(L) Btooom!

[orion]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Is that the reason why YOU think Himiko deserved what she got? Because you left out some things.

-just making sure I'm reading you as you intended-

No. That is why I think the girls think that way.

Having peaked a bit ahead, I can only say that if Himiko was that naive to believe her friend and his fellow bandmates were nice guys (Yeah, she was.), then being on that island is going to be a wake up call to what a nice guy really is like. Compared to how girls get their vengeance nowadays, being sent to that island was prob the least violent act of retribution that they could have done.

Being naive about the consequences of your actions does not excuse you from responsibility for an adverse outcome.

So anyways, you guys really need to move on.

[chancs]

Originally Posted by orion

No. That is why I think the girls think that way.

Having peaked a bit ahead, I can only say that if Himiko was that naive to believe her friend and his fellow bandmates were nice guys (Yeah, she was.), then being on that island is going to be a wake up call to what a nice guy really is like. Compared to how girls get their vengeance nowadays, being sent to that island was prob the least violent act of retribution that they could have done.

Being naive about the consequences of your actions does not excuse you from responsibility for an adverse outcome.

So anyways, you guys really need to move on.

Highly disagree with the bold part. Landing up on an island where one has to kill not just one but seven??? ( killing even a one person is....)

It is not expected that you will fight a bunch of guys with just a teaser. What Himiko did by running is justified (iff she called for help afterwards). Just imagine what could have happened if even she was captured. The band guys would have exploited them again and again ( blackmailing and all...they were video-taping you know) Running for help does not mean that she did the wrong thing.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by orion

No. That is why I think the girls think that way.

Having peaked a bit ahead, I can only say that if Himiko was that naive to believe her friend and his fellow bandmates were nice guys (Yeah, she was.), then being on that island is going to be a wake up call to what a nice guy really is like. Compared to how girls get their vengeance nowadays, being sent to that island was prob the least violent act of retribution that they could have done.

Being naive about the consequences of your actions does not excuse you from responsibility for an adverse outcome.

So anyways, you guys really need to move on.

Nah, I get what you're saying this time. I still believe that ordering someone to make someone disappear from the world is the same as ordering a hit. A sane person would just say "I never want to see you ever again."

[orion]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Nah, I get what you're saying this time. I still believe that ordering someone to make someone disappear from the world is the same as ordering a hit. A sane person would just say "I never want to see you ever again."

Nah, sane people would have been more violent about it nowadays. It's high school after all.

[Dengar]

People killing other people is normal in high school? What kind of world do you even live in?

[Znail]

Originally Posted by orion

No. That is why I think the girls think that way.

Having peaked a bit ahead, I can only say that if Himiko was that naive to believe her friend and his fellow bandmates were nice guys (Yeah, she was.), then being on that island is going to be a wake up call to what a nice guy really is like. Compared to how girls get their vengeance nowadays, being sent to that island was prob the least violent act of retribution that they could have done.

Being naive about the consequences of your actions does not excuse you from responsibility for an adverse outcome.

So anyways, you guys really need to move on.

That is a pretty harsh thing to say, even more to rape victims. Talk about blaming the victim for being too naive. Yes, I do hope the girls will be more carefull, just like how Himiko are also more carefull around guys now.

Originally Posted by orion

Okay, just this once.

She knew at least one of those guys. That was one of the reasons the girls got to the party in the first place. So it was suppose to be safe. Not a party in which the girls get beat up, drugged and filmed being raped. And...Himiko was the armed one so if she was there then they could have thought they would not have gotten raped. Lives were ruined over a party. We don't even know how the parents faired at work over this. (We won't ever because we don't live in Japan.) A lot of anger is going to be directed to the other person who got them into this mess which is Himiko.

You guys really need to let go and move on.

The guy was her neighbor, that hardly makes them close friends, but she did know him somewhat.

No the girls got to the party because they asked Himiko to ask the guys if they could meet them. It's true that if Himiko had not been neighbor with one of the guys, then they wouldn't have been able to ask her, but would have had to ask another girl to introduce them. But it's also true that if they hadn't asked for it then their wouldn't have been a party in the first place. Himiko is only guilty of passing the word between the girls and the band.

Yes, it was supposed to be safe, but Himiko had no more clues to it not being so then the other girls.

Himiko wasn't armed, she started to carry the stun gun after this event.

A lot of bad fallout for sure, but that doesn't change who are to be blamed for it.

The plain truth is that they are at least as much to be blamed for this as Himiko, wich isn't a lot, other then being naive. And as I said above, blaming a rape victim for being naive is rather harsh.

The only key difference between the other girls and Himiko is that she resisted and thus got away. And they obviously resent her for that, wich most likely has as much due to do with guilt over not doing so themselves as anything else.

Ah, there is one thing that might make Himiko more responsible and that is that she is a very pretty girl and thus might have inspired the senpai to organise the rape party in the first place. But I refuse to put blame on an attempted rape victim just due to her being a pretty girl.

[bdragonomega]

Response to Znail's post, very lengthy:

Spoiler for lengthy:

Originally Posted by Znail

The only key difference between the other girls and Himiko is that she resisted and thus got away. And they obviously resent her for that, wich most likely has as much due to do with guilt over not doing so themselves as anything else.

The only key difference I see in that sentence is that she got away. It was never shown or stated whether or not the girls resisted. Even if they did, it is not guaranteed that they'd escape. Although, I do have to say, I personally think the guy himiko socked was the least thugish of the band members... that and himiko has quite the punch.

Originally Posted by Znail

Ah, there is one thing that might make Himiko more responsible and that is that she is a very pretty girl and thus might have inspired the senpai to organise the rape party in the first place. But I refuse to put blame on an attempted rape victim just due to her being a pretty girl.

That was added in on the anime (the emphasis on himiko's looks)... which makes sense to bring it up because we're in the anime discussion . And yes, to blame a girl based on her looks sounds rediculous to me and I would never ask you to do so.

Anyway, look at what happened to himiko after she was almost raped at the island, fear of men, so much that she chooses death instead. How might she feel or how broken would she be had she actually gotten raped?

We can try to end the discussions with a simple answer to this question, "For the girls, what is the most reasonable way that they could have thought to condemn himiko?" Remember, that the most reasonable answer may not be very reasonable at all. And this question, which has no morals involved, just how naive schoolgirls who were raped could blame another girl, we can easily agree to disagree on. This is often a very hard question, to understand the thought process of the opponent (often, at least in debates, it fun to be cynical about how they came to their conclusions haha... of course not serious debates ).

To me the answer is the rape. If we were to somehow be able to pluck these girls out of another dimension, where they were never raped, and then let them view what happened, as an outsider, like us, would they still blame himiko?

My answer is no. But because they were raped, their minds altered/broken, they see themselves as helpless victims and himiko as an outsider instead of a friend and fellow possible victim. Ill thoughts of how himiko could have betrayed them (maybe even set it up) would have been easily brushed aside pre-rape mindset, yet now its may seems to fit like a glove.

To me, they didn't blame himiko on one action alone nor were they looking to blame himiko. They were just thinking about the incident. There were monsters, the band members. There were victims, us. The monsters did stuff to us (remember that they never saw the struggle between himiko and monsters). And then there was himiko. How was she involved? When they thought about it (because at some point they probably would recount what happened), to me, they weren't trying to make himiko look like a villian, but because of the rape and their new grim perception of people, himiko looked like a villian. Their minds used every little thing that happened/didn't happen to himiko, that himiko did/didn't do and used it against her making her look like a villain to the girls.

So to me, that is the sad part. These girls were living the carefree, happy high school lives, yet broken due to this rape incident. Close friends wanting another close friend to disappear, that situation is cruel.

And so yes, it still doesn't excuse them for what they did, but this response does make me have sympathy for them (and himiko) and makes sense (to me). I seriously doubt himiko would want us to hate her friends for what they did nor do I think her friends would have wanted himiko to disappear. But stuff happened, and the people that wrote off himiko off were empty shells compared to the friends they once were. And its not like anyone chose to become like this, it was forced upon them.

Anyway, this is me trying not to think more ill of the rape victims, the girls. At least to me, it is clear that the anime/manga portrays himiko as a victim and thus she needs no defending and many of us just watching/reading will feel bad for her, she is a victim. But it may not do so, at least as well as done with himiko, to show that the girls were victims too.

Originally Posted by orion

So anyways, you guys really need to move on.

Never! I must continue to write essays!

[GoldenLand]

Spoiler for for length - about the discussion on the last two pages:

Originally Posted by bdragonomega

orion was answering the question, proposed by GoldenLand, "How is it not misdirected for her friends to blame her?"

I don't think orion ever stated orion personally thinks himiko got what she deserved. Orion, at least to me, has always been stating reasons as to why the girls might have thought himiko got what she deserved.

My question in context was:

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

what you seem to be saying is that Himiko is at least as deserving of blame as the rapists. Which is very strange indeed. And having said something like that, I think you ought to give a straight answer.

How is it not misdirected for her friends to blame her? I can see how they would get bitter and twisted and come to that conclusion, but I don't see why you would agree with them that it was correct to do so.

To re-state that, I was saying that it looked as if Orion personally thought that Himiko deserved what happened to her and was as deserving of blame as the rapists. And I asked why Orion thought that.

To which Orion replied with what appeared at first glance to be vile victim blaming:

Originally Posted by orion

She knew at least one of those guys. That was one of the reasons the girls got to the party in the first place. So it was suppose to be safe. Not a party in which the girls get beat up, drugged and filmed being raped. And...Himiko was the armed one so if she was there then they could have thought they would not have gotten raped. Lives were ruined over a party. We don't even know how the parents faired at work over this. (We won't ever because we don't live in Japan.) A lot of anger is going to be directed to the other person who got them into this mess which is Himiko.

But in response to another question, it seemed that Orion did not intend to say that they personally thought Himiko deserved it or that Himiko was to blame.

Originally Posted by orion

No. That is why I think the girls think that way.

Which would mean that there's been pointless discussion about something nearly everyone already understood and agreed about (that is, why the girls would blame Himiko), because some people including myself interpreted Orion's wording as personally blaming Himiko, and Orion didn't manage to clarify their meaning until now.

...But then, having said that, Orion then comes out with stuff which is apparently their personal opinion and which is victim-blaming Himiko after all.

Originally Posted by orion

if Himiko was that naive to believe her friend and his fellow bandmates were nice guys (Yeah, she was.), then being on that island is going to be a wake up call to what a nice guy really is like. Compared to how girls get their vengeance nowadays, being sent to that island was prob the least violent act of retribution that they could have done.

Being naive about the consequences of your actions does not excuse you from responsibility for an adverse outcome.

[Seihai]

Guys, cool down with some bombs. The horse looked dead to me numerous posts ago.

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[Wandering_Youth]

Does Natsume have a serious case of Autophobia?

[D-KLAC]

ep.7
so now give sakamoto try to reason with ralf rip-off but don't give blah cause is warzone & oh got back in kira's lawyer has gone crazy lawyer.

tried to escape to later follow with taira finger chop & kidnap himiko as well so now sakamoto to rescue.

get the girl rescue, kaboom the crazy lawyer, as for rip-off ralf give tough person all it take gas bomb melt him away with combine time bomb cue kaboom.

now sakamoto & himiko are but yer evil host is watching it with secret viewers seeing it all.

[chancs]

New episode and the prince goes to save his princess

[Kanon]

I don't get why mercenary dude didn't kill Taira while he was at his complete mercy. Nor why he didn't just kill Himiko on the spot rather than take her back to his hideout. I guess we can pin the latter one on his sadistic side, but I can think of any reason for him to spare Taira.

[Dengar]

I don't think he's a killer in the traditional sense. He seems to enjoy battle more than anything. And does not shy away from killing people who piss him off.

Taira wasn't doing anything. Not opposing him, nor trying to put up a fight.

I guess he figured he could just come back for him after all was said and done.


Re: The dead horse: We have to make absolutely sure that the horse cannot return as a zombie.

[Miraluka]

@Kanon: A challenger seeker, guess why he taunts the MC to get the knive.

[ookamigirl]

Sakamoto & Himiko opening was nice.
So that stupid lawyer Natsume teamed up with Miyamoto.
That interesting team was pretty dangerous.
I wonder if Himiko was lying about not being Sakamoto's Himiko.
Rescuing Himiko was quite an ordeal..

[Seihai]

I really like the fast pacing, it strengthens the non-stop action a lot and I think it's what this series is aiming for. Sakamoto and Himiko's relationship is so very lovely, it was kinda hilarious how they had that moment of embarassment seconds after the horror they went through.

Also for some reason Taira-san is less sympathetic than he was in the manga, or maybe it's just me but I just didn't feel much when he begged Sakamoto to stay.

Oh and I guess it's now safe to say that Tyrannos Japan is probably running this whole thing to score on stuck-up rich assholes with too much influence and/or immunity.

edit:
I find that Himiko's voice actor (Suzuko Mimori?) has been doing a great job thus far. Her voice has a kind of charm that doesn't really stand out but is really likable to me.

[Byakou]

The rape angle on himiko is annoying. It's a cheap and failed attempt at making her interesting. Her character is one-dimensional and cringeworthy. Pro tip for the author: stop watching hentai for character inspiration.
Sad thing is the show is pretty good apart from that one thing. However it comes up in every freaking episode.

[chancs]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I don't get why mercenary dude didn't kill Taira while he was at his complete mercy. Nor why he didn't just kill Himiko on the spot rather than take her back to his hideout. I guess we can pin the latter one on his sadistic side, but I can think of any reason for him to spare Taira.

He is enjoying his hunt for the kill. Too much killing in his life cracked his mind Taira was simply an annoyance to him and he knew that killing Taira will be like snapping fingers.

Spoiler for Himiko spoiler:

Himiko had betrayed him before when she was with that fatso, and thus the dude wanted to torture her, to hear her screams while begging for mercy, to bring her down to beg for death and you imagine all kinds of other things.

Originally Posted by ookamigirl

Sakamoto & Himiko opening was nice.
So that stupid lawyer Natsume teamed up with Miyamoto.
That interesting team was pretty dangerous.
I wonder if Himiko was lying about not being Sakamoto's Himiko.
Rescuing Himiko was quite an ordeal..

Spoiler for himiko:

About Himiko being Sakamoto's himiko, it will be revealed later. The betrayal

Originally Posted by Vanish

I really like the fast pacing, it strengthens the non-stop action a lot and I think it's what this series is aiming for. Sakamoto and Himiko's relationship is so very lovely, it was kinda hilarious how they had that moment of embarassment seconds after the horror they went through.

Also for some reason Taira-san is less sympathetic than he was in the manga, or maybe it's just me but I just didn't feel much when he begged Sakamoto to stay.

Oh and I guess it's now safe to say that Tyrannos Japan is probably running this whole thing to score on stuck-up rich assholes with too much influence and/or immunity.

edit:
I find that Himiko's voice actor (Suzuko Mimori?) has been doing a great job thus far. Her voice has a kind of charm that doesn't really stand out but is really likable to me.

Gosh, how many other companies are involved with Tyrannos Japan

[larethian]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I don't get why mercenary dude didn't kill Taira while he was at his complete mercy. Nor why he didn't just kill Himiko on the spot rather than take her back to his hideout. I guess we can pin the latter one on his sadistic side, but I can think of any reason for him to spare Taira.

I'm one of those who also thinks that it is indeed quite nonsensical for him to not to kill Taira right there. But like I mentioned in a much older post, one needs to apply a suspension of disbelief for quite a number of things in this series.