Romance in Macross

[ippus]

Oh god, I read something completely weird, sorry. I think it's a sign I should really go tosleep now.

Though, still, considering how easily Ranka just ditches things when she feels like it, I seriously doubt that Nanase and Sheryl were such over-whelming forces against Ranka's self-centeredness.

Also, I never said that Aimo was Ranka's main reason for wanting to make it big, just that saying her wanting to sing isn't just a momentary fad she cooked up in a moment's notice after watching MVs all her life. The overwhelming need to spread her singing however was something she mentioned herself long before the 'interference' of Sheryl or Nanase. You can't blame her downfall on other people who supported her choice when she wanted it in the first place.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by ippus

Oh god, I read something completely weird, sorry. I think it's a sign I should really go tosleep now.

No problem.

Though, still, considering how easily Ranka just ditches things when she feels like it, I seriously doubt that Nanase and Sheryl were such over-whelming forces against Ranka's self-centeredness.

More like they spurred her along, and didn't have the heart to say no, despite her doubts.

Also, I never said that Aimo was Ranka's main reason for wanting to make it big, just that saying her wanting to sing isn't just a momentary fad she cooked up in a moment's notice after watching MVs all her life. The overwhelming need to spread her singing however was something she mentioned herself long before the 'interference' of Sheryl or Nanase. You can't blame her downfall on other people who supported her choice when she wanted it in the first place.

I don't think it was an "overwhelming need", especially since she mostly kept it to herself. Basically some people told her to "give it a shot", and she did, and she kept at it without considering whether she really wanted to, while doing it because so many people supported her. And I don't see it as a downfall. I see it as wising up, and figuring out some things just aren't for her.

[sekidousai]

Originally Posted by ippis

Sheryl...technically really couldn't force him to do anything.

I beg to disagree here. Sheryl forced Alto to come with by stealing his necklace and putting it in her boobs, Since then I view Sheryl is like Alto's master who put a dogchain on his neck, Alto also knew there would be consequences if he didn't listen to Sheryl, Alto is always letting out a sigh that Sheryl is a pain in @ss unless he is just acting it. At the beginning of the series I really thought that this is a Sheryl show and Ranka's career was headed nowhere, and everytime she is being pawned by Sheryl in the love triangle department, so i don't really see it as a one sided triangle. Ranka's luck then has been worse and worse, also when she is selling her CD's in the street(the time Bobby helped with her make-up ) and i expected her luck to change the following ep but then she took a role of a singing carrot, and then her supposed to be TV slot was stolen by Sheryl and then being casted with such a minute role in the Movie. It was funny when she said she is 1 of the noname islander girls but it was also sad. Her luck only changed after the director gave her the role of Mao, But then again the Military with Grace's manipulation took advantage of Ranka.

She never said she started singing because of Sheryl Nome (At least I don't recall such a thing ever happening) so calling her a rabid fan mimicking her idol/object of obsession isn't remotely right

In the beginning of the series Ranka was Singing Diamond Crevasse, and then Sheryl revealed herself to her. Ranka is not a Rabid fan but a big fan. And she sings(mimicks) most of her songs. Of course she cannot use Sheryl's songs anymore .... at least until they make it legal from the RIAA.

Also, considering Ranka basically just dropped the whole Songstress of Hope act despite having the lives of the entire fleet of Macross on the line, I seriously doubt Nanase's enthusiasm did very much at all.

She said she would stop singing because of the trauma induced by what happened the day before. She realized that when shen she sings she could attract the Vajra, and if she sang then she thought of the possibility the the same thing could happen again.

And...what? Since when did Nanase and Sheryl EVER tell her to make it big with Aimo;;; You're just making things up now.

Sheryl did not say make it big with Aimo, But Sheryl did inspire Ranka to do her best during the Miss Macross, Until Alto made a disapearing act taking along her confidence with him.

[aneeshadc]

@Sekidousai
If alto really wanted to, he could have still been firm with her & told her, a friend of his was in trouble & he had to go look for her, so u better return my charm/necklace ite nw, but he didnt. I'm sure if he had been insistant enuf, she would have still returned his charm without dragging him everywhere with her. Sure, he was angry but not enuf to not comply with her wishes. He did end up enjoying the date.

What consequences? One of the reasons sheryl likes him is because he isnt intimidated by her & tells her when he finds her annoying, in other words treats her normal. Every one of their interactions after, he can easily tell her no but he doesnt.

@ Wesley

The 'cute' sheryl that u seem to be missing isnt gone, she just hasnt had a relaxing opportunity to resurface after star date.
She cant be 'cute' when galaxy's been attacked by the Vajra & alto's fighting.
She cant be 'cute' when the guy she wanted to fly in the sky with just left with another girl.
She cant be 'cute' when she's sick & in the hospital.
She cant be 'cute' when she's just found out she's dying.
She cant be 'cute' when she's decided to push alto away.
She cant be 'cute' when the vajra are massacreing people around her.
She cant be 'cute' when there she can see that Frontier has become a war zone.

So u see, when kawamori decides to give her a break like he did in star date, I'm sure she'll surface again. She's only been reacting to the chaotic circumstances around her & adapting to them in the best way she can, there's hardly any time for her to be acting 'cute'.

[sekidousai]

If alto really wanted to, he could have still been firm with her & told her, a friend of his was in trouble & he had to go look for her, so u better return my charm/necklace ite nw, but he didnt. I'm sure if he had been insistant enuf, she would have still returned his charm without dragging him everywhere with her. Sure, he was angry but not enuf to not comply with her wishes. He did end up enjoying the date.

He could be firm but he did'nt. You might as well ask Alto why did'nt you point a gun in her head and give it back. If some girl did that to you, especially a pop star would you be able to turn it down. It was amazing Alto was able to turn her down at first, but it would be amazingly gay of him if he were to turn it down again.
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About Sheryl's character dev't. not that i'm gonna complain about it. You see it's really hard to develope her character further since she already has a well developed character.

[MaiHikari]

Originally Posted by sekidousai

About Sheryl's character dev't. not that i'm gonna complain about it. You see it's really hard to develope her character further since she already has a well developed character.

There's always more room for development. It makes life interesting.

Sheryl can learn to trust people more. Starting by confiding in Alto about her condition, seeking help from her friends to find a cure to her disease, or just spend her final days happily with them. You can't live life alone and Sheryl is starting to learn that. I'd like to see her apply that because I want to see her happy.

[sekidousai]

Well i did'nt really say there isn't anymore room. I'm saying she is good enough as she is. except for the dying thing. And yeah i think that's one of the character she would be missing, trusting people or opening her heart to someone(Alto), confiding her problems. I now remember Klan saying "how can you fall in love when you're so afraid of dying"(i modified it a little.) at least it would open up for a more dramatic ending, maybe it was being saved for last...

[solothurn]

@ippus:

I was gonna reply to your post in a prepared response in my head, but come the time I got access to a computer, I kinda lost the mood, so I'll just be brief. ^^;

I think what you are trying to say is that the reason you seem to think Ranka is the main character is due to the fact that compared to Alto or Sheryl individually, she seems to have the most number of screen time, as well as her role to the resolution of the Vajra plot. I acknowledge that, but I don't really agree to it, considering that aside from those two central points, everything else seem to say otherwise.

Either way, I guess it's just time to move on from this discussion, given that both parties gave some valid points to consider.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by aneeshadc

*snip*

She can be cute just as often as she is sick or not sick as the case may be. I don't know the nature of her illness, but it's a rather convinent one from a story-telling perspective.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Sheryl recognized a captive audience, and took the advantage. Hell, even the damn emergency lighting was working to her benefit.

It's statements like this that makes everyone think you're a troll. It's far more likely that Sheryl sang because she wanted to comfort everyone with the power of music; which is apparently like the most powerful thing in the Macross-verse.

I don't think Ranka had serious aspirations for singing. Hell, it's Macross. Evidently the entire population reveres Idols, singers, and pilots as God-like beings that everyone should aspire to. Singing as a means of communication or expressing yourself is hardly an original dream or ideal, and it makes sense for an impressionable young girl to pick up the idea from whatever entertainment weekly she has on hand or even their freakin' history books.

So ranka was a weak minded fop who had no idea what she was doing? I totally agree with you on that point.

Once she decided to try it out, basically everyone pushed her into doing it. The only one who put up any opposition was Ozma, and he wasn't very diplomatic...

I see Ranka getting into things casually, and ending up not wanting to let anyone down. Until now, where she's finally thinking about what she really wants.

Really? Cause it sure seemed to me that she wanted to go into singing. No one forced her to go into singing, they merely encouraged her to do what she wanted ;except Nanase but I assume Nanase being Rankas closet lesbian stalker/best friend, she knows what Ranka wants. Heck, she even disregards Ozmas reluctance to let her go into singing. Sounds like she knows what she wants and goes for it.

She said she would stop singing because of the trauma induced by what happened the day before. She realized that when shen she sings she could attract the Vajra, and if she sang then she thought of the possibility the the same thing could happen again.
Sheryl did not say make it big with Aimo, But Sheryl did inspire Ranka to do her best during the Miss Macross, Until Alto made a disapearing act taking along her confidence with him.

There is no evidence that Ranka even realises that her singing attracts the Vajra. She knows she has the power to affect them and make them easier to kill (Ranka, the super bard of doom!) but there's no real proof the Vajra are only attracted to her. They did attack Galaxy (though for unknown reasons) and presumably the fleet that Ranka was on before that.

Originally Posted by sekidousai

He could be firm but he did'nt. You might as well ask Alto why did'nt you point a gun in her head and give it back. If some girl did that to you, especially a pop star would you be able to turn it down. It was amazing Alto was able to turn her down at first, but it would be amazingly gay of him if he were to turn it down again.
-------------------------

Somehow, I doubt Alto has trouble rejecting females -_- Especially for fear of looking 'gay' as you put it. Perhaps because he spent a lot of time being mistaken as a female and acting as a female when he was younger. But yeah, weak argument. Alto would have easily told Sheryl to bugger off, but he didn't not because he was afraid of being gay but because he didn't want to. Keep in mind this is the same Alto who basically told Sheryl off in episode 1.

[sekidousai]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

There is no evidence that Ranka even realises that her singing attracts the Vajra. She knows she has the power to affect them and make them easier to kill (Ranka, the super bard of doom!) but there's no real proof the Vajra are only attracted to her. They did attack Galaxy (though for unknown reasons) and presumably the fleet that Ranka was on before that.

So when the military told her that she is bait she did'nt realize it? When she sang she even called out to the vajra, she said "oide" and the whole swarm came.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by sekidousai

I beg to disagree here. Sheryl forced Alto to come with by stealing his necklace and putting it in her boobs, Since then I view Sheryl is like Alto's master who put a dogchain on his neck, Alto also knew there would be consequences if he didn't listen to Sheryl, Alto is always letting out a sigh that Sheryl is a pain in @ss unless he is just acting it. At the beginning of the series I really thought that this is a Sheryl show and Ranka's career was headed nowhere, and everytime she is being pawned by Sheryl in the love triangle department, so i don't really see it as a one sided triangle. Ranka's luck then has been worse and worse, also when she is selling her CD's in the street(the time Bobby helped with her make-up ) and i expected her luck to change the following ep but then she took a role of a singing carrot, and then her supposed to be TV slot was stolen by Sheryl and then being casted with such a minute role in the Movie. It was funny when she said she is 1 of the noname islander girls but it was also sad. Her luck only changed after the director gave her the role of Mao, But then again the Military with Grace's manipulation took advantage of Ranka.

Sheryl did not say make it big with Aimo, But Sheryl did inspire Ranka to do her best during the Miss Macross, Until Alto made a disapearing act taking along her confidence with him.

Ranka worked her way up through the ranks, which was actually nice to see. She wasn´t magically picked at Miss Macross, but rather had weeks of slight disappointements to go through, just as most aspiring stars have.

And she probably *would* have been elected Miss Macross, if it weren´t for Leon. Also, her "losing confidence" after Alto had to leave didn´t last more then one error, her singing seemed completely well done. <kyuun, kyuun, kyuun, kyuun... >

[sekidousai]

hahahahaha~ lols
I remember that scene when she made a bow and the mic hit her head after she just introduced herself!!!! instant ROFL!

And now here i am thinking "OMG!!!! is this really the one hope that humanity have against the Vajra!!!??? ( ﾟДﾟ) aaAAAAaaAAAAAAAaaa!!!! were doomed !!!!!!!!...... _|￣|○......._|￣|○"

Also i have noticed May'n/Sheryl doesn't have any Minmei songs. and also i wish that the KyunKyun song was much longer.
Iv'e listened to it again and I really enjoy listening to Megumi's rendition but when i listened closely again with the original i noticed that Mari Ijima's voice have a really good dynamic range her transition from low to high pitch is so smooth. It's not that Megumi's bad but its just some stuff i noticed ^^. it's just my opinion other people might hear it differently...
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Okay now to get back to the main topic... As i have noticed Ranka has a lot of Minmei parallels from the original series... and at this point she might be headed for the Minmei path of unrequited love... but when i think that the same thing might happen again..... I stop and wonder ..... No way we will have another Minmei ending repetition!!!!!!.

At this point i still cannot grasp how it could end with an AltoxRanka ending... right now it is very easy to think of a SherylxAlto scenario.... In fact it is so easy that i'm having my doubts about it............. haha i have a very messed up logic don't i?

[ippus]

@sekidousai: I won't be responding to everything but, firstly I don't think Ranka was that much of a fan to begin with. For a girl who likes Sheryl Nome, she had absolutely nothing to say to her when she came to visit/stay for good at their school. You'd think she'd at least ask about her lifestyle, or feelings about her career, etc etc etc out of idolistic curiosity or at least to better prepare her own self for the life ahead- yet much of the time she just stared blankly at her; Also, Sheryl was the biggest thing in the music industry at the time, so it's only really natural that a girl when singing something out of the blue, would choose something well known at the time.

I also don't think Ranka ever lost her confidence in him despite the obvious ditching. Otherwise she wouldn't thank him for making her everything she was;; (more WTF moments here)

I do understand what you're saying on your last post though XD
I think people are placing too much emphasis on the things done in Macross history, and is having trouble realizing this is a whole different Macross that doesn't necessarily have to follow what happened then :/ I still think a RankaxAlto ending is up on the horizon, again I won't be happy about it at all, but there's a nagging feeling that keeps telling me it will happen >_>

I'll be happy to be proven wrong once the series is over but...*sigh*

@solothurn: The thing you have to remember is that this show is mostly about the ever moving love triangle. To place too much weight on Ranka would make the situation too obviously her win, and make the possibility of a SherylAlto ending very strange indeed. To prevent such confusion, and to make the love triangle to be more exciting, it's only natural that the spotlight be distributed out as much as possible- yet seeing as the greater important parts of the show itself is more Ranka-centric, she will be the undeniable MVP :/

@MaiHikari: I actually don't think Sheryl has problems reaching out to other people for help, seeing as she use to rely quite a bit on Grace and when given the chance, shows her sensitive sides to Alto without much second thought.

I think she just never gets the opportunity to gain strength from other people, seeing as her life has been the two extremes of Galaxy beggary to supertastic popstar. Nobody ever really asks her "Are you okay" or tries to find out anything about her. Nanase basically dubbed her evil on first glance even if all she did was attempt to help Ranka get her career. Even her entire fanbase turned their back on her over a single failure due to illness. Her 'thick skin' isn't due to her own mistrust, but is merely a manifestation of her realistic view on life, caused everyone else in her life being apathetic towards her.

This is also probably why Sheryl came to like Alto so much, seeing as he's the only one outside of Grace (who turned out to be a freaky bitch x_X) who actually treated her like a normal human being from beginning till end. Ignoring the fame, yet never letting her off to fend for herself. I think this even more so due to the scene before her gorgeous Diamond Crevasse live performance, where she completely forgets to tell the guards about Alto's backstage visit. She simply didn't expect him to bother with the earring, let alone come to check if she was alright, yet when he was there, she had absolutely no problem going all teary eyed on him.

[BetoJR]

I still fail to see all this larger emphasis being placed on Ranka, in opposition to Sheryl, but hey... let's just see how the series develops, eh? I, for one, would be very disappointed if Alto and Ranka ended up together, but, seeing as how this series finale is still up for grabs, I'll just wait and hold comment for now.

But I believe it's fairly obvious who I'm rooting for, no?

[ippus]

Well we had insights into Ranka's home life pretty early on, along with her waitress career, her dreams, her aspirations, her love life, her impact towards monsters coming in to destroy fleet, who by the way also happens to be related to her memory loss. A stranger appears only to be from her past, and is obsessively looking after her. The fleet looks to her singing for hope, and she in turn also faces the possibility as their reason for destruction. The villains intend to use her in their unspoken plan and spent msot fo the show watching what she'd do before coming out with it, etc etc etc.

I think the show's pretty Ranka centric in terms of its main plot :/

[BetoJR]

Don't care, I still Like Sheryl more.

Heh... I mean, what you say is all true, but, still, that's not the whole story of the series. The girl figures into lots of plot points, sure, but so do the other characters, at least most of them. Let's see what episode 22 brings to the table.

[CaptGloval]

Of course, it's been settled in this forum early on that in Macross a character's importance in plot have no bearing on the triangle.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by CaptGloval

Of course, it's been settled in this forum early on that in Macross a character's importance in plot have no bearing on the triangle.

Sure, all you have to do is remember Minmey, no?

[solothurn]

@ippus:

I'm sorry but I do not see how placing too much emphasis on a certain character automatically makes that character "win" or "be the big winner" in terms of the overall resolution of the story. Being the lead character in a series doesn't always mean you get a happy, fairy-tale ending, despite all the screen time and focus.

I also do not think the intention of dividing the attention between the three of them is to "dilute" the focus on Ranka for the sake of adding more excitement and suspense, if they truly intended Ranka to be the main character. I believe that if that is really their intention, that Ranka is truly the leading character of Macross Frontier, then the production team would have not been so indirect about it. All the promotion materials, articles and publicity releases should have marked Ranka as the clear leading character, just like all of the anime series out there where all leading characters are clearly labeled and supported by the character's role in the story.

The fact that they didn't, despite the nature of Ranka's role in the plot and the amount of attention given to her, indicates that they do not really intend Ranka as the sole leading character of the series, but rather, a slice of it. I have mentioned that tradition-wise, Alto should have been the leading character, but if you look at it clearly, there's no clear one.

Lastly, can we please lay this discussion a rest? Our arguments are both going in circles and going nowhere. If we should continue, then I predict we would just be repeating the same points over and over again in different words. I believe that we have both acknowledged each other points, no matter we may disagree and I also do not think this is the place to hold such a discussion, seeing as this is the Romance thread.

PS. Only a few more hours before the next ep!