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Old 2014-03-23, 13:37   Link #34181
Renall
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Also, let's note that while Yasu's suggestion to Maria for coping with her feelings toward her mother weren't exactly healthy, encouraging her to imagine killing Rosa is a far cry from actually suggesting that Maria ought to murder Rosa. And Maria certainly loves her mother and doesn't want to lose her.

If imagining such acts as a coping mechanism gets people through a hard situation, that's one thing. But it doesn't necessarily mean they'd go so far as to act on it.
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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2014-03-23, 13:52   Link #34182
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
The problem is, if the text is to believed, her preparation for the plan is so throughout and meticulous that I think it goes against the notion that she cannot think straight at the moment.

She still has the intellectual capability to bribe the siblings into her murder scenario, threatened Natsuhi in a very messed up and carefully planned way, still have the ability to understand all the complicated situation all the adults have and secretly manipulate them, not to mention arrange the game and the puzzles, because killing people is never a simple job. Especially when many of them are capable of self-defence and have good intelligent.

Of course if it's in the writing only, maybe, still she has to have the ability to write a somewhat logical murderplan in the message bottle.

Now if she has such a good rational mind to arrange everything, why does it never appear to her how absurb the plan is? That, well, you're kinda arranging a mass murder of everyone, including a 6 years old child and a chef who has nothing to do with the tragedy of your life?
I think the trick is she obsessed over creating a murder scenario prior to planning to put it in action. She was obsessed with closed room murders and likely toyed with the idea of writing a mystery. Then all of sudden she could put that knowledge to use in real life to create a setting in which someone would help her.

Yasu has a taste for obsessing over things and creating intricate stuffs but I think prior to let's call it the realization scene, she never thought of using that knowledge in real life beyond playing some pranks.

Then it dawned on her how to use it. The fact that she was obsessing over it must have made it look easier than it would to us who normally don't spend all our free times wondering about closed room murders. A side of her should have believed she could pull it out if worse came to worse.

The other should have recoiled from it in fear and disgust. Are you insane? How can you think it?

Then, as she effettively lack in determination, she tried to put herself in a situation in which she'll be forced to do it. I still think that actually preparing the setting wasn't coercitive enough for her and she still wouldn't manage to do it.

We're shown in Ep 6 that when Beato tries killing Natsuhi she can't. She tries but in the end it's Battler who uses Lucifer to kill Natsuhi. She's there, telling herself she must kill her, that she'll lose her cahnce if she doesn't but... can't.

Yasu lacked the determination to pull it off. She can tell herself over and over she'll do it, she can try to do it but she won't manage to do it. The truth behind her is that even when she's so desperate deep down she can't do it. But others can and Natsuhi will be killed by Battler in the fantasy scene and by Erika in the game... doing what she couldn't and chosing Natsuhi because she chose her.
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Old 2014-03-23, 15:03   Link #34183
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Of course if it's in the writing only, maybe, still she has to have the ability to write a somewhat logical murderplan in the message bottle.
I think that is also something we should consider.
The cold-blooded witch Beatrice is something that exists in Yasu's stories and lives on in the forgeries written far after her apparent death. The same probably goes for the locked rooms, the cunning actions she pulled on the dim-witted adults, as well as Shannon and Kanon's heroicism.

Like other people already said, she prepared her stories, she likely even blew up the shrine in her spontaneous idea to test her powers...and we shouldn't forget that there are pages missing from this and the last chapter, so we are basing all this on incomplete information. I also suppose we will get more information with the next chapter, going up until 1986.

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If imagining such acts as a coping mechanism gets people through a hard situation, that's one thing. But it doesn't necessarily mean they'd go so far as to act on it.
And I think in Yasu's case the line between reality and fiction became increasingly blurred. So much that she failed to see when she was going too far. Even telling a little girl that imagining to kill her mother a thousand times is okay is technically going too far, making her a dangerously disturbed person...but I don't think she meant anything bad to actually happen to them.

I do hope that the next chapter, which I will hopefully finally be able to properly read again, will give us insight into what she was actually doing prior to October 1986...not Beatrice, but the real Yasu who had to have done something precise and either one or none of the 7 different things that we saw happening.
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Old 2014-03-23, 15:47   Link #34184
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I think that is also something we should consider.
The cold-blooded witch Beatrice is something that exists in Yasu's stories and lives on in the forgeries written far after her apparent death. The same probably goes for the locked rooms, the cunning actions she pulled on the dim-witted adults, as well as Shannon and Kanon's heroicism.

Like other people already said, she prepared her stories, she likely even blew up the shrine in her spontaneous idea to test her powers...and we shouldn't forget that there are pages missing from this and the last chapter, so we are basing all this on incomplete information. I also suppose we will get more information with the next chapter, going up until 1986.
On a sidenote I would really like to know when the Tori was detroyed as Umineko gave 2 different dates, December 1985 and Summer 1986. I'll go for Summer 1986 because it seems it's after George and Shannon went to Okinawa and they should have gone there in August 1986...

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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And I think in Yasu's case the line between reality and fiction became increasingly blurred. So much that she failed to see when she was going too far. Even telling a little girl that imagining to kill her mother a thousand times is okay is technically going too far, making her a dangerously disturbed person...but I don't think she meant anything bad to actually happen to them.

I do hope that the next chapter, which I will hopefully finally be able to properly read again, will give us insight into what she was actually doing prior to October 1986...not Beatrice, but the real Yasu who had to have done something precise and either one or none of the 7 different things that we saw happening.
Yes, Yasu is unconsciously pretty bad for Maria, encouraging her through a path that only give her more problems in the relation with her mother and with her schoolmates but she obviously doesn't mean any of this, actually she believes she's helping Maria... and what's worse is that neither Kumasawa, Genji or Nanjo try to set her straight.
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Old 2014-03-23, 17:42   Link #34185
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And I think in Yasu's case the line between reality and fiction became increasingly blurred. So much that she failed to see when she was going too far. Even telling a little girl that imagining to kill her mother a thousand times is okay is technically going too far, making her a dangerously disturbed person...but I don't think she meant anything bad to actually happen to them.
A lot of people harbor revenge fantasies. Sometimes people go so far as to imagine killing their boss or something. Is this healthy? No way. Is it a sign of stress that should probably be worked out in other ways? Yeah, probably. Is it somehow incredibly deviant? I don't know, it depends on the severity. Sometimes it's okay to get angry, and having an imaginary outlet is worse than some forms of coping but better than others (I mean, Maria displaying actual aggression toward her mother would be far less healthy for either of them). But much like the frustrated office worker probably doesn't have the time or money for therapy, neither did Yasu and Maria have much in the way of healthier outlets. It doesn't mean Yasu would commit murder for real any more than that Maria would actually try to kill Rosa.

If anything, I'd argue Yasu's problem isn't an inability to distinguish her more violent fantasies from reality, but an inability to believe her happier aspirations aren't fantasies. I mean, Beatrice isn't trying to blur the lines in all the scenes where she thinks about George and Battler. Instead, she's constantly trash-talking the notion that these happy possibilities are actually possible, pointing out the reality of the situation and suggesting that Yasu's actions make her undeserving. Beatrice is the one crushing Yasu's idealism, not reinforcing it in a way that draws her away from reality. Her desire to act out as Beatrice is a power display; it's an attempt to show that she can accomplish things. But it also obeys rules and is performed with some reluctance, which makes me think there's restraint intended there.

A desire to stop and a willingness to set fair conditions for it are hints toward a rational and probably reluctant mind. From a meta-literary standpoint, it wouldn't make sense to introduce those details to her characterization if the intended outcome was "And then she totally didn't get stopped and totally did go through with things." Similarly, setting up the whole meta-fictional aspect of the narrative as Battler vs. Beatrice and then pulling the rug out from under that would tend to reinforce some mitigation of Yasu's underlying culpability, even though we don't actually see that arising within the stories themselves.

---

Changing tack, I wanted to reexamine this part of ep8 because I dunno man. I'm not trying to add fuel to any particular fires, but an analysis of the Battler/Beatrice Oct. 6th segment just makes me think there's something wrong with the "standard" reading of it.
Spoiler:
I'm not entirely sure what this reading supports, exactly, but I thought it was a little odd when I went back over it.
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Old 2014-03-23, 19:23   Link #34186
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If anything, I'd argue Yasu's problem isn't an inability to distinguish her more violent fantasies from reality, but an inability to believe her happier aspirations aren't fantasies. I mean, Beatrice isn't trying to blur the lines in all the scenes where she thinks about George and Battler. Instead, she's constantly trash-talking the notion that these happy possibilities are actually possible, pointing out the reality of the situation and suggesting that Yasu's actions make her undeserving. Beatrice is the one crushing Yasu's idealism, not reinforcing it in a way that draws her away from reality. Her desire to act out as Beatrice is a power display; it's an attempt to show that she can accomplish things. But it also obeys rules and is performed with some reluctance, which makes me think there's restraint intended there.
In a way I'll say Beatrice is there to tell Yasu she can find happiness only in her fantasies and that in the real world there's no chance for her to be happy or to carry on her idealism. I remember the chats Beatrice and Shannon had in Ep 2 when Shannon decided to ignore Beatrice and then later on before Beatrice would kill Shannon.

Interesting enough, even if Shannon ignore Beatrice or goes against what she says she actually can't find solutions for the problems she points out.

Beatrice is sort of like the coscience of a poor student that tells him: 'you're dumb, you'll never manage to finish your studies' while we've Shannon answering: 'well, but studies aren't everything in life' while Kanon is 'let's not go to school, anyway we won't finish it'.

What about 'I'll study more so I'll get better results'?

Beatrice is basically always 'enlarging' the problem. As Shannon lied she CAN'T be loved. As Shannon's body isn't perfect she CAN'T be loved.
Shannon is avoiding the problem. Let's wait for Battler to be back. Let's wait for Battler to write. Let's George find out on his own. Let's wait till the family conference. Let's postpone. Let's fate decide.
Kanon is just giving up without trying 'I wish to be happy but it won't work so I shouldn't even wish'

None of Yasu's personalities is proposing an active solution.
Let's go search for Battler. Let's write/phone him. Let's tell George. Let's talk about all this with Kumasawa, Genji, someone. Let's decide.

She's so scared by failing she can't tackle the problem just surrender or ignore it.

Ironically, Battler is the opposite. Even if he can get incredibly depressed and surrendered more than once, after despairing he somehow manages to stand up again and try again. he even said that in a contest about endurance he would win and that he's used to be slammed on the ground and then getting up.

Character wise if I had to bet on one of the two deciding to murder people and managing to continue to keep the will to do it, it'll be Battler. He'll probably go in despair between a killing and the other but he'll stand and kill the next.

Yasu... she'll stand there and wait for the over to commit suicide before she'll shoot.

Although, if we go back to Ep 6 and to what Lambda said about bullies, I think Yasu really wants to be like Beatrice and be the one who bullies and not the one who get bullied. However, like when George in his childhood tried copying Battler to become successfull, I don't think Yasu can become Beatrice.

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A desire to stop and a willingness to set fair conditions for it are hints toward a rational and probably reluctant mind. From a meta-literary standpoint, it wouldn't make sense to introduce those details to her characterization if the intended outcome was "And then she totally didn't get stopped and totally did go through with things." Similarly, setting up the whole meta-fictional aspect of the narrative as Battler vs. Beatrice and then pulling the rug out from under that would tend to reinforce some mitigation of Yasu's underlying culpability, even though we don't actually see that arising within the stories themselves.
Well, we know she got stopped as the adults solved the epitaph. Honestly I would have found more interesting if she tried accomplishing something and was forced to realize she couldn't. Maybe in that case she could have realized she wasn't as much as a monster like Kinzo. As she got stopped by 'external forces' instead she can still believe she would be capable to do so and this could explain why Beatrice in the boat scene felt she was a murderer.

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Changing tack, I wanted to reexamine this part of ep8 because I dunno man. I'm not trying to add fuel to any particular fires, but an analysis of the Battler/Beatrice Oct. 6th segment just makes me think there's something wrong with the "standard" reading of it.
Spoiler:
I'm not entirely sure what this reading supports, exactly, but I thought it was a little odd when I went back over it.
It's more or less what I thought with some differences.
Honestly I assumed the ingot was metaphorical and Beato handed him a credit card more than carrying an ingot all the way. I mean... it's a cute souvenir but how would Battler convert it?

The quote about the motorboat always left be a bit confuse as it says Beato finds easy to drive it but she's not used to drive it even if she lives on an island and likely went with the shrine on a motorboat and probably had to use it more than once.
My guess would be she told him what to do but he was the one who actually had to make it work... which would explain the fact he wasn't used to it.

To be honest I can believe Yasu didn't feel like believing Battler. Beatrice has no reasons not to believe him, he gained her trust and solved her mystery but what about PrimeBattler?
If this scene is meant to reflect what happened to Battler and Yasu in Prime as well, in Prime Yasu might have doubted Battler.

Technically, while Battler might have decided to give up on his family name and even to his life with Ange (and maybe had entrusted her to Eva) in order to take care of Yasu who clearly had lot of problems, Yasu might have felt like she couldn't have the same faith in him.
MetaBattler apologized for not keeping his word to her in the past and tried to fix things later on, PrimeBattler might not have even realized he didn't keep his promise and therefore Yasu might doubt him to be able to hold his word.

As for the drowning I've been wondering if it was actually something metaphorical for something that happened later. If Battler and Yasu left the island together and hid in what will become Hachijo Ikuko's house, Yasu might have left without warning him, he might have thought the worst and might have gone after her and get involved in a incident in which he lost his memory... or better in which Battler drowned along with the memory of Beatrice.

Battler and Beatrice drown and what remain are Tohya and Ikuko who'll later on will bury those identities.

Interesting enough the book they wrote and that in the VN takes place on Beatnick island is in teh manga called 'Confession of the Golden witch' (Ange will even see it among the bottles in the library) and it ends with a tragic love scene at the end so... maybe it was just a tale?
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Old 2014-03-23, 19:51   Link #34187
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It could be. One major issue with it is that it really doesn't seem to square up with the entire Hachijou storyline, and it's difficult to try to just handwave that away as something else. However, there are still a lot of questions there that make it hard to know for certain.

Although I should point out that this scene is also immediately followed by a scene in which Ange gives up her money and connections to her family name, relocates to a new place, and decides to become an author. The weird synchronicity between Battler's apparent trajectory and Ange's trajectory in the Magic ending is just a little too perfect and I don't know what to think about that. It's almost as if one is a mirror of the other, and Ange's decision to write is seemingly arbitrary as well.

There's something about it that's nagging at me on an intellectual level, but I can't really develop a coherent explanation to unify everything. It's definitely a bit odd, if nothing else, that these scenes occur back to back, and that Battler is so insistent about something which appears not to happen in "reality." Because it doesn't, the thematic overtures appear pointless. But if they're taken as not pointless, they seem to direct toward some unresolved or ambiguous degree of additional interpretation.
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Old 2014-03-23, 19:56   Link #34188
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Changing tack, I wanted to reexamine this part of ep8 because I dunno man. I'm not trying to add fuel to any particular fires, but an analysis of the Battler/Beatrice Oct. 6th segment just makes me think there's something wrong with the "standard" reading of it.
Spoiler:
I'm not entirely sure what this reading supports, exactly, but I thought it was a little odd when I went back over it.
The problem I see is, that it would kind of nullify the characterization of Tohya we got in any scenes he featured. Why would he have amnesia? Why would he try to kill himself? Why would he keep away from Ange? What reason would there be for anything that we got told about him?

I agree that this scene still seems fishy and there is something up with it, but if I had to take the Golden Witch falling into the sea somewhere, I'd say Yasu threw the ingot in and Battler dove after it. You can read the scene that way and it would allow Yasu to actually "become" Ikuko at least a little bit more reasonably.
But it wouldn't really explain Battler's reaction at the end of EP5. If he saved her, why harp on about nor being able to save her?
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Old 2014-03-23, 20:36   Link #34189
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The problem I see is, that it would kind of nullify the characterization of Tohya we got in any scenes he featured. Why would he have amnesia? Why would he try to kill himself? Why would he keep away from Ange? What reason would there be for anything that we got told about him?

I agree that this scene still seems fishy and there is something up with it, but if I had to take the Golden Witch falling into the sea somewhere, I'd say Yasu threw the ingot in and Battler dove after it. You can read the scene that way and it would allow Yasu to actually "become" Ikuko at least a little bit more reasonably.
But it wouldn't really explain Battler's reaction at the end of EP5. If he saved her, why harp on about nor being able to save her?
I always think that scene means that the Batler personality is already dead in Rockenjima with Beato (you might call the real Yasu, or maybe her Beatrice personality, role playing or whatever it is). Therefore, Battler did not save her indeed (even if Yasu survived as Ikuko - a theory I don't agree and don't like)

Battler claimed that "you haven't commited any sins in our world" maybe, she did have fantasy (and written scripts too) about killing everyone, maybe she did organise the murder game in which she is a crazy witch commiting mass murder, and he knew that, but in the end she did not do that (got cold feet or a second though maybe?)

Really have no ideas about the parallel with Ange. This paragraph is odd indead.



Another problem that keeps bugging me, is the existence of Gohda.
Seriously, what is Ryukishi intending to do with his character?
Because, I really, really don't feel any significant theme he wants to put on this character. From what I have seen, I could only say that he's a poor guy who has terrible luck and applies for the worst job possible.
Or maybe it got cut? Just like Genji and Kumasawa seems to have more of them being in the cutting room.
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Old 2014-03-23, 20:49   Link #34190
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The problem is that if this scene were to have resembled something that actually happened, it's not set up thematically for repudiation of his claims. He's asking her to live, vowing that they'll spend a long period of time, and basically saying that he is sure that this will be the case. Under a face reading of the text, she basically goes "nope" and ignores him. We don't have a strong argument against his offer to her, nor do we have an adequate explanation for her refusal to trust. If we're reading it as the capstone to a tragedy, it doesn't take the actual form of one, and that's particularly strange.

We also have the curious problem of the progression of the scene. Beatrice begins to sink, Battler jumps in after her. He reaches her but can't hold on, they separate. Then suddenly Battler is back, even though Beatrice knows this is impossible. The two remain together and disappear together; we are explicitly told that they do not separate. Assuming Tohya is a real person and Tohya was Battler, then Battler would not have remained with Beatrice the whole way down because if he did then "fate" would've separated them again, even if only bodily (remember, Battler's memories still exist in part, so we can't even say Battler truly "died" here). So it seems highly probable that what we're seeing is somehow metaphorical for Battler; either the entire thing is or the second time he catches up to her is. Why then couldn't we assume the same for Beatrice? Especially since, unlike Battler, Beatrice explicitly claims to be an illusionary being. You could certainly call that Yasu's low self-esteem again, but what if it isn't?

At any rate, regarding his failure to save her: How does Tohya know he didn't save her, if he doesn't quite remember what happened? His belief may stem from the assumption that, not seeing her around, he must have failed her. He must've forgotten the promise. But that could be incorrect as an assumption for any number of reasons (the biggest being Ikuko = Yasu, not that I'm sold on this but that would be one possibility). Tohya forgetting Battler's promise isn't the same thing as the Battler of 1986 forgetting his promise. We don't know what the Battler of 1986 remembered or forgot.

For example, one could read the scene as follows: Battler and Yasu survive. Battler and Yasu begin to leave on the boat. Battler tells Yasu that she must live and that he will dedicate his life to helping her. Yasu believes she is not capable of living and tries to drown herself. Battler dives after her and catches up to her. Battler succeeds, returning with her to the surface, but the exertion has damaged him mentally. Yasu, rightly shocked by this, believes that Battler has essentially killed himself to save her life, and can no longer refuse to live. At that moment she has symbolically abandoned Beatrice (as she can no longer die alongside Beatrice), and Battler has gone with Beatrice into the Abyss (because Battler is no longer Battler mentally). In an ironic reversal, it's Yasu who ends up taking care of Battler, living toward her atonement as she was told she must do. It also tidies up the fact that Battler's memories are not truly dead; he wasn't trying to discard his personality, and his capacity to come to terms with his past is something that takes a lot of time (just as he told Yasu).

Now this has a few problems. It's not clear this matches up properly with how Tohya believes he met Ikuko, so if Yasu were Ikuko then some degree of deliberate confusion is going on; and if Yasu isn't Ikuko then we have no idea what happened to Yasu, which would be even more frustrating than the standard read. Additionally, I'm not sure I could easily read Ikuko's characterization as that of a person seeking atonement, and if Yasu isn't Ikuko then we don't know anything further about Yasu at all.

In any event, I find it hard to believe that Battler would give such a rousing plea to Yasu only to have her give up at the very moment she's been set free of her past. This is a problem even if the scene is a deliberate fantasy, a sort of final touch on the Battler/Yasu story provided after the fact. If you want to give the lovers their tragic suicide, you don't have one of them begging the other to choose to live, and if you want to write a happy fantasy where they survive the tragedy and move on with their lives then having one or both of them die isn't actually accomplishing that.

It is interesting that the scene, the story, is more or less represented by the rose. Which means Featherine is the one responsible for creating that scene, so the importance and veracity of that scene turns entirely upon what Featherine by all rights ought to actually know about the morning of October 6th, 1986. On surface appearances at least, the answer to that ought to be nothing. If that is indeed the case, the scene must be a deliberate fantasy with no particular basis in reality (in which case we ought to be looking at it solely for its symbolic content and meaning). If it's meant to be at least partially a memory, it seems like it can really only belong to one person.
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Old 2014-03-23, 20:54   Link #34191
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The problem I see is, that it would kind of nullify the characterization of Tohya we got in any scenes he featured. Why would he have amnesia? Why would he try to kill himself? Why would he keep away from Ange? What reason would there be for anything that we got told about him?

I agree that this scene still seems fishy and there is something up with it, but if I had to take the Golden Witch falling into the sea somewhere, I'd say Yasu threw the ingot in and Battler dove after it. You can read the scene that way and it would allow Yasu to actually "become" Ikuko at least a little bit more reasonably.
But it wouldn't really explain Battler's reaction at the end of EP5. If he saved her, why harp on about nor being able to save her?
My guess is: Yasu is unstable, Eva either believes them to be culprits or is willing to take care of Ange or both.
He thinks it's okay to leave Ange in Eva's hands and take care of Yasu but then something goes wrong and he loses his memory. He starts a new life with Yasu, now Ikuko and things seems to work only... he starts remembering but the fragments of memories he gets scared him at first.
He rejects them. Yasu's torn, she believes if he'll remember she'll lose him but at the same time she's more stable and figures that it's fair if he wants to go back to his sister, that it would be better for him to remember and stop being scared by his past. Maybe it'll be a relief to her as well, not having to pretend to keep that huge secret anymore.
Anyway, in her typical way she doesn't tell him the truth but let him figure it out abandoning herself (and him) to fate again.
However first Tohya reacts in the worst way to the return of his memories and ends up having an incident and then didn't really realize she and Yasu are the same person, he even think she is to blame for the incident that lead them to meet and think he lost her and only later he connects the dots which can be ironically represented by the duel between Erika and Beato about who should be his wife in Ep 6. Has he been trapped by Erika and sort of forced to marry her with a trick so she could use his gameboard? Or is his partner Beato reborn and they could spin tales together?

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It could be. One major issue with it is that it really doesn't seem to square up with the entire Hachijou storyline, and it's difficult to try to just handwave that away as something else. However, there are still a lot of questions there that make it hard to know for certain.

Although I should point out that this scene is also immediately followed by a scene in which Ange gives up her money and connections to her family name, relocates to a new place, and decides to become an author. The weird synchronicity between Battler's apparent trajectory and Ange's trajectory in the Magic ending is just a little too perfect and I don't know what to think about that. It's almost as if one is a mirror of the other, and Ange's decision to write is seemingly arbitrary as well.

There's something about it that's nagging at me on an intellectual level, but I can't really develop a coherent explanation to unify everything. It's definitely a bit odd, if nothing else, that these scenes occur back to back, and that Battler is so insistent about something which appears not to happen in "reality." Because it doesn't, the thematic overtures appear pointless. But if they're taken as not pointless, they seem to direct toward some unresolved or ambiguous degree of additional interpretation.
Honestly I think that Ryukishi should have developed the Hachijos better and that there's a chance he'll do it in the manga. It's clear that there are many weird things about Ikuko, starting from how she picks up Tohya to how she apparently doesn't seem to look her age or so Ange said but it's all left to speculations.

So I definitely hope the manga will better expand the ending.
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Old 2014-03-24, 10:29   Link #34192
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Assuming Tohya is a real person and Tohya was Battler, then Battler would not have remained with Beatrice the whole way down because if he did then "fate" would've separated them again, even if only bodily (remember, Battler's memories still exist in part, so we can't even say Battler truly "died" here). So it seems highly probable that what we're seeing is somehow metaphorical for Battler; either the entire thing is or the second time he catches up to her is.
Well, even though Tohya remembers Battler's memories, he says he can't accept them as his own. He views Battler as a different person, which (always in context to the entire personality-death logic) sort of makes him another person with Battler's mememories, so the Battler persona is pretty much dead.

Interestingly enough, this seems to be a parallel to Beatrice's "death" in EP5. Featherine says in EP6 that "This Beatrice will never be revived" but then... is. Chick-Beatrice is a different person because she has entirely different experiences than the original Beato's. Later on however, she does ackquire these, but this does not qualify (by personality-death-revival always) as the old Beatrice being revived, because that way there would be contradictions with the red. This might as well be read as a hint for what happened with Battler.

By the way, your analysis is pretty interesting, it had never occured to me that Beatrice's suicide might be personality death as well. I really dislike the idea of Yasu=Ikuko to be honest, because as mentioned earlier she doesn't really seem like someone who is trying to atone for anything, mind you, she is so self-centered that she kinda gives off the exactly opposite impression.

However, it would be another story if, for example, Beatrice and Battler both "die" as personalities, but then by some sort of accident they get separated. Battler's amnesia would make more sense that way. The question is, though, what happened to Yasu?

Also, isn't it very curious that Ikuko ended up in posession of Eva's Diary? Ange obviously learns the truth by reading it, but then what does she do with it, and how does it end up in Ikuko's hands?

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Another problem that keeps bugging me, is the existence of Gohda.
Seriously, what is Ryukishi intending to do with his character?
I heard that he was planning an affair between Gohda and Natsuhi (it could have sort of been hinted by their brief interaction in EP1) but the whole idea was discarded later on. Probably because Ryukishi seems to like Natsuhi a lot (I really don't know why...)
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Old 2014-03-24, 22:39   Link #34193
ndqanh_vn
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By the way, your analysis is pretty interesting, it had never occured to me that Beatrice's suicide might be personality death as well. I really dislike the idea of Yasu=Ikuko to be honest, because as mentioned earlier she doesn't really seem like someone who is trying to atone for anything, mind you, she is so self-centered that she kinda gives off the exactly opposite impression.
Yes, I don't like that theory too. I know some people wish that Yasu got a somehow happy ending with Battler, but Ikuko really did not give out any atone vibe, or anything to show that she's also suffering because of the incidents like Battler and Ange, whose life are practically destroyed forever thanks to it.

And yes, she's self-centered, unpleasant and arrogant to the point that if she's Yasu, it bugs my why Yasu could live a life without remorse or without caring what happened to Ange...But again, Yasu really hated Ange huh?

Personally I prefer Yasu dead.

I hope that if Ryukishi did not give any more hints on the manga supporting that wacky theory YasuIkuko. But the only thing I know about Umineko is, when I though things couldn't get any worse, it always did.

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I heard that he was planning an affair between Gohda and Natsuhi (it could have sort of been hinted by their brief interaction in EP1) but the whole idea was discarded later on. Probably because Ryukishi seems to like Natsuhi a lot (I really don't know why...)

Well, I like Natsuhi. I like all the woman in the Uroshimiya too (except Kyrie, but we did not know much about her unfortunately). Their worries and concern, their bad side and good side are portrayed more realistic, more relatable and more tragic than anything about Yasu in EP 7 could be, in my opinion. The same thing, the adults romance is very much better written than the children's alter-egos threesomes... It's one thing I always like about Umineko, sometimes Ryukishi could build very good characters, especially female one. Unfortunately, Yasu is a serious miss for me.

The reason I asked that question because looking back, all characters are connected to Yasu;s tragedy, or the overall fucked-up situation of the family somehow. (Even Hideyoshi could be explained that he's used to show the gentler side of Eva and her complicated relationship with her own family) But Gohda...is just kinda there. His character's utterly redundant. They could use Kumasawa for a chef and get rid of his characters just fine. That makes it even sadder, because at the end, he seemed to be just one unlucky guy got caught up in a tragedy that is totally unrelated to him.

And that's why, in my opinion, whatever excuse Yasu got when she decided to nuke everyone (if she ever did), the fact that she included an innocent bystander into her plan is still hard to overlook.
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Old 2014-03-24, 22:59   Link #34194
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Godha is more or less a very unfortunate walking clue.

He's not harboring any deep secrets, and he's not part of any conspiracies unless placed under what is implied to be extreme duress. From a writers perspective, it makes sense to include someone like him.

In EP1, Godha helps reach the corpse quota early, allowing more important characters to get screen time.
In EP2, the contrast between Godha's near-screaming and Shannon/Genji's eerie calmness after Zombie-Kanon attacks is a huge tip off.
He shows you that Shannon / Kanon sometimes have a stressful time at work, without having to divulge anything before 1984. His TIP suggests that the servants are used somewhat politically by the members of the household, as he's the only person Krass / Natsuhi personally hired. The angle of "not trusted by Kinzo" strengthens the illusion that Kinzo is even still alive. His presence also allows the servants to not be unanimous in their acknowledgement of Beatrice.

It kinds sucks for Godha much more than the other servants, because from his perspective he just went to work one day, shit got wierd, than everyone exploded to death, but his presence does allow Ryukishi to inform the overall situation better. It's occasionally been discussed whether Ange has singular right to the Truth or not, since at least Natsuhi, Nanjo, Kumasawa definitely have surviving relatives as well, and Godha mother might be out there greiving her heart out, and stuff.
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Old 2014-03-25, 04:13   Link #34195
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And that's why, in my opinion, whatever excuse Yasu got when she decided to nuke everyone (if she ever did), the fact that she included an innocent bystander into her plan is still hard to overlook.
Yasu is not trying to atone, nor does she think what she is doing is justified. No one accepts the excuse. Murder is murder. But the tragedy around her character is real and I feel sorry for her. Same way I feel sorry about everyone who died. No one deserved it.

And Yasu's character is the reason I love Umineko this much to be honest. She's interesting, she's selfish, she's human, her emotions are mad and deep. But she's not the only one. Eva, Natsuhi, Rosa and a lot of adults are also very well written. I've been reading a lot of negative opinions about Ryu and his works here, but apparently it was good enough to have us all engage in discussions about the said work.
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Old 2014-03-25, 07:13   Link #34196
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The same thing, the adults romance is very much better written than the children's alter-egos threesomes... It's one thing I always like about Umineko, sometimes Ryukishi could build very good characters, especially female one. Unfortunately, Yasu is a serious miss for me.
Hmm... I consider Yasu to be very relatable as well, at least to some extent because everything that happens to her is always over the top for her to, but writing-wise, it is true that the adults are much more fleshed out and realistic. Probably because Chiru was so sloppily written. I mean, you can see how much work and brainstorming Ryukishi did for Umineko by reading EP1, there are so many ideas and so many characters and concepts that it's inspiring. That all dies out in Chiru.

It also happens that waters are so muddied around Yasu and her character that we just had to guess tons of backstory (which at least was confirmed in the manga). Maybe if we were given more information about her and her life, or if Chiru had been handled more carefully, she wouldn't feel that alien.

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But Gohda...is just kinda there. His character's utterly redundant. They could use Kumasawa for a chef and get rid of his characters just fine. That makes it even sadder, because at the end, he seemed to be just one unlucky guy got caught up in a tragedy that is totally unrelated to him.
I pretty much agree with Kealym, Gohda's character becomes a lot more interesting if seen in that light. But, his character development kinda died out somewhere in the middle of the Question Arcs, kinda like Kumasawa and Genji, persumably because they don't have the thighs to pull of a magical Angle Mort uniform.

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And that's why, in my opinion, whatever excuse Yasu got when she decided to nuke everyone (if she ever did), the fact that she included an innocent bystander into her plan is still hard to overlook.
Gohda's presence there that day was probably arranged by Natsuhi and Krauss, because he would be the best distraction for the adults as he is good in entertaining guests. Yasu is completely resigned to her fate, so she probably decided it was Gohda's bad luck to get caught up or something.... which doesn't really make her less of an asshole, but just sayin'...

On that note, I would have really liked to see an affair between him and Natsuhi, it would really give a chance to add some depth to both characters (and clearly, Gohda is in dire need of it).

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Yasu is not trying to atone, nor does she think what she is doing is justified. No one accepts the excuse. Murder is murder. But the tragedy around her character is real and I feel sorry for her. Same way I feel sorry about everyone who died. No one deserved it.
I think the problem most people have with Yasu is that she is so desperate for sympathy and understanding while she doesn't seem to sympathize with others at all. Which is actually a problem if she really is the culprit. It sort of is understandable, as she never really got any sympathy except from imaginary friends, but suddnely starting to see other people as potential sacrifices is not exactly just being bitter....
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Old 2014-03-25, 07:42   Link #34197
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Yasu is not trying to atone, nor does she think what she is doing is justified. No one accepts the excuse. Murder is murder. But the tragedy around her character is real and I feel sorry for her. Same way I feel sorry about everyone who died. No one deserved it.

And Yasu's character is the reason I love Umineko this much to be honest. She's interesting, she's selfish, she's human, her emotions are mad and deep. But she's not the only one. Eva, Natsuhi, Rosa and a lot of adults are also very well written. I've been reading a lot of negative opinions about Ryu and his works here, but apparently it was good enough to have us all engage in discussions about the said work.
Well, I think Yasu is a hit or a miss. And to me, it's a miss because I feel her situation is "too much angst filled up". Just like Bern once said, when you put too many tea leaves in a cup of tea, the taste become so horrible you cannot even drink it. Moreover, for such a complicated situation, Ryukishi's handling of her character development is quite sloppy. So much information is lacking, to the point that I cannot understand her morality, her sanity or her intelligence anymore. Eva, Natsuhi and Rosa's situation is handled with a level of subtleness that makes me feel like I could easy see those situation in real life, imagine their emotions and sympathize with them. And their action is logical. For Yasu, we still don't understand why she jumps from a meek girl/boy into the one who might have planned a mass murder (even in theory)

And trust me. I did love Umineko. I might still love it even now. Yes, it's a crazy ride. Yes, it's insane. Yes, in the end it's a slow motion trainwreck. Yes, it's a case of the author intending to do so much and then falling miserably. But I won't forget that I used to love it, the journey was so damn fun.


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Hmm... I consider Yasu to be very relatable as well, at least to some extent because everything that happens to her is always over the top for her to, but writing-wise, it is true that the adults are much more fleshed out and realistic. Probably because Chiru was so sloppily written. I mean, you can see how much work and brainstorming Ryukishi did for Umineko by reading EP1, there are so many ideas and so many characters and concepts that it's inspiring. That all dies out in Chiru.
The true feeling of me might be...disappoinment? Because since the premise, I could already see that: Yes, this could be great. This could even become a masterpiece. But at the end, it kinda falls apart everywhere. It cannot become the masterpiece it could have been. Similarly, I read 1Q84 by Haruki Murakami, and while I think it is a nice book, I still find it disappointing, as Murakami did not achieve much in this book (and I think he could have done a lot more) I think Renall or somebody have said in their review: Type-Moon takes mediocre concept and executes them right, and Ryukishi comes up with some really creative and inspiring concept, but he cannot use them to their full potential.

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I think the problem most people have with Yasu is that she is so desperate for sympathy and understanding while she doesn't seem to sympathize with others at all. Which is actually a problem if she really is the culprit. It sort of is understandable, as she never really got any sympathy except from imaginary friends, but suddnely starting to see other people as potential sacrifices is not exactly just being bitter....
Trust me, in the end, if Yasu is really the culprit, the ones I'm sorry for the most is definitely not her, but some chef who was caught in that madhouse.

Everyone else is in pain. Everyone else is struggling with their life. But they are trying to live. To love. To continue walking with their loved ones. And somehow they all died because of a teenager who cannot sympathize with anyone, who keeps preaching about love while executing actions that is totally the opposite of love...It's a sad story. It makes me even angry.

So, I hope she's not the culprit.

And therefore, I'm in the camp that believes she only planned a murder game. Or she planned a mass murder, but got some remorse and did not execute it at the end. Not "I gave them the gun and they killed each other because I'm so stunned with my pain." Not "I continue to live on as the arrogant and unpleasant Ikuko after direcly or indirectly caused that tragic incidents."

Because if she's the real culprit, I cannot accept that I'm supposed to sympathize with her, no, I might even refuse to sympathize with her, however hard the text is telling (screaming) me to do.

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Old 2014-03-25, 16:29   Link #34198
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Maybe it's just me but, in case Ikuko= Yasu I fear we're mixing the meta, prime and the gameboards too much.

Let's start with the gameboards. Even if Yasu is the culprit on them it's highly unlikely she killed anyone on Prime so all she has to atone for is to dream of doing so, feeling seriously tempted to do so and setting 7 ADULTS in a situation in which they forgot they were adults and relatives and started waving guns around with horrible results.

Honestly it wasn't smart of her to show them the guns while they were like that but she's a troubled teenager and they are adults and THEY should have known better. They didn't just kill themselves for money necessary to their survival, they had more than enough for it even if they contented themselves with the credit card.

They just fell prey of their own greed and general disliking for each other.

Personally I think Eva has much more to atone than Yasu.

And now let's move with the Meta. The woman that we see that looks like Ikuko in Ep 6 and part of Ep 8 isn't Ikuko but Hachijo Tohya or, if you prefer, Featherine in her human form.
They're diffirent people. They even had different speech patterns.

I wouldn't judge Ikuko through her, it'll be like thinking that Genji acts like Ronove... even if the two might have something in common.

And now on Prime. We really have little info about which we can judge Ikuko. Basically all we know from her is she's living secluded writing tales she doesn't let anyone to see and taking care of Battler/Tohya.

We don't really know if she's doing something to atone or not, if she had done something to atone and now she thinks she had done enough, if she believes that just taking care of Battler and not letting Ange know of what her parents did is her way to atone.

One of the things I hope the manga will develop more is Ikuko because she's just mostly undeveloped in the VN, expecially if she's not Yasu. If she's not Yasu she seems mostly a plot contrivance to help Battler/Tohya to live hidden and become a writer. If she's Yasu at least she has reasons to pick him up and to hide him in a house bribing doctors and not really warning the police about his presence.
She also can fill all the holes on the info Tohya/Battler should have about that day making Ep 7 not just a speculation from Tohya or something Bern digged up from Yasu's grave but the real retelling of her life.

As for Yasu not offering understanding to others, to be honest at first Yasu tried to offer understanding to other people in all the relationships she had. But as she feels she doesn't get it... well in the end she decides they don't deserve understanding either.

Think at how she relationated with Asune and Berune. In a way she was their superior as she was there by a longer time and therefore responsible for their actions but she was trying to be gentle with them but her attempts were waved off. Probably Asune and Berune didn't feel like having a not particularly bright child acting as their superior and found annoying how Yasu told them the do and don't, no matter how gently she could tell them.
So she got feed up and pranked them and the worst part is she got exactly what she wanted.
Being gentle and understanding didn't work while scarying them to death with the tale of a witch gets them to do what she asked them to do.
If this pattern kept repeating and by scaring people she could get what she couldn't by being emphatic to them, it must have felt okay to threaten the adults with Beatrice so that they would listen her since otherwise they wouldn't.

Sure, she theoretically could have done it with her authority as the head, sort of, as she now has it, but she's not used to use that sort of authority. Not only with Asune and Berune she wasn't capable to impose but, even now that she's older, she ends up being looked down by Gohda. She volunteers to help him and he... pushes his work on her often putting her in troubles.

Yasu got to a point in which she had enough, like Ange when she screamed to the Seven sisters to kill her classmates. The fact that Ange wishes them dead, the fact that she even will consider later on that she could have killed them secretely and blame the Seven Sisters makes Ange such a horrible person?

Yasu was dealing with different issues, all right, but they all pile together and in the end she lost the ability to be 'understanding'. She'd been living with the Ushiromiya for 10 years getting very little of it and we don't know how much she got of it in the orphanage and, if this wasn't bad enough, she's being tossed a huge amount of problems all together while she was already in a depressed state.

It's not surprising she breaks down... and yet we can't prove that Yasu in Prime harmed the family more than Ange did her classmates. Or Maria did with her mother.

In the end Battler (and indirectly Eva) told us she never killed anyone. So really I've a hard time judging her as heavily as if she had willingly murdered anyone.
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Old 2014-03-25, 23:05   Link #34199
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As for Yasu not offering understanding to others, to be honest at first Yasu tried to offer understanding to other people in all the relationships she had. But as she feels she doesn't get it... well in the end she decides they don't deserve understanding either.

Think at how she relationated with Asune and Berune. In a way she was their superior as she was there by a longer time and therefore responsible for their actions but she was trying to be gentle with them but her attempts were waved off. Probably Asune and Berune didn't feel like having a not particularly bright child acting as their superior and found annoying how Yasu told them the do and don't, no matter how gently she could tell them.
So she got feed up and pranked them and the worst part is she got exactly what she wanted.
Being gentle and understanding didn't work while scarying them to death with the tale of a witch gets them to do what she asked them to do.
If this pattern kept repeating and by scaring people she could get what she couldn't by being emphatic to them, it must have felt okay to threaten the adults with Beatrice so that they would listen her since otherwise they wouldn't.

Sure, she theoretically could have done it with her authority as the head, sort of, as she now has it, but she's not used to use that sort of authority. Not only with Asune and Berune she wasn't capable to impose but, even now that she's older, she ends up being looked down by Gohda. She volunteers to help him and he... pushes his work on her often putting her in troubles.

Yasu got to a point in which she had enough, like Ange when she screamed to the Seven sisters to kill her classmates. The fact that Ange wishes them dead, the fact that she even will consider later on that she could have killed them secretely and blame the Seven Sisters makes Ange such a horrible person?

Yasu was dealing with different issues, all right, but they all pile together and in the end she lost the ability to be 'understanding'. She'd been living with the Ushiromiya for 10 years getting very little of it and we don't know how much she got of it in the orphanage and, if this wasn't bad enough, she's being tossed a huge amount of problems all together while she was already in a depressed state.

It's not surprising she breaks down... and yet we can't prove that Yasu in Prime harmed the family more than Ange did her classmates. Or Maria did with her mother.

In the end Battler (and indirectly Eva) told us she never killed anyone. So really I've a hard time judging her as heavily as if she had willingly murdered anyone.
I don't believe that she directly killed anyone, too. And I hope that's not the case. But at the end, she really did plan something, and play some part in the incidents. What is her plan? Which part did she play? How much was she responsible for the tragedy? So many thing is lacking there....And therefore it's hard to form a solid opinion of her. Which is irony, because she's the one the text keeps telling us to try to sympathize.
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Old 2014-03-26, 16:14   Link #34200
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I don't believe that she directly killed anyone, too. And I hope that's not the case. But at the end, she really did plan something, and play some part in the incidents. What is her plan? Which part did she play? How much was she responsible for the tragedy? So many thing is lacking there....And therefore it's hard to form a solid opinion of her. Which is irony, because she's the one the text keeps telling us to try to sympathize.
I fear the tragedy can't be used to form an opinion over her as in the end she likely didn't manage to do anything.
At best knowing the details of the tragedy might help us to form better opinions on Rudolf and Kyrie (did they really murder everyone else in cold blood?) and on the others (did they manage to do something? where they actually doing something so that Kyrie and Rudolf felt the need to kill them? was one of them try killing the others as forgery of purple logic might imply?).

Yasu becomes a catbox the moment she's stopped from committing murder. We'll never know if she was capable to pull off her plan and shoot at people and likely she'll never know as well so if to form a judgement on her you need to know if she's capable of murder in cold blood... well you've to figure out by yourself this one.
She surely devised a plan to murder people but she was conflicted with it and set it up so she could be stopped... and in the end we'll never know if, hadn't no one stopped her, she would have managed to carry on.

The manga clarified well the details of her inner state and her inner conflict. I think at this point we can understand her situation and why she thought it was okay to ask for help in such a twisted way.
She was living a nightmare, she was under serious stress, she wasn't capable to ask for help in a normal way and only knew unhealthy ways to deal with her problems.

So I'm not saying I wouldn't want to know more about the tragedy because I want... but unless something spectacular happened during it that involved Yasu, I don't think knowing the details would change much my opinion of her. In the end she likely was reduced to merely an observer of the tragedy, a Lion forced to watch the 'show' by Berncastel. So I don't really think that to know the details of the tragedy would change my opinion on her.

... unless something big we weren't told about happened, that is. But I don't really think that would be possible.
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