make a crappy character), so can Hachijou write that Bernkastel wrote Erika in.

Now that the truth has come to light, no further author would be caught dead writing Erika as if she was alive anymore...

(This is why I feel like Hachijou lied about writing EP3-4, but maybe only 'found' them instead. And that she did write EP5-6 because of the huge change in style... that and I want to call her a hack writer just to spite her arrogance. 8) )
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Old 2010-07-12, 16:36   Link #2909
Pinguma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
How do you get around the red truth that states that only Battler left?
Sorry, I mentioned that in the Spoilers and Speculations thread. I'm a bit all over the place >_>

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...05#post3136405

I also added a bit in the post below.
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Old 2010-07-12, 16:43   Link #2910
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
Erika's corpse is Kinzo's.
Ho...damnitdamnitdamnitdamnitdamnit.
I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to wear a girl's swimsuit and duct tape the entire guest house.

<RUNS AWAY>
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Old 2010-07-12, 16:53   Link #2911
luckyssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
(This is why I feel like Hachijou lied about writing EP3-4, but maybe only 'found' them instead. And that she did write EP5-6 because of the huge change in style... that and I want to call her a hack writer just to spite her arrogance. 8) )
Ah, and maybe she's just dying of boredom so she created an entire fake story for her miko. I wouldn't put it past Hanyuu.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinguma View Post
Sorry, I mentioned that in the Spoilers and Speculations thread. I'm a bit all over the place >_>

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...05#post3136405

I also added a bit in the post below.
Hmm... that might be difficult. I think everyone in the game agreed that the game was suspended.
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Old 2010-07-12, 16:54   Link #2912
Renall
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Did anyone else sort of get the sense that Hachijou and Featherine weren't the same person? There were dramatic shifts in their apparent knowledge and attitude whenever the game jumped to an "Ange in Hachijou's house in the 'real' world" scene versus when it jumped to "ANGE and Featherine in her 'meta'-world study."

Something is just really, really off. They behave like they know different things, and it almost seems like Hachijou knows more.
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Old 2010-07-12, 16:55   Link #2913
Leafsnail
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Quick thought (bearing in mind I haven't finished yet and this may be confirmed or contradicted later on) - EVA-Beatrice in ep3 was not, in fact, defeated by Beatrice knowing the truth. She was defeated due to a simple logic error - she declared the murderer was a human, even though it had been established in all 3 games that the witch did not count as a human.
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Old 2010-07-12, 16:56   Link #2914
Kylon99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Did anyone else sort of get the sense that Hachijou and Featherine weren't the same person? There were dramatic shifts in their apparent knowledge and attitude whenever the game jumped to an "Ange in Hachijou's house in the 'real' world" scene versus when it jumped to "ANGE and Featherine in her 'meta'-world study."

Something is just really, really off. They behave like they know different things, and it almost seems like Hachijou knows more.
That's what it seemed like to me. That, plus the game fading in and out of Featherine and Hachijou made me feel like it was trying too hard to convince me that they were the same without actually telling me.

It's like when Beatrice goes, "Look! Look! Look! It's magic!" You know a trollface is coming soon... 8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Quick thought (bearing in mind I haven't finished yet and this may be confirmed or contradicted later on) - EVA-Beatrice in ep3 was not, in fact, defeated by Beatrice knowing the truth. She was defeated due to a simple logic error - she declared the murderer was a human, even though it had been established in all 3 games that the witch did not count as a human.
That's what I thought as well. I was literally crying about how useless Battler was not noticing that she effectively blew up the entire fantasy world with red. 8)
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Old 2010-07-12, 17:03   Link #2915
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Did anyone else sort of get the sense that Hachijou and Featherine weren't the same person? There were dramatic shifts in their apparent knowledge and attitude whenever the game jumped to an "Ange in Hachijou's house in the 'real' world" scene versus when it jumped to "ANGE and Featherine in her 'meta'-world study."

Something is just really, really off. They behave like they know different things, and it almost seems like Hachijou knows more.
I did get that sense and I think I said something similar a few pages ago. Only the person I thought was the most out of character was Ange. It just felt like the entire conversations between Featherine and her was ad-libbed... From the examples I gave, Ange should understand much more than she is presented to in her conversations with Featherine. So yeah I definitely think something is going on there.
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Old 2010-07-12, 17:05   Link #2916
luckyssol
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The whole thing seemed like it was based off Ange's delusion of having met someone like Hachijou.

If Ange never actually met Hachijou but is the author of Umineko no naku koro ni I don't have any problems.
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Old 2010-07-12, 17:05   Link #2917
Jan-Poo
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What Eva did wasn't necessarily a logic error. It all depends on how the gameboard is set.
Personally I don't think it was a logic error in that a solution for that web of red truths existed and many interpretations have been proposed. As long as a solution exists and is known by the Game Master it isn't a logic error.

Making it appear as a logic error 'though is the witch's duty. However it should only appear as such without using magic tricks, so the human side is forced to accept the magic interpretation.
What Eva did wrong was that she made it look like a logic error even with magic tricks. However it was still "making it look like" a logic error and not actually a logic error.
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Old 2010-07-12, 17:08   Link #2918
Renall
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I think Eva-Beatrice's "it was a human who could use magic" is fine, at least it doesn't necessarily cause a Logic Error, and I see no reason why some human wasn't alive to kill Nanjo; there's plenty of ways you could come up with an answer.
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This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-07-12, 17:11   Link #2919
ghost_zero5
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Hmm... Does anyone completely understand the relationship between Featherine und Bernkastel?
Was Bernkastel her miko during Higurashi? Furthermore, Featherine really seem to be incredible powerful.

And why did Hanyo also have such "bullhorns". I mean the reason for Featherine was explained in the Tips but why would Hanyo need them?
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Old 2010-07-12, 17:12   Link #2920
Judoh
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Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
Hmm... Does anyone completely understand the relationship between Featherine und Bernkastel?
Was Bernkastel her miko during Higurashi?
Doubtful. It's highly suggested to be a game similar to Battler and Beato's. That and was there ever a logic error in Higurashi? Not possible since the premise of red doesn't exist there.
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