Romance in Code Geass (take 4)

[zongetsu]

Originally Posted by lolipopo

I really think it's quiet the contrary. Lelouch would have felt even more guilty to have push her to give herself to him like that and he would have return as Zero and finally at Zero requiem to atone his sins.

Dying is not the way to atone for your sins. To live is. When you die, you let everything go however to live and feel the consequences of you choices is the true way to atone.

you cant say that lelouch lived to die. He would be contradicting himself. Did you not watch r2 ep 15?

"A life that just has death is too tragic"

He wouldve been living for the sake of dying...yeah. Contradiction. THen he himself said in R2 ep 21 when charles and marianne were trying to stop time

"even so, i desire a future!"

if you want most of the dialogue here

Spoiler:

C-Foolish lelouch! The power of kings cannot defeat the gods!
L-This isnt about winning. This is a wish! Yes...right now, this moment i know myself. Gods! The Collective unconsciousness! *god glows* Do not stop the progress of time!*nothing happens*
C-Theres no way it can work, on gods...on humans themselves.
L-Even so, I desire a tommorow! *bam..double geass*
*god gets a geass insigna, the thought elevator falls apart*

yes...i desire a tommorow. Why would he want to die? Note he did not create Zero Requiem yet. Sure he couldve still wanted to change the world, but what happens after that? I mean, look, lelouch is a smart guy, if he could live, why not choose to live? Look at suzaku, they were in the same boat and we all know he was alive. They were planning to do the same thing no?

"you will do it no? both of you" -CC r2 ep 22

Yep, this super "stagetic" plan was to destroy and recreate the world. Why would it end in their deaths?

"there is no victory for those who cannot use their masks" -Schneizel

He needed not to die in Zero Requiem, but to make sure all the people of the world witnessed it. It was a symbol of change. Did you not see who killed him? It was Zero. If he had died any other way, its effect wouldve been lost. Zero, hero of justice kills evil tryrant emperor Lelouch VI Britannia.

[morbosfist]

You misinterpret his meaning. He meant that for life's only purpose to be death is too tragic. Zero Requiem achieved much more through his death than the death itself. There was a greater meaning to that finality, which is not contrary to Lelouch's philosophy. You take what he says and turn it inward, contrary to the meaning in the very scene you quote.

You've proved nothing, only regurgitated the same flawed nonsense. It ended in his death because death was a necessary component.

[bladeofdarkness]

dude is dead
its been stated over and over again
dead
D.E.D
dead
no ifs no buts no maybe's
dead
he is not alive with C.C
dead
he is not hiding somewhere
dead

[yvj]

Ahoy Generic thread discussion,

Though i do find the topic at hand very interesting.

[zongetsu]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

You misinterpret his meaning. He meant that for life's only purpose to be death is too tragic. Zero Requiem achieved much more through his death than the death itself. There was a greater meaning to that finality, which is not contrary to Lelouch's philosophy. You take what he says and turn it inward, contrary to the meaning in the very scene you quote.

You've proved nothing, only regurgitated the same flawed nonsense. It ended in his death because death was a necessary component.

Are you sure? CC only lived her life to die. That is what he meant by it. Living just to die is too tragic. Relate this to himself. Even if Zero Reqiem achieved more than his death, wouldnt he STILL be living for the sole purpose of dying?

To you its like "im going to live long enough to kill myself so i can change the world with my death." =sole purpose, his own death

He died to atone for his sins...you make it look like he didnt want to live.

Yep. All humans desire a tommorow, if he had the opportunity why wouldnt he take the chance to live? His death was not the nessessary component of Zero Reqiem. It was the symbolism of it. It was not needed for him to die, but to show that Lelouch the evil emperor fell to the hands of Zero, the hero of justice. This way the world could start anew. To that point, the entire worlds hatred was pointed at lelouch, and with one stab, it was destroyed. This way, the cycle of hate could no longer continue. They had put an end to the chain of hatred.

[zongetsu]

OH, sorry VYJ

I was led here by lolipopp supposedly to argue against all of you guys.

Sheeeshh...its just like i said to her...why the hell did you send me to a kalulu thread?

Besides, its on topic for it would be a CCxlelouch end had he survived and not a kalulu like everyone else says.

Oh, turn to your fabulous creators when you dont know what to say. Why does kalulu even exist? The creators said so. Why did this fad grow to its current size? The authors made it possible to.

Yep, you know why Lelouch doesnt like CC? They said so. But doesnt the anime portray them as getting closer in the final episodes? Compare their interactions within the final episodes to that of the beginning. Somethings up.

Seriously. In the months following right after the last episodes of code geass, Kaluluism was virtually dead, but was revived with "statements" from the authors.

And lelouch obviously didnt like CC at ALL. he just happened to be her friendly accomplance. What were they about to do in r2 ep 24 before Kallen interuppted? They were about to give each other a big handshake huh. That was the total mood of the scene.

Yep, when they have nothing to scream they scream "cannon".

if i repeated myself too bad, i didnt reread it.

[morbosfist]

Which means Kalulu is what the authors intended, while CluClu was shot down to the detriment of your own opinion. You hold on to your interpretation of the show and ignore the authors because you can't stomach their opinion, which holds more weight, not matching your own.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by zongetsu

Are you sure? CC only lived her life to die. That is what he meant by it. Living just to die is too tragic. Relate this to himself. Even if Zero Reqiem achieved more than his death, wouldnt he STILL be living for the sole purpose of dying?

To you its like "im going to live long enough to kill myself so i can change the world with my death." =sole purpose, his own death

He died to atone for his sins...you make it look like he didnt want to live.

Yep. All humans desire a tommorow, if he had the opportunity why wouldnt he take the chance to live? His death was not the nessessary component of Zero Reqiem. It was the symbolism of it. It was not needed for him to die, but to show that Lelouch the evil emperor fell to the hands of Zero, the hero of justice. This way the world could start anew. To that point, the entire worlds hatred was pointed at lelouch, and with one stab, it was destroyed. This way, the cycle of hate could no longer continue. They had put an end to the chain of hatred.

I understand where you're coming from, and I guess in a way it's all in how you look at it, but here's the main difference between C.C. and Lelouch.

C.C., having lived for hundreds of years, was absolutely sick of it and wanted the sweet release of death. There was nothing beyond that. She just wanted to die, and her death would've served no greater purpose than her own personal desire.

With Lelouch, yes he was planning his death, but it wasn't death itself that he wanted. His death was just a means to an end. That end being that he could unite the world, bring a new era of peace, and atone for his sins. There may have been other ways, yes, but in his mind it was the best thing he could come up with that would tie up pretty much all the lose ends.

Anything beyond that is really a matter of opinon or debate. That is, whether or not you think Lelouch killing was the right thing to do or if it atoned for his sins. Or if you think that maybe it's not entirely bad for C.C. to desire death (after all, all people have to die eventually)

[zongetsu]

Originally Posted by morbofist

Which means Kalulu is what the authors intended, while CluClu was shot down to the detriment of your own opinion. You hold on to your interpretation of the show and ignore the authors because you can't stomach their opinion, which holds more weight, not matching your own.

You wouldnt be amazed at how many people believed in Kalulu and was shot down, specifically by me, before any of the "official" material came out. Seriously, it was like Kalulu hunting season. It was especially killed by the guide books interpretation, Lelouch never loved CC, he never saw her as a lover or a mother. And then Kallens, she loves lelouch part and that the kiss, was oh so mutual.

What we saw, denied any presense of Kaluluism. Most of them backed down. You see, we could easily have said the kiss wasnt mutual because, he did not kiss back. It was like, he just took it in. Thats it. No feeling, no emotion, nothing. But no, it was "mutual" according to the authors.

Lol, at least i have an opinion morbofist, you just suck everything in. I made my analysis of what happened while you just rely on the authors for instruction. Believe what ever they say, arent you just a loyal puppet? Ill rebel if i want to, i know what i saw.

Ahh...CC

she was alone for so long living her hell known as eternal life. She wanted to taste death so bad and was given the oppurtunity, but what????? Rejected it. Why? Lelouch. He had given her her reason to live on. Like he said, ill make you smile. How do you make someone smile? make them happy. Her wish = to be loved. How do you make her happy? Love her. Its connecting....scary isnt it? Now, tell me, why would someone, who has lost so much, been alone virtually forever, still be happy in the end? Would she not continue her lonesome journey?? Wouldnt she seek death once more? The final scene=way too happy.

"geass is the power of kings, it will isolate you, but i guess thats a little wrong, nah lelouch?"

haha...she giggled. I liked that giggle. Shes happy, now what does that mean? Obviously lelouch did not die. And the oh so ambigous have in the camera sight for 10 seconds, zoom in on him, cart driver. Im sure he had no importance eh?

I thank you Nobodyman9 for somewhat understanding what i mean, however the point still eludes you. It matters not the reason for his death, but that he solely lived to die. You would be implying that everything he did, he did to die. That Zero Requiem was just another way to kill himself. Dying to save the world? Yep, that would be living to die.

You yourself sub conciously said it

Originally Posted by nobodyman9

With Lelouch, yes he was planning his death, but it wasn't death itself that he wanted. His death was just a means to an end. That end being that he could unite the world, bring a new era of peace, and atone for his sins.

You said it "atone for his sins". That is wrong and part of the reason why you guys all think he is dead. Live to atone for your sins, just like suzaku.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by zongetsu

Lol, at least i have an opinion morbofist, you just suck everything in. I made my analysis of what happened while you just rely on the authors for instruction. Believe what ever they say, arent you just a loyal puppet? Ill rebel if i want to, i know what i saw.

So let me get this straight. Your opinion is more valid than the author's intent because you made it? There's a fine line between an opinion and denial. That line is about ten miles behind you. You treat the author's opinion like a plague because they straight-up denied your interpretation of events, and now all you have left is to stick your fingers in your ears going "la la la la la" (wonder how many people will get that reference, while criticizing anyone who dares form an opinion backed up by solid facts. This is an argument you've already lost.

Originally Posted by zongetsu

I thank you Nobodyman9 for somewhat understanding what i mean, however the point still eludes you. It matters not the reason for his death, but that he solely lived to die. You would be implying that everything he did, he did to die. That Zero Requiem was just another way to kill himself. Dying to save the world? Yep, that would be living to die.

The point eludes you, actually. He didn't live to die, he lived to make the world a better place and death was what sealed the deal. It was a punishment he accepted as part of his goal.

Originally Posted by zongetsu

You said it "atone for his sins". That is wrong and part of the reason why you guys all think he is dead. Live to atone for your sins, just like suzaku.

We don't think he's dead, we know he's dead. Those author's you're so scared of listening to have confirmed it five times already. Suzaku was forced into living, because he cannot let himself die.

[SonOfHeaven]

Why talk about Lelouch being alive when he all saw him die by an huge sword and on scene. As well as being confirmed dead with no evidence in any scene he received any code. One can want him alive however he's gone until stated otherwise.

About kalulu. I didn't think it was dead within the series. Turns 19,21 and 22 were very important. Turn 19 speaks for itself , 21 showed the depth of her feelings for Lelouch. Turn 22 was in my opinion one of the interesting scenes during R2. I could tell Lelouch was hiding his feelings(bitten lip) considering his silence(No lies mean he was hiding the truth). About the kiss well I thought it was mutual given how the scene was presented(No surprised look during the kiss like the ones with C.C, no offence). I was disappointed in there was no gum line which was debated alot in the old romance thread.

I wish the staff would have given insight on what Lelouch was thinking about during turn 22 given he was OOC there. Kallen's poem was quite revealing though.

[zongetsu]

Lol...attack me seriously

Well, you see, when everyone first saw the ending it was a split at about 80% believe he was alive and 20% dead. Why? We had the facts from the anime. Just like the Kalulu kiss. If they didnt say anything about it would you have even thought it was possible to be mutual? He obviously didnt kiss back, no emotion, nothing, he was just like you, soaking it in.

Authors words were like a plague. After he said "yep lelouch died to shoulder the sins of the world" the shift of power switched to 60-40.

now its like 40-60.

Without the authors saying anything the masses moved towards him being alive and with CC. but their words ruined it all and, they, themselves contradict themselves.

Aye, website still says lelouch is alive lol? I love the character songs. What? PD?

and you know whats even cooler? They have a chance to redo what they did wrong! I bet you didnt know that they re did episodes 20-22? Now they can fix their "mistakes" lol? If that happens, then you would know we were obvioulsy right and then changed it to deny us.

Originally Posted by morbofist

The point eludes you, actually. He didn't live to die, he lived to make the world a better place and death was what sealed the deal. It was a punishment he accepted as part of his goal.

Quit saying what im saying seriously. I know he lived to die if he truly "died".

"he lived to make the world a better place and death was what sealed the deal"
(he lived....) how did he make the world a better place (by dying)

His death would make the world a better place no?
So he had to die no?
So he lived to die no?
Because his death would bring peace no?
Live to die? Quit helping me out here.

Why dont you get that...its so simple yet so hard for you.

Originally Posted by morbofist

We don't think he's dead, we know he's dead. Those author's you're so scared of listening to have confirmed it five times already. Suzaku was forced into living, because he cannot let himself die.

Do i sound like im scared of listening to the author? Seriously ive seen a lot of the stuff that has come out for code geass. I know what they have done so far. Do you think i would charge into an arguement unprepared? No. Why i dont believe the author...hmm...perhaps his words and actions contradict each other. Umm....they left ending wide open. Umm...he and taniguchi cant even agree with each other...uh...website?

Like i said before and numerous times, if they wanted lelouch so dead, why not make it obvious? Why the hell would the leave the final scene to CC? The crane? huh?

Suzaku can totally die. His geass just helps him "not" die. I would love to see him dodge a bullet.

and what did i say before all of this started?

I knew that you would turn and say "the authors said so". How about you grow a pair seriously.

[zongetsu]

ah....his silence was his answer

He was indeed OOC but for a reason

had he replied to her in anyway, she would question it. If he was like, i love you, she would follow him to the end of the world. If he said I dont like you, she wouldve been like "why? am i not good enough for you?"

So, no matter what answer, regarless of his feelings, truth or lies, she wouldve questioned it. Look at her, she was emotionally distressed seriously.

With silence she had no way to reply.

it was like a cold shoulder. His expressions, mood, and blank stare all added to it.

I saw no lip biting =/

silence doesnt always mean that your hiding the truth, perhaps you dont want to answer, or you dont have one to give.

First kiss with CC...of course he was suprised. Would she really lay one on him? I myself was suprised when i first saw it. But still, when it was over and the Gawain landed...we all saw him and her smiling. To which he said

"dont die CC"

it was "Kawaii" =D

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by zongetsu

Without the authors saying anything the masses moved towards him being alive and with CC. but their words ruined it all and, they, themselves contradict themselves.

That is not them contradicting themselves. What you interpret as an open ending is not what they intended to convey. This is not a contradiction, only a failure by the viewer to get the point.

Originally Posted by zongetsu

Aye, website still says lelouch is alive lol? I love the character songs. What? PD?

You mean this website which wasn't even updated for the finale and isn't maintained by Sunrise? Not proof. Character songs are not proof, either, and the Picture Dramas are all for events that have passed, barring the final one.

Originally Posted by zongetsu

and you know whats even cooler? They have a chance to redo what they did wrong! I bet you didnt know that they re did episodes 20-22? Now they can fix their "mistakes" lol? If that happens, then you would know we were obvioulsy right and then changed it to deny us.

Funny you should mention that. They did redo the scenes. In fact, we have a number of the comparison shots in the image thread. What's more, they fixed the Kalulu kiss to make it more apparent that he kissed back, and the scenes before it to make it more apparent that he's trying his hardest not to say anything. Your precious "mistakes" are actually being made more obvious.

Originally Posted by zongetsu

"he lived to make the world a better place and death was what sealed the deal"
(he lived....) how did he make the world a better place (by dying)

His death would make the world a better place no?
So he had to die no?
So he lived to die no?
Because his death would bring peace no?
Live to die? Quit helping me out here.

Your flawed logic only hurts you. He survived to make the world hate him, then to die at that specific moment to seal the deal. Before that he needed to live. He was not living just to die, he was living to make the world a better place and chose his death as the finale.

Originally Posted by zongetsu

Why dont you get that...its so simple yet so hard for you.

By the same token, I'd ask why you're incapable of looking at anything in any way other than black and white?

Originally Posted by zongetsu

Do i sound like im scared of listening to the author? Seriously ive seen a lot of the stuff that has come out for code geass. I know what they have done so far. Do you think i would charge into an arguement unprepared? No. Why i dont believe the author...hmm...perhaps his words and actions contradict each other. Umm....they left ending wide open. Umm...he and taniguchi cant even agree with each other...uh...website?

Yes, you do sound scared. You do everything you can to deny what's in front of your face to avoid the reality that your precious interpretation is wrong. The writer and director don't disagree with each other or contradict themselves. You just want them to. Even if they did it's the writer's intent that holds more weight, and he's pretty damn clear about it. I've already covered the website.

Originally Posted by zongetsu

Like i said before and numerous times, if they wanted lelouch so dead, why not make it obvious? Why the hell would the leave the final scene to CC? The crane? huh?

Getting stabbed through the chest surrounded by what would surely be an angry mob with his body in the custody of his enemies isn't obvious? Wow, you must be joking. C.C. words are in reference to herself, and the crane is a metaphor for the wish she was granted.

Originally Posted by zongetsu

Suzaku can totally die. His geass just helps him "not" die. I would love to see him dodge a bullet.

Stage 16 against Mao, Stage 23 offscreen against a Knightmare, Stage 25 against Lelouch, Turn 25 against another Knightmare, and he does it at point-blank range in a sound drama. Five different times, two against Knightmares for heaven's sake. Suzaku's superhuman, remember?

Originally Posted by zongetsu

I knew that you would turn and say "the authors said so". How about you grow a pair seriously.

This only proves you can't make a rational argument. You are in effect saying, "Stop quoting facts and disprove me with opinions." You can't deny the authors and thus you attack anyone who quotes them, afraid that the facts will destroy your already fragile position. Like I said, you've lost this argument. All you're doing now is trying to avoid the obvious.

[SonOfHeaven]

After Kallen asked him what's he plans on doing. There was an close up on his mouth. Looked liked an bitten lip in my opinion. Lelouch's silence still isn't an true answer(he was obviously sad). In order for her to live on. That's why he remained silent, he couldn't reveal himself. Even that's been confirmed by the staff, he was hiding his feelings. Kallen's poem adds to it as well.

Him being silent was his kindness to her. She would have followed him if he answered her. Him being silent for a character like himself is OOC. If he lied again, she would have left him. Given it happened before. He manipulates people with words and he chose not to. He definitely was hiding his feelings, seemed liked it to me at least. If he didn't asked for an detour to begin with she wouldn't have followed him given his actions during the meeting.

Also C.C kissed him both times in regards to his memories. Did she feel that way? That's up to your take on the character. Unlike Kallen or Shirley which were more obvious.

[lovecakecookies]

lol
this is the romance thread..

um wasn't it stated by one of the staff/writer? that Lulu wanted a tomorrow with Nunnally more than anything and C.C and Suzaku wanted to die more than anything
something like this? anyone remember?

however, they all got the opposite from what they wanted.... I guess that was one way they had to atone....

but back to romance.. meh.. thinking about it more... Lulu is still the biggest Siscon ever..none of the girls came close to her.. sigh..

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by lovecakecookies

but back to romance.. meh.. thinking about it more... Lulu is still the biggest Siscon ever..none of the girls came close to her.. sigh..

He got over it near the end there, being willing to kill her and all. Plus, Kallen got close, as Turn 11 indicates.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

After Kallen asked him what's he plans on doing. There was an close up on his mouth. Looked liked an bitten lip in my opinion. Lelouch's silence still isn't an true answer(he was obviously sad). In order for her to live on. That's why he remained silent, he couldn't reveal himself. Even that's been confirmed by the staff, he was hiding his feelings. Kallen's poem adds to it as well.

Him being silent was his kindness to her. She would have followed him if he answered her. Him being silent for a character like himself is OOC. If he lied again, she would have left him. Given it happened before. He manipulates people with words and he chose not to. He definitely was hiding his feelings, seemed liked it to me at least. If he didn't asked for an detour to begin with she wouldn't have followed him given his actions during the meeting.

Also C.C kissed him both times in regards to his memories. Did she feel that way? That's up to your take on the character. Unlike Kallen or Shirley which were more obvious.

Just to clarify something. We don't know Lelouch feeling for Kallen. All we know is that Kallen love him, that's all. It's really annoying to see some Lelouch and Kallen fan saying that Lelouch love her when they are nothing which prove it.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

Just to clarify something. We don't know Lelouch feeling for Kallen. All we know is that Kallen love him, that's all. It's really annoying to see some Lelouch and Kallen fan saying that Lelouch love her when they are nothing which prove it.

Strictly speaking, no we can't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. However, there is a pretty decent amount of evidence to suggest it could very well be true. You need more info, I'm sure a real Kalulu fan will be more than happy to oblige. They're much more "enthusiastic" than I am.

[SonOfHeaven]

Originally Posted by Kusa-San

Just to clarify something. We don't know Lelouch feeling for Kallen. All we know is that Kallen love him, that's all. It's really annoying to see some Lelouch and Kallen fan saying that Lelouch love her when they are nothing which prove it.

Of course we don't know his feelings. That's pretty obvious. I don't think I stated that Lelouch defintely was in love with Kallen. All I said he was hiding his feelings. For myself, from what I got from her poem(song,profile and the show itself) at least. Is that Kallen believes that Lelouch did love her from her POV(Is it true or not, who knows ). Just taking the scene itself and reading the her poem which reveals quite alot about the scene. Wasn't trying to be annoying(Going to other forums, kalulu fans do seem to have an reputation of being annoying lol), if I was then I'm sorry.

Being honest here, I just wish the staff would have revealed his feelings toward Kallen anyway. Given that falling in love with Lelouch was the center part of her development for R2. It was one of the climax's of her character development toward Lelouch to know his feelings toward her. The other being to understand who he was which we know she did.