Romance in Macross

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

Alto returned the earring to Sheryl out of pity? Where the hell did you come up with that assumption??? :t witch:

Out of pity? Are you typing that, and believing it with a straight face?

Why did he blush and look away when he gave the earring back to Sheryl? Why did he look at the earring affectionately after he hung it up inside the cockpit of the fighter? Why was he staring at it scenes later before the battle started?

The whole earring thing was NOT out of pity.

Yes part of the reason he went to return the earring at the time was because of feeling sorry for her after seeing her on the news when the Galaxy disappeared.

Why did he blush? He went all the way down there which is goes against his normal actions. He doesn't usually go out of his way to do things like that for people. Reason he did it once again he felt sorry for her. Why did he hang up the earring in the cockpit? Well she gave it to him as a good luck charm might as well put it to use. Why was he staring at it? Well of course because he had fallen madly in love with her! No, he definitely is touched that she would lend him such a precious item to her for goodluck. That doesn't mean he fallen for her.

That his initial reason for going their had to do partly with him feeling sorry for her is what I'm saying. He definitely didn't go their with the intention to seduce her nor did he come away with feelings of love after. Maybe a closer friendship or better understand but definitely no romantic feelings.

[Terra]

I don't see him feeling sorry for her being the reason he returned the earring right then. I think it was more that seeing her on the news reminded him to return the earring. He'd probably forgotten about it in the whole having to be on standby which was dropped on them suddenly. It was shown at the start of the ep he had every intention of returning it to her. He just got sidetracked.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Terra

I don't see him feeling sorry for her being the reason he returned the earring right then. I think it was more that seeing her on the news reminded him to return the earring. He'd probably forgotten about it in the whole having to be on standby which was dropped on them suddenly. It was shown at the start of the ep he had every intention of returning it to her. He just got sidetracked.

Ok I'll buy that. I was going to at least give him credit for feeling some sympathy and compassion for her situation. But him just going down there because he plum forgot about returning it until then it just as good. Still doesn't mean that their was an romantic feeling for him at least in that scene. You can change my sentence to " We don't know if Alto found any of these things romantic he seemed to be returning the earring because he just remembered to return it"

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by Tak

Yeah, when I initially read it, I was dumbfounded. Out of pi... the fu*k?

Where the hell was the pity in THAT!? Of all we know Alto wanted a heart-to-heart conversation with Sheryl as his first battle approaches. I think he was seeking equilibrium, there was no pity.

- Tak

You know, I feel sorry for every character in the show that Alto interacts with.

Lucca, as Alto only saved him, cause he felt sorry for him and pity.

Michel, as Alto only gave him encouragement to surpass his sister and move on with his life, cause he felt sorry and pity for him.

Sheryl, returning her earring was just out of pity.

Ranka, as giving her encouragement was again cause he felt sorry for her.

Osma, because Alto surely only took that punch from him in ep. 2, out of pity for losing his squadron mate.

All the VF-25's that Alto pilots, as they end up getting trashed at the end of the episode. Alto only felt pity on them and wanted them to die a glorious death.

Give me a break. If he only felt sorry for Sheryl, or pity, then you can put that on every other character he's interacted with so far.

I'm not saying he's madly in love with her. You're putting words into my mouth. What I am saying, is he has done things for her, that so far he hasn't shown to do towards anyone else.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Still doesn't mean that their was an romantic feeling for him at least in that scene.

NOBODY claimed anything romantic about that scene until you brought it up. Until you stuff words in everybody's mouths while providing pitifully little evidence, other than those from your imagination, to back up what you posted.

I sure as heck did not imply it was due to romance for Alto to return Sheryl's earring, but you claiming that it was out of pity is simply carrying this way over your head and beyond.

Originally Posted by justinstrife

You know, I feel sorry for every character in the show that Alto interacts with.

Or we can use his forceful 'romance' argument, seeing how everything Alto does must be romantically linked to Ranka somehow, even if it was just air and no substance.

Alto encouraged Mikhail to shoot because they are romantically involved.

Alto encouraged Lucca because they are romantically involved.

Alto having a conversation with Quran, alone, in the hanger, that must be romance! Nope, there are NO alternatives, that was romance!

Boy, oh boy, he is a busy man indeed.


Hell, forget romance, we have been taking turns just bashing Alto left and right. Then again, that may just be interpreted as a different kind of romance!

- Tak

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

You know, I feel sorry for every character in the show that Alto interacts with.

Lucca, as Alto only saved him, cause he felt sorry for him and pity.

Michel, as Alto only gave him encouragement to surpass his sister and move on with his life, cause he felt sorry and pity for him.

Sheryl, returning her earring was just out of pity.

Ranka, as giving her encouragement was again cause he felt sorry for her.

Osma, because Alto surely only took that punch from him in ep. 2, out of pity for losing his squadron mate.

All the VF-25's that Alto pilots, as they end up getting trashed at the end of the episode. Alto only felt pity on them and wanted them to die a glorious death.

Give me a break. If he only felt sorry for Sheryl, or pity, then you can put that on every other character he's interacted with so far.

I'm not saying he's madly in love with her. You're putting words into my mouth. What I am saying, is he has done things for her, that so far he hasn't shown to do towards anyone else.

Luca- Was about to die. Sure he felt compassion for him and mainly wanted to save his friend.

Michael- Sister died and was having doubts after misfiring. Did he fell some sort of compassion for him? He did feel the want to help him get over it? Yes.

Sheryl- Yes part of the reason was he felt sorry for her.

Ranka- She was about to die yes I do felt he compassion for her dying but probably the main reason was his want to him.

Ozma- No, pity here. Alto face just didn't get out of the way of Ozma fist in time.

He definitely probably did feel some sorrow and compassion for them. That doesn't mean that the only thing he felt.

Why do people risk their lives for others? If it isn't partially because of their compassion for the other person life then somethings wrong. People don't usually like seeing others die especially those they care about. Compassion and sympathy are the exact same as pity but people prefer to use these gentler words. Doesn't mean feeling this when someone is in trouble is in some way wrong.

He done things for her he's done for no one else huh? So if Ranka just happens to lose a piece of jewelry and Alto returns it I guess they'll truly then be on even grounds.

NOBODY claimed anything romantic about that scene until you brought it up. Until you stuff words in everybody's mouths while providing pitifully little evidence, other than those from your imagination, to back up what you posted.

I sure as heck did not imply it was due to romance for Alto to return Sheryl's earring, but you claiming that it was out of pity is simply carrying this way over your head and beyond.

Ok, then the original point was the statement that Ranka had no scenes with Alto that had romantic undertones. Those scenes were disputed by you and others as having no undertones at all. So if this Scenes doesn't have any undertones then you can pretty much say that Sheryl also doesn't have any scenes with romantic undertones either. I already stated that I was exaggerating about this point. I just don't believe you don't find any undertones in this or the others I stated.

If you read my previous statement you'll see I clearly admit I was exaggerating the point about the earring. If you don't believe he felt compassion and sympathy towards her losing her home and possibly friends then I don't know what to say.

[cheesie]

Originally Posted by justinstrife

I like the way you think.

Moe is good for everyone and all, but not many anime pairings ooze purely of unresolved sexual tension like Alto and Sheryl do.

Originally Posted by slick_rick

Compassion and sympathy are the exact same as pity but people prefer to use these gentler words.

Alto rushing off to return Sheryl's earring, is NOT due to pity. If any more statements like this come out of you hun, I'm not gonna take you seriously anymore.

Edit: I just checked the manga events, and, it seems the weight of his promise to her outweighs everything else in his mind. Wow, I'm surprised I didn't catch that the first time.

Alto definitely shown that he has a sensitive side. In EP1 after Ranka was scared in the VF he embraced her and understood that she was afraid. He show his sensitive side to both but generally he does show it more to Ranka. While Ranka isn't yet as mentally tough as Sheryl she has shown that she can deflect someone of Alto's negative personality. When Alto tells her she probably can't do the acting in Ep10 she calls him mean and tells him that he should encourage her even if its a lie. This causes him to open up and use his father's words to encourage her. This even shocks him that he does it. That she and him don't argue shouldn't be counted against them this is usually a good sign. (I admit not always so in animes.)

I'm talking about the everyday interactions that occur between them. Alto has proven he's a dumbass when it comes to handling girls. He totally oblivious to the fact that he's outright showing how much he's not interested in Ranka's journey to stardom in Episode 6, in fact Sheryl gave much more of a damn than he did. If they were in a relationship with each other, I can see Alto showing only the good side of him, when that's not who he is : the negative, sarcastic dumbass tsundere.

I'm not kidding when I see Alto holding a big part of himself back (read: tsundere) if he ends up with Ranka. Being cuddly and sweet and all that is nice, but if he unleashes the tsundere side of him to someone as awesome and sweet as Ranka, I'd kick his nuts till he goes blue.

TBH, Ranka can do better than Alto. Yes, Alto CAN be soft and nice and (try to be) sensitive and all to Ranka, yes, he HAS been encouraged and motivated by her and the same goes for her, but without the added flavor of UST/undertones that they gave to Alto/Sheryl, it's called a sibling relationship.

The anime drove the point home that Sheryl is capable of handling Alto as well as kicking him off his throne so she could sit on it. Most of Alto's insults and sarcastic teasing remarks either slide off her like jelly, or she'll return the exchange in the form of a teasing banter.

The two are compatible. I'll be honest here, this is what made me abandon the Alto/Ranka ship and jump aboard the Alto/Sheryl one, because even though Alto/Ranka has the potential to be the more nicely done moe!type pairings in a while, I hadn't anticipated a more interesting choice in the other side : I'll take an adult, complex pairing over moe anyday.

[ani_d]

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a big, HONKING difference between close personal friends and the fans?

"Close friends who love Sheryl are more valuable than a random person who loves Sheryl just as much."

Is that what you mean? =/ No matter how you look at it, affection IS affection. If it's genuine then it would be wrong to discriminate.

On another note, I may be a Ranka fan, but what else am I to point about her shortcomings here when every little thing has been nitpicked by everyone already---except for Sheryl who was even praised for her arrogance in episode 1. Gee...Must be a really nice alibi to leave her own fans' destiny to someone. She doesn't want leaving her destiny to someone else's hands yet she has no qualms when it comes to her fans leaving their own destiny to the military's hands lol

Originally Posted by Westlo

When they start flying around for Sheryl's performance Michael says don't fall in love with her while she singing. Alto immediately goes only you would do that.. 2 panels later.. "But... he isn't actually wrong... well me to". Combine that with him thinking "She handles the unexpected well" and than telling her "you're pretty incredible". ("Of course just who do you think I am" she replies) and his first impressions of Sheryl are great compared to the anime.

Are you sure there are no Ranka undertones here? The manga sounds like Alto and Sheryl already have a thing and then Ranka meets Alto afterwards and becomes this annoying third wheel. I'm going to read the whole thing. I can't trust you lol j/k

And Sheryl's action in the manga when the Vajra attacked is definitely more acceptable than in the anime. I can't see why people would appreciate her nonchalant behavior more than what Alto did in all honesty.

Originally Posted by justinstrife

That makes complete sense then why she can't understand Alto(or us guys in general) then.

I have a brother, I wonder if that counts

Anyway, Alto is an anime person. He's not as complex as a real life person who has more sides than what he lets people in on. If he's this kind of complex guy, we certainly would know since Kawamori would want his own characters to be understood by everyone following his story--not just guys. What is so undefinable about Alto's dishonest expression when he lied to Ranka? He simply didn't want Ranka to know he was with Sheryl. The point still stands that he and Ranka are just friends, yet he couldn't lie with a straight face even if he has no reason to feel guilty in the first place.

We all can see if Alto is genuinely happy or pissed or bothered or bored--most especially if he's in denial. I don't need to relate to him and put my feet on a guys' perspective because Kawamori already made him like an open book.

Originally Posted by Tak

Yep, and as I said earlier, I just don't see anything romantic happening anytime soon between Alto and Ranka (maybe by episode 12 ~ 14, I dunno).

This is the funniest line. Weren't you considering of driving a Molotov cocktail into Kawamori's office when you heard about episode 13?

Originally Posted by Tak

Alto is a simple man-creature, he may not be the worst of his kind, but surely not as sophisticated as what ani_d is willing to give him credit for. His mind is not so intertwined as to realize the emotions of others. What ani_d is craving for is a sensitive man, which at this time, Alto is anything but.

And Alto's brotherly treatment of Ranka is not sensitivity?

Originally Posted by Justinstrife

I'm not saying he's madly in love with her. You're putting words into my mouth. What I am saying, is he has done things for her, that so far he hasn't shown to do towards anyone else.

I think this is more applicable to Ranka. Romantic or not, Alto's soft side always always comes out whenever Ranka's alone with him. He comes to her on his own free will even if all Ranka does is whine to him lol I really wouldn't see Alto's treatment of Sheryl any different than Mikhail's if the latter became a girl.

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

We'll ignoring the audience point of view is kinda of silly IMO. The director obviously makes those with romantic tones on to push couples because even if the couples aren't completely aware of the romantic nature of the scene doesn't mean that they don't affect the characters future development.

Yes, thank you. Just the fact that the director wasted screentime animating two people bonding is already telling us about a romantic undertone whether the characters are aware or not. I'm not that biased to exclude the romantic undertones between Sheryl and Alto's because there are, however, ignoring Ranka and Alto's is unreasonable especially if the two were purposely shown to form a bond--romantic or not--before Sheryl came into the mix.

***edit

I'm disappointed at the tags. And I'm biased? LOL

[Tak]

Originally Posted by ani_d

This is the funniest line. Weren't you considering of driving a Molotov cocktail in Kawamori's office when you heard about episode 13?

Correction: I will drive a truck full of Molotov cocktails to Kawamori's office if at the end, Alto gets paired with Ranka. There is a clear difference.

Having the man-creature flirt is OK, having him paired with moe! is not..

Originally Posted by ani_d

And Alto's brotherly treatment of Ranka is not sensitivity?

Certainly not the type where he took the initiative.

- Tak

[cheesie]

I'd also like to give a pat to ani_d's back for being the sole Alto x Ranka supporter here in the face of ten Alto x Sheryl supporters (me included now. ) Granted, things did get heated up in the middle, but I hope to have us fighting for our pairings in my other fandoms if we ever agree on a pairing.

Originally Posted by ani_d

Are you sure there are no Ranka undertones here? The manga sounds like Alto and Sheryl already have a thing and then Ranka meets Alto afterwards and becomes this annoying third wheel. I'm going to read the whole thing. I can't trust you lol j/k

The manga made Ranka's crush on Alto somewhat trivial, a schoolgirl crush on Alto. (She mentions something about a "lifelong dream of a school life with Alto-kun" and signs in fangirl bliss.

[ani_d]

Originally Posted by Tak

Certainly not the type where he took the initiative.

- Tak

He took the initiative to give her a piggy back ride to the shooting site and didn't let her walk on her own two feet even when she woke up. He also took the initiative to tell Ranka to wipe her eyes since "everyone is going to see her crying." That's not sensitivity?

*edit

Originally Posted by crisis

I'd also like to give a pat to ani_d's back for being the sole Alto x Ranka supporter here in the face of ten Alto x Sheryl supporters

Am I really? =__= Yea, you're right. How sad. Anyway, looks like the manga will be cute. I'm checking it out.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by crisis

I'd also like to give a pat to ani_d's back for being the sole Alto x Ranka supporter here in the face of ten Alto x Sheryl supporters (me included now. ) Granted, things did get heated up in the middle, but I hope to have us fighting for our pairings in my other fandoms if we ever agree on a pairing.

Actually, there is Slick_rick as well

Although in the face of tremendous odds, the Ranka Alliance might consider exercising better coordination. For the Royal Guards of her Majesty Queen Sheryl the 1st, are relentless foes *snicker*

- Tak

[cheesie]

Originally Posted by Tak

Actually, there is Slick_rick as well

Although in the face of tremendous odds, the Ranka Alliance might consider exercising better coordination. For the Royal Guards of her Majesty Queen Sheryl the 1st, are relentless foes *snicker*

- Tak

Lol.

Sheryl is awesome, but not to the point where I pledge loyalty yet. I'm sure there's more to her character that has yet to be dissected.

However, I'm not surprised by her popularity. If it were other characters, she'll be bashed for being overrated, but with the multi-layers of her personality in the anime, as well as her blog entries (which is evidently written carefully under the consideration of her character), it saved her from being the overrated tag. She is one of the better characters to come out in a long, long time, a breath of fresh air compared to one-dimensional moe trash. That's not to say Ranka isn't a good character too, she is, but she carries some of the stereotypical moe traits with her and so, requires just a bit of effort to leave all that behind her and become a character that won't allow to be overshadowed by Sheryl.

[SymphonicRain]

The real gem of Ranka IMO is watching her grow and progress. You just can't help but cheer for her at the sidelines.

[nines]

Rankas growth is going a bit to fast and its going to overwhelm her going to be in this order
grow-happy-grow-questionable-grow-emo-grow-starts cutting self. But maybe she will get out of it who knows.

as for Sheryl she has some good growth so far all who think correctly should know what i mean and im not going to explain this because fights are annoying and i hate reading super ass long post x.x

As for macross its self TO DAMN SLOW 2 WEEKS OMG!!!!

[lone_wolf]

Originally Posted by crisis

Lol.

Sheryl is awesome, but not to the point where I pledge loyalty yet. I'm sure there's more to her character that has yet to be dissected.

However, I'm not surprised by her popularity. If it were other characters, she'll be bashed for being overrated, but with the multi-layers of her personality in the anime, as well as her blog entries (which is evidently written carefully under the consideration of her character), it saved her from being the overrated tag. She is one of the better characters to come out in a long, long time, a breath of fresh air compared to one-dimensional moe trash. That's not to say Ranka isn't a good character too, she is, but she carries some of the stereotypical moe traits with her and so, requires just a bit of effort to leave all that behind her and become a character that won't allow to be overshadowed by Sheryl.

Cheers to that! I raise my glass to a character such as Sheryl who breaks some standard anime conventions or at the very least, deviates from the current trend.


--Lone Wolf
一匹狼

[herbert]

@ Tak

May I ask what KOS-MOS stands for?

Originally Posted by ani_d

Sheryl who was even praised for her arrogance in episode 1. Gee...Must be a really nice alibi to leave her own fans' destiny to someone. She doesn't want leaving her destiny to someone else's hands yet she has no qualms when it comes to her fans leaving their own destiny to the military's hands lol

I like to provide your some posts from a while ago. I believe those are enough to tell you why we appreciate her actions near to end of episode 1.

First about her arrogance in general. I made a post to state my opinion that her arrogance is not pointless and reasonless. Swampstorm did me a reply and digged into the question much furthur. He educated me that even though she tends to behave arrogantly, however, she is aware of it and never lets it go out of control.

Spoiler for original posts:

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

But while she may come across as arrogant, she pulls it off in a slightly self-depreciating way. If you take Sheryl's remarks to the director about using her song for the movie, she initially pretends as if she's indignant, and then switches gears and tells him that she knows that the song is unsuitable for the movie. There's a fair bit of this in the blog entries as well; she opens with an outrageous statement, and then retracts it and says how she really feels. It seems like she's concious of her tendancy to come across as arrogant, and actively tries to deflate herself. She's surprisingly grounded, for one who exudes an air of such confidence.

As for why we don't mind her specific action at the end of ep 1. First, I'd like show you a post of mine about her preference of relying on others.

Originally Posted by herbert

There are two preconditions for her being willing to rely on others. 1) there is sth she can't handle well; 2) there is someone trustworthy can handle it well.

And I again found a Swampstorm 's post suming up the certain scenario much better than I ever can do.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

As Sheryl points out in episode six, it's Alto's job to pilot, and it's her job to sing. Sheryl didn't want to leave that stage; it was Cathy who dragged her off. But while Sheryl doesn't like it, she understands why it's necessary. It isn't within her ability to protect the people at that time - that's a job for the professionals. The best that a civilian without speaker pods can do is to evacuate.

Unlike to manga, the concert hall isn't in a mess during evactuation, so there is no need of her to tell fans retreat in order. What else she needs to do or she can do? Apologizing with a tearful face for her inability to do more? Other than explicitly showing her carings and worries over others, I don't see it adds anything. And if she does, you'd instead call her in fault of acting(IIRC, you have already accused her for same crime), and we Sheryl fans would find her less interesting as she would become an open book like Ranka, anyone can read into her with little effort. Things would either remain indifferent or turn worse.

Originally Posted by SymphonicRain

The real gem of Ranka IMO is watching her grow and progress. You just can't help but cheer for her at the sidelines.

It's true for you and your fellow Ranka fans. But there is some big problems for most people adopt it. People have seen this kind of gems too often (anime, manga, novel, movie, and TV series), and people are already too busy with cheering for Sheryl. That is why not many people dislike her, but not many speak for her at the same time.

[nines]

Originally Posted by herbert

[ Swampstorm 's post suming up the certain scenario much better than I ever can do..

Lies you explaned that perfectly and 100% with yah on it

[SymphonicRain]

Dude. I'm a Sheryl fan.

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

He done things for her he's done for no one else huh? So if Ranka just happens to lose a piece of jewelry and Alto returns it I guess they'll truly then be on even grounds.

It wasn't just about the earing. It was taking Sheryl to the Zentraidi farm and the mall. It was showing her a sunset after he saved her from the leap/fall of the school building. He's already advanced their time together with actions that he hasn't done for Ranka. EVERY action he's done for Ranka, is to build her confidence up about her wanting to sing, or further her career. The only romantic undertones that have been shown with Ranka and Alto, are from Ranka's side, not his.

Originally Posted by ani_d

I think this is more applicable to Ranka. Romantic or not, Alto's soft side always always comes out whenever Ranka's alone with him. He comes to her on his own free will even if all Ranka does is whine to him lol I really wouldn't see Alto's treatment of Sheryl any different than Mikhail's if the latter became a girl.

Alto's soft side after episode 1 are much more in line with an older brother's actions and reactions to a younger sister. Though mine died after she was born, I have babysat the daughters of a boss and a fellow co-worker, and some of that softness you see with Alto towards Ranka, I've exhibited towards them, and there was VERY obviously no romantic undertones or thoughts in the kindness. More like brotherly, or fatherly care.

I'm getting a little worn out arguing the same points over and over again. The ending might very well show a Ranka x Alto ending. As of episode 10 though, this race is Sheryl's to lose, and denying that, is being blind, or ignorant to what we've been shown so far with the differences in the scenes. Look at the adult interactions between Sheryl x Alto. Look at the big brother/little sister interactions between Ranka and Alto. After episode 1, once Sheryl enters the picture for real. Who gets the adult situations, the adult conversations, the adult interactions? Who stimulates Alto mentally, physically, emotionally?

I'm not asking which girl stimulates you, I'm asking who stimulates Alto... Look at it from his shoes if you can. (outside of his total lack of interest in relationships and females, and his girlish looks, he's alot like me even the love of flying that I had as a teenager(my father was a Navy pilot/Corporate Pilot)).