Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha ViVid Manga Discussion

[Justin_Brett]

And they pointed out that no, you can't. Whereupon you brought out your own opinion as fact.

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Except every time we DO give you actual answers, you just say "No you're wrong because I don't like it" and then move the damn goalposts to cover the fact we proved you wrong.

No I didn’t. When you call me wrong at times is because you are assuming a different position that I meant and I clear that fact by explaining further what I mean and keep my thoughts on the matter. Just because you point out that you don’t agree and have a different interpretation means mine is wrong and of course mine doesn’t make yours wrong I just don’t share that view.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Except if you remove or add elements you change the story. In fact if you add or remove the right element, you'll change the whole thing drastically, like you did with the Einhart/Sieglinde thing. Your "example" drastically changes Sieglinde's entire characterization and completely negates all the development Einhart's made thus far.

Agree that if you remove key elements you change facts but I didn’t remove any key elements at all there. In the end a lot of what happens is extra that really makes no difference. Sieg’s basic characterization might not even happen because all we learn is that she is timid, likes to eat a lot and is friends with “Victor”. Nothing really about her character at all. Einhart really has been stuck in the same as she started when she meet Vivio: still confuse about her past and present to the point Vivio didn’t really make any impact on her and just now she is picking up with that so why to spend so much time watching Einhart not changing at all and just jump to the change faster and develops her character in ways that matter.

[Nanya01]

Agree that if you remove key elements you change facts but I didn’t remove any key elements at all there.

Changing how characters meet and interact, Sansker, *IS* a key element in this series.

Or has your extreme dislike for this series clouded your memory?

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Changing how characters meet and interact, Sansker, *IS* a key element in this series.

Or has your extreme dislike for this series clouded your memory?

But I didn’t change how they meet. They first see each other as opponents and the people who they have to fight. Their interaction can fall in the same level as the tournament rather easy and fit the wholes if I was going with change just this detail. I can pretty much do the same with the others and not affect the overall conclusion: nothing really matters but that this new people are around now. You can’t really say I change story when there is none or that I make characters different when characterization is so basic and generic as it’s here. Their relationships are friendly and polite that will happen even if they didn’t fight at all because they are all good little girls.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sansker

But I didn’t change how they meet.

That's exactly what you did. Einhart and Sieglinde meeting one another in a tournament match results in a different development than what your example was, which is essentially Einhart committing an attempted assault on an innocent bystander.

Originally Posted by Sansker

I can pretty much do the same with the others and not affect the overall conclusion: nothing really matters but that this new people are around now.

Sure... if you completely ignore characterization of the characters affected, which matters a whole damn lot.

[Sansker]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

That's exactly what you did. Einhart and Sieglinde meeting one another in a tournament match results in a different development than what your example was, which is essentially Einhart committing an attempted assault on an innocent bystander.


Sure... if you completely ignore characterization of the characters affected, which matters a whole damn lot.

No it isn’t. What matters is that they fight in that fight they learn things and then talk, why they need to be in a tournament to do this? They could meet each other at the gym or something like that. If what matters is this fight, because here is when everything happens, it really doesn’t matter when it starts or how.

No. I am saying I can move things and still have the same effects. Really with the basic characterization the characters get in their fights des it really matters who they fight or when? No really. Corona could feel how she felt about being inferior all the way while fighting a complete stranger, for example. In the end this tournament and fights are bad set because they don’t feel like essential in any way. They are just flashy and try to compensate the lack of story with visuals.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Sansker

No it isn’t. What matters is that they fight in that fight they learn things and then talk, why they need to be in a tournament to do this?

Sansker, if you really believe that, then you really have no idea what Nanoha is about, do you?

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sansker

No. I am saying I can move things and still have the same effects.

You don't know what cause and effect means, do you? By moving things around you change the outcome. You won't get the same effect.

Originally Posted by Sansker

Really with the basic characterization the characters get in their fights des it really matters who they fight or when? No really. Corona could feel how she felt about being inferior all the way while fighting a complete stranger, for example. In the end this tournament and fights are bad set because they don’t feel like essential in any way. They are just flashy and try to compensate the lack of story with visuals.

Your example with Corona thus far is the only one that holds any weight because she's inferior in combat, so giving her different opponents won't change what she feels all that much.

Einhart? Not so much. For example, change her opponent to someone much weaker than her. She trounces them easily, leaving her unsatisfied in proving the worth of her Kaiser Arts. Thus, a change. Her situation in the tournament: Sieglinde sees her trapped in the past, fighting for it despite it being just a tournament and she tells her to let go of the past.

Einhart attacks her on the street? Sieglinde will just see her as a thug and probably kick her ass without trying to help her. Change.

You change one thing, you change its outcome. That's unavoidable.

[Sansker]

No, it isn’t. You assume you know how the character will react and you assume it will be different. I say it really doesn’t matter because cause and consequence doesn’t start until the fight itself begins so where the battle takes place doesn’t matter that much. They need to fight each other and in the fight learn about each other. That is it. But the problems of the manga go beyond that as I say the other page and I won’t feel like repeating. Change unimportant things won’t change the outcome. That has been my whole point how many unimportant things we have around.

[Justin_Brett]

There's more to a series with fighting in it than the actual fighting itself.

[Sansker]

Which ViVid doesn't have. Everything is an excuse to get to the next fight.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Which ViVid doesn't have. Everything is an excuse to get to the next fight.

You do realize that ViVid is a story about friendship, not just fighting, right?

[Rising Dragon]

... do you even read anything in this manga, Sansker? Read any of the dialogue AT ALL? Or do you just look at all the pictures? Because it sounds like you're just here for pictures, because you're completely fucking ignoring every other aspect in the manga and then you have the gall to call it terrible.

[Justin_Brett]

Including all those flashbacks that were pretty much entirely meant for world building and character development.

Okay.

[Nanya01]

Sansker, lemme put it to you this way.

Yours, Aki and Archon's view of Nanoha (post-A's) is as bad as my view on Naruto.

And, trust me, if I got going with Naruto, I don't shut up about it.

Rising Dragon can vouch for me, he's heard me go into rants about that series SEVERAL times now.

Sansker, you can say "I don't like Nanoha, I think it's poorly done" and there's not much we can say about that. That's subjective.

But when you try to explain why you feel that way subjectively with objective stuff, that's when you're going to get hammered.

[Sansker]

And I will keep insisting on my position. I don’t see why I can’t base my opinion on objective reasons as well. Even when I know is subjective. Everything is opinion base but I have my reasons, I will stay them and I will insist on defend my position when I feel is being either misinterpreted or just attack because it doesn’t seems to add up with the rest. But overall even those who say they like it are also being subjective so if we are going for that line we are just voicing opinions. Positive or negative doesn’t really matter. I already say what I think and why. So really there it is. Nothing you guys say makes me change my mind.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sansker

I don’t see why I can’t base my opinion on objective reasons as well.

Doesn't work when your "objective reasons" are fundamentally wrong.

[Nanya01]

Sansker, liking or disliking something is fine, that's opinion, but when you use objective reasoning and FAIL at it, that's when people get on your case.

You say changing things around would change nothing, that's flat out wrong. You say that there's no character development and that the whole manga is about fighting and nothing else? That's also wrong.

and when we point out that it's wrong, you keep changing what you said, which annoys the hell out of us.

And, if you've already made up your mind to hate the series, why are you even here?

Seriously, you can just go back to your conversations with people who call the series trash and stop bothering us if you're just going to be this way.

[Sansker]

And what if you are wrong? All along I have just heard I should change my mind because you guys think different and that is not how this works. Calling the other reasons wrong when some come out interpretation doesn’t really add up. I already say for example why the drama and the reasons of the characters seem weak and not well executed. But you never touch on that and just went with this thing about Ein and Sie which was just an example to illustrated how many things that happen don’t really add up all things consider.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Sansker

And what if you are wrong?

And what if I am? I doubt it, but what if I am? So what?

At the very least, I'm willing to back my opinions up with facts, which is something you seem to be unable to do without twisting them horribly.