Sword Art Online - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[Makender]

Originally Posted by eplipswich

Well, anyway, Asuna is actually the center of conflict for Sugu here, so saving Asuna is actually an important subplot, because without Asuna, there is no conflict, and without conflict, Sugu wouldn't even be in the picture.

There would be the love-triangle conflict involving Sugu even without Kirito needing to save Asuna, but whatever. I'm satisfied with how the argument ended.

[Hooves]

Just a question to those that say Sugu's relationship to Kirito is irrelevant and not important. Who would have helped Kirito during the earlier episodes of ALO when he found out that Asuna was trapped? He would try to hide from others about that fact, and if not for Sugu would probably have gone mad. How would you explain Kirito's personality in the first episode?

He didn't say anything to Sugu when she was going to practice. Just went straight into the game without a care, this arc helps show why Kirito was like that in the beginning. Sugu has an important presence in his life/personality because as said earlier. Neglecting Sugu has been one of his burdens, especially when he conveyed it to Silicia. Helping to amend that furthers his development in an upward direction. Now he just needs to find out what to do in this current situation.

Kirito is trying to accomplish two objectives, but was destroying one objective without knowledge. One was save Asuna of course, and another was make amends with neglecting Sugu. By being nice to her, and focusing more on conversing with her. The realization that Kirito was Kazuto, and Sugu being hurt. That showed that he didn't even know anything about her or what she was doing. When he heard about Asuna's imprisonment and the time limit. He went straight to the game, and focused entirely on that.

I'm not saying he was at fault for doing that. But the main problem was that neither of them knew they were playing games. Which makes me wonder what Kirito was doing while Sugu was in game world? Him going straight to the game, and this episode's solo attempt at the Guardians. Only goes to show that he needs someone's help. No matter how many times he dies, he will just keep going until he's broken. That's where I want Sugu to prove that she will still help him despite what's happened to her. Or for Kirito to step up and try to make final amends with Sugu about this whole love triangle ordeal.

The last paragraph is what I want to happen despite what everyone else says. Better to try to understand the perspectives of other characters. Then wishing they were gone like how I desperately wanted Yoshida in SnS to disappear in the first two seasons. But in the end, she turned out to be a good character that I liked.

*disappears*

[Makender]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Actually, I was referring to the portion of the story that did not involve Frodo at all - Rohan, Isengard, Fangorn, Gondor... you know, like a good 1/2 of the whole story, if not more. If LOTR was too long for you, let's try something more recent and shorter, let's say... Fate/Zero, which according to your logic must also be super-watered down as well, since a good chunk of the story had nothing to do with Saber/Kiritsugu either.

Epic Gilgamesh vs Super Bro Iskandar? tsk, nothing more than mere distraction right?


TBH, it sounds to me like you just want things to be as simple as possible.

I guess. The thing there is the multiple focuses for either LOTR or Fate/Zero doesn't seem to distract from the others. The focuses there were successfully separate from the other focuses as far as my memory serves me and thus served as useful to story and character development. Here in ALO the subplot of Kirito needing to save Asuna seems unnecessary if they don't pay it adequate attention to actually be useful to developing the story or characters.

I guess, for an example of story progression that I really liked is Trigun, where Vash was most specifically focused on through the story and was developed into a magnificent character.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Hooves

Just a question to those that say Sugu's relationship to Kirito is irrelevant and not important. Who would have helped Kirito during the earlier episodes of ALO when he found out that Asuna was trapped?

Apparently 'anybody' or 'everybody'... >.>

[ellessarr]

well for god sake this gona be mine last post here ^^
1 - fisrt i gona forget who i hate almost of the romance&drama&harem manga/anime/LN,
2 - i gona show what i get besides this on this episode and the whole arc

ok gona starting point who are the culprits for me:
1 - Author: to use a very old and bad drama clich used in many harem, love triangles animes like: ano natsu de amatero, nogizaka haruka, the new sakurasou pet no kanojo and others... the girl friend who fall in love with the main protagonist but is unable to express her true feelings and always expect the worst time (when everything is already lost) to confess, just for the sake of the drama and make ppls gona feel pit for her and even want her being a better option than the main girl

2 - suguha: (first forget who her fate was seted by the author and gona take her perspective like many ppls are doing), for be a shy girl too much and have expected the worst time to express your feelings, she already aware of kirito is looking for someone for the start(if i dont forget he told to her who he looking for someone...), she already aware of her feelings for him on second day and instead of try to give real signals of her feelings she keep then at bay in her how "fantasy world", another thing is the time kirito told too he dont have much time to spend this means she can't keeping waiting for days, weeks, months or years until him reallize her feelings for him or him fall for her, and the hints about have "another girl" in play was showed on her face she was too much childish to see then(yui calling kirito "papa" kirito saying who he "looking for someone" and when finally yui say "mama is close" she remained silent until the wrong time instead of try to talk with him, and kirito even being a womanizer/ladiesman he never showed any true signs of loving for her to give all tha hope, and dont come with the stupid she still a young girl because at last on mine country girls at start of 12 years already talking about courtship(dont exactly sex or kiss but the childshi courtship, like holding hands and watching things together), and in japan the legal age to be able to do sex if i dont wrong is starting at 13 years old(Today families are educated to not encourage children this age already want to do because of legal problems with the countries of the West and only have sex at ages slightly higher (if I mistake of starting 16), however still remains 13 years.) i'm not talking about sex but about she talking with him about her feelings instead of hiden then, and another problem is her "brotherhood" with him even if not related, at last on mine country not blood-related brothers falling in love is not something so "easy to happen" and even worsth when they lived together from the childhood the "tie of siblings" aways is more strong and they see each other just like siblings or friends is very rare see then falling in love.

pls dont hate me this is exactly what i get on this arc: a doomed cliche romance just for the "sake of drama" because the author is unable to make a better drama plot with the family problem without make the girl fall for him because the MC is a womaniser and awesome guy and him can't do nothing withou have a girl sighing for him in the shadows.

edit: when i talk about she "talk with him" i dont mean who the true of him being her brother can be brought too early, but if just started to "give some real feelings hints", like say to him who she starting to "like" to stay with him, who she start to see him in a special way... and bla bla bla, and dont come with "flrith with him in less than 3 day is impossible then fall in love is even worse.

[Hooves]

Its not like Sugu was there when Sugou told Kirito "Hey, I have your girlfriend trapped and I'm a very plain bad guy. Hahahaha you cant do anything and have to watch us get married." So how would she know he was even playing ALO? To her at the beginning, Kirito was some random dude and she didn't even know Asuna was imprisoned in ALO. It wasn't revealed why the SAO players were still trapped, let alone conversing with Kirito normally from time to time in the real world. Only Asuna seems to be the only leftover SAO player that wasn't stuffed into little cube things for tentacle-perverted scientists to poke at.

If Kirito told Sugu that Asuna was trapped inside ALO. Then things would be A LOT different. Hence why I detailed the "left in the shadows" part of Kirito and Sugu.

[dark998]

Impressive episode, those guardians really are much more difficult than I thought. Even Kirito with all his abilities and skills carried over from SAO ended up pulverized by them.

And about Suguha, well...the bomb finally exploded. I don't blame Kirito because he never gave her any hope (both in the real world and inside ALO). He already made his choice and picked the best girl a long time ago.

[ellessarr]

Originally Posted by dark998

Impressive episode, those guardians really are much more difficult than I thought. Even Kirito with all his abilities and skills carried over from SAO ended up pulverized by them.

And about Suguha, well...the bomb finally exploded. I don't blame Kirito because he never gave her any hope (both in the real world and inside ALO). He already made his choice and picked the best girl a long time ago.

thats the point in the end it is her fault for hiden everthing for herself in her "dream word" inside of her head, if she had been more honest and open about your feelings none of this would have happened, she get attached to kirito but make everthing to being only one side relationship, "i love you but i can't say this to you".

[ellessarr]

Originally Posted by Hooves

The problem is she's 15. It's not like she is a secretly disguised 42 year old woman that knows how to be honest with her feelings. Now you're just pointing out your own wants of "I just wish she was like this".

in my country at that age many girls already have boyfriend or talk about it and even being "shy", they can talk with the guy they love, this means who talk about courtship in a country where u are able to make sex at age of 13 years is very strange see girls who can't talk or need to hide her feelings at 15+ age, i dont think 15 years old being a age where love and courtship is forbbiden or some type of taboo.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by ellessarr

she already aware of kirito is looking for someone for the start(if i dont forget he told to her who he looking for someone...), she already aware of her feelings for him on second day and instead of try to give real signals of her feelings she keep then at bay in her how "fantasy world", another thing is the time kirito told too he dont have much time to spend this means she can't keeping waiting for days, weeks, months or years until him reallize her feelings for him or him fall for her, and the hints about have "another girl" in play was showed on her face she was too much childish to see then...

Honestly, if you assume that he's just some guy (which is what she thought), I think he might have thought it a bit strange and sudden for a girl to be confessing to him on the second encounter. I don't think she wasn't not flirting with him all this time, but she didn't want to be too forward either. She realized he was looking for someone important to him, but she didn't know it was his girlfriend. Yui's "papa/mama" wasn't necessarily proof that he was in a committed relationship because "kids say the darnedest things". Even getting that attached to him after three days was probably not something that would have otherwise happened were she not also trying to run away from her feelings from Kazuto.

So anyway... I really can't blame her at all for not being more forward. In the first few days, you're just trying to be friends with the person. Consider how long it took (and what it took!) for Asuna and Kirito to finally get together and their lives were on the line every day. The fact that had had a mission with a time limit doesn't mean "oh crap! I'd better confess now before it's too late!" If that were the case, it'd already be too late anyway (as it was).


(Unrelated -- I didn't expect that to come up in this context... )

[Rising Dragon]

And this is hardly the first time where such exhilarating moments have resulted in quick confessions of love from girls that age. Lizbeth's still got Suguha beat in that regard, remember?

[ellessarr]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Honestly, if you assume that he's just some guy (which is what she thought), I think he might have thought it a bit strange and sudden for a girl to be confessing to him on the second encounter. I don't think she wasn't not flirting with him all this time, but she didn't want to be too forward either. She realized he was looking for someone important to him, but she didn't know it was his girlfriend. Yui's "papa/mama" wasn't necessarily proof that he was in a committed relationship because "kids say the darnedest things". Even getting that attached to him after three days was probably not something that would have otherwise happened were she not also trying to run away from her feelings from Kazuto.

So anyway... I really can't blame her at all for not being more forward. In the first few days, you're just trying to be friends with the person. Consider how long it took (and what it took!) for Asuna and Kirito to finally get together and their lives were on the line every day. The fact that had had a mission with a time limit doesn't mean "oh crap! I'd better confess now before it's too late!" If that were the case, it'd already be too late anyway (as it was).


(Unrelated -- I didn't expect that to come up in this context... )

this is another point, if she need more time to express her feelings, then she can't blame him on the end because what i get from what u say is "she tried become her friend first but a almost love friend where he can't refuse her because she get heartbreak in less than 3 days because she "first tried being her friend", she expectated too much for him for the very limited time she have with him.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by ellessarr

in my country at that age many girls already have boyfriend or talk about it and even being "shy", they can talk with the guy they love, this means who talk about courtship in a country where u are able to make sex at age of 13 years is very strange see girls who can't talk or need to hide her feelings at 15+ age, i dont think 15 years old being a age where love and courtship is forbbiden or some type of taboo.

I'm not sure, are you saying that because girls tend to turn into sluts become sexually active at a young age in Japan that it's unrealistic for Suguha to be shy about her feelings?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by ellessarr

this is another point, if she need more time to express her feelings, then she can't blame him on the end because what i get from what u say is "she tried become her friend first but a almost love friend where he can't refuse her because she get heartbreak in less than 3 days because she "first tried being her friend", she expectated too much for him for the very limited time she have with him.

I think you may have misunderstood her outburst. She doesn't blame him, really. She was angry and frustrated at herself and her hopeless situation. If there's any mistake that Kazuto made it was the way he distanced himself from her in the past, even though he already felt bad about that and was trying to right that wrong. But she's not really angry that Kazuto was nice to her. She's upset at the fact that his being nice to her caused her to fall more in love with him even though she knows he's already in love with someone else. In other words, she's crying because she's in pain. In the end, this sort of outburst is only a good thing. She got it all out of her emotion, finally confessed her feelings, and now they can both process it and try to make a path out of there together.

(I know these sorts of arguments because I've been involved in all sorts of the same. Being hurt turns every issue into a verbal blade, and you just want to lash out at someone to get it all out. And then later you realize how dumb that was, and you have the real conversation you really wanted to have but couldn't.)

[ellessarr]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

I'm not sure, are you saying that because girls tend to turn into sluts become sexually active at a young age in Japan that it's unrealistic for Suguha to be shy about her feelings?

not exactly this but like i told in previous post, if she unable to express her feelings then she can't blame kirito for what happen because if u look at that POV was her fault for have too much expectatives for someone she meet only a few days, and if she trully love him like i told at last for not gona be "so to hard" talk a few about she dont need make a freak confession just try to know more him along the journey.

I think you may have misunderstood her outburst. She doesn't blame him, really. She was angry and frustrated at herself and her hopeless situation. If there's any mistake that Kazuto made it was the way he distanced himself from her in the past, even though he already felt bad about that and was trying to right that wrong. In the end, this sort of outburst is only a good thing. She got it all out of her feeling, finally confessed her feelings, and now they can both process it and try to make a path out of there together.

she get rejected a few words before she know the truth of him being her brother, when kirito say he have a girl waiting for him before him say "asuna", only after he say asuna she get the "double rejection", and shee blamed him when she say was him fault being "nice with her who made her faul in love for him" after he recover from SAO.

[Hooves]

*Reappears for one last draw*

Remember when Sugu saw Kazuto's face after saying that? She didn't blame him, more so she blamed herself for leading onto an illusion that she could forget by growing feelings for Kirito.. She was venting her own frustration at herself towards Kazuto. Which made her feel guilty and backed off to cry. This is where she blamed herself for not being openly honest with her feelings. Hence why she said that she "betrayed" her own heart. This will keep being repeated until it's understood fully.

It's like those moments in life where you get into incredibly depressive scenarios. That you just want to vent your frustration at yourself towards that target. Trying to find some way to alleviate the pain inside your heart. But ending up feeling even more guilty in the end.

*disappears truly to watch anime*

[Oroboro]

Luckily for Suguha, while it all happened in the worst possible way and she feels absolutely horrible, this is the type of heartbreak you can get over just by taking some time and crying a bunch, and then apologizing a bit later.

[ellessarr]

Originally Posted by Hooves

The problem is she's 15. It's not like she is a secretly disguised 42 year old woman that knows how to be honest with her feelings. Now you're just pointing out your own wants of "I just wish she was like this".

Already been over this

*disappears for next week*

just a small note for that quote:
My point for this is that using her age to explain why she is so shy is not valid for the country where she lives, is much more valid to say that it is a personal problem than "because she is only 15 years."

[Oroboro]

Originally Posted by ellessarr

just a small note for that quote:
My point for this is that using her age to explain why she is so shy is not valid for the country where she lives, is much more valid to say that it is a personal problem than "because she is only 15 years."

Statistics and ages of consent have literally nothing to do with individual behavior.

[Hooves]

I admit that I was in the wrong with age. I should have instead said that not everyone is like the people you know. *Was actually planning to edit that in secret* My apologies.