Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon - General Discussion

[Kunagisa]

Originally Posted by Azuma Denton

Ah tsukaima...
Is it the same system with that little white fox and the one that fat guys holding during eps 2??

Adding to what everyone else has already replied. The ones at the end of Ep 2 and 3 are all summons (I am not sure if they're to scale though ...).


I think official reading is actually マウス/Mouse, though the kanji characters（走狗）sound more badass.

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Btw, sorry for my ignorant, but who are the TAN subbing group people keep mentioning?

Just to add to articuzwolf's post. TAN is the only official translation; I thought the Crunchyroll stream would be different but it's exactly the same ... except one week behind (wtf).

There is another who-must-not-be-named group that is very admirable and tries to translate this series (it IS somewhat improving by each episode though ...). For a heavy infodump series like this, you're bound to hurt more than help if you don't get at least 90% of the lines correct.

Most other translations steal from these two either by completely copying or slightly fixing the scripts, so even though it seems there are many groups, you really only have one choice, to which my response is same as these guys.

[Azuma Denton]

Woot?? Mouse?? O.o
Mouse in year 1400++ has that kind of ability that has put my wireless mouse into shame...


Err, another question...
(Sorry for having many question... )

Masazumi has been called "Seijun" on many occasions... So what does that means??
And what is the difference between Councilor (Toori's title) and President (old man's title)??

Thanks...

[Marcus H.]

Seijun is Masazumi's name spoken using on-reading instead of kun-reading.

正 - sei (on), masa (kun)
純 - jun (on), sumi or zumi (kun)

Her name, by the way, means "righteousness and innocence".

[Zetsuen_no_Myuu]

Are HorribleSubs not ripping from TAN anymore? I greatly prefer them over Commie since Commie makes some changes here and there that feels dumb down/needless liberal pickings.

[JediNight]

Augh. Kaioshin. I wasn't saying the total number of characters is too many to have. Eventually. I'm saying it's poor form to throw all 40 at people in basically 2-3 episodes. It's terrible writing akin to Kubo throwing all 26 reaper members at the reader at once in Bleach. When you weave say a blanket, you are adding to it over time, you don't get the entire thing in one motion.

And then introducing 3 separate subplots at once before the first hook even hits...

A better adaptation would have been to do it this way:
- Couple minute narration accompanied by epic music and visuals explaining humanity coming back to earth and having to mirror the world.
- Subsequent collapse of the mirror dimension and the war that Japan abdicates in, naming the TU and the major powers that come into play for the reactor part.
- Mention of Mikawa being the last ground settlement for Japan and the Musashi wandering.
- Date pops up and shows young Horizon and Toori and how she dies to the horse.
- Have Toori wake up from a daydream and show the current date. Skip over to showing P10s singing and doing her chores, etc.
- Introduce some of the important classmates with captions as they chat in class and maybe use the history lesson part for some other misc errata instead of a walloftext like it was.
- Talk about the spiriting away of the nobles along with the silly ghost hunt events at school.
- Intersperse with teaser scenes of the going down in prep of the reactor meltdown as the Musashi lands in Mikawa and all that stuff starts.
- End Ep1 with the start of the reactor meltdown with the giant energy beam into the sky as you cut to the different groups all looking up at it.
- Ending narration with the "this day would change their lives forever" or whatever.
- Ep2 and maybe into Ep3 would be the battle over the meltdown then.

The whole messing around with the class battle in Ep1 is unneeded to start. The part with Tauissant or w/e moving in with the one girl is irrelevant atm. Etc.

[Marcus H.]

^ That has been done dozens of times over. Yeah, it works, but it gets stale. Another important criticism with that approach is that it takes away the comedic side of Toori, focusing too much on the whole setting.

[JediNight]

You're complaining about "stale" in an anime? The Japanese retread cliches and tropes like none other. You can easily show his comedic side in Ep1 still. I wasn't about to write up a complete script, I just provided a quick overview. Instead they say the "their lives would change forever" at least 4-5x so far. Yet it still hasn't happened yet.

The problem so far is they haven't concentrated ENOUGH on the setting. Despite there being so much setting to explain.

And it's been done a lot because it works, and its good direction. You want them to do it haphazardly just to say it's different? ... That's like writing an essay and deciding you don't need a thesis statement or paragraphs, because those are used all the time and stale.

[Duo Maxwell]

But it works, at least for us. Ep 1 did pull a large amount of watchers, and those who are patient enough will stick around for the next 4 or 5 eps to get everything.

You can say it bad all you want. In the end all that matters is the sale and view number.

[articuzwolf]

Originally Posted by JediNight

yeah too long

TBH, I prefer the current version than yours...

Eps 1 is an introduction to each character abilities and what they are capable of, not just randomly throwing things to the audience

cutting that part away will only make people confused with diversity of characters in Toori's class and make things worse in the future

Originally Posted by JediNight

Instead they say the "their lives would change forever" at least 4-5x so far. Yet it still hasn't happened yet.

not even a single day has passed since the first episode, so yeah it still hasn't happened YET

Originally Posted by JediNight

Confession falls flat because we don't know the characters yet, etc.

hey guess what, two fabulous statements from the same guy

[JediNight]

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

You can say it bad all you want. In the end all that matters is the sale and view number.

I think we know by now that the Japanese are easily amused and settle for some pretty terrible shows. Show all the patience you like, that's fine. It still doesn't make the material adapted well. Merely that people are willing to tolerate the wait.

And sales have little bearing on the quality of a show. A lot of the best shows get mediocre sales because they don't appeal to the gutter fans of broadest appeal. Gundam Seed Destiny sold like 80k units per volume and it was terrible overall. Infinite Stratos is one giant cliche trope factory and it got like 40-50k units per volume.

[Aoi Toori]

Originally Posted by JediNight

I feel lost and they did a poor job of explaining the setting and that they believe it's the "end of the world" atm, etc...

sooo the point is? you didn't understand enjoy watching this anime? great then, I'm glad to know that.

Originally Posted by articuzwolf

TBH, I prefer the current version than yours...

I agree with you.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by articuzwolf

TBH, I prefer the current version than yours...

Eps 1 is an introduction to each character abilities and what they are capable of, not just randomly throwing things to the audience

cutting that part away will only make people confused with diversity of characters in Toori's class and make things worse in the future

Actually, I thought that JediNight's method would have been very good for the anime adaptation. It allows the viewers to understand the story better, instead of throwing in a lot of scenes that currently appear irrelevant and just goofy. The story is supposed to be deep, rich, and intelligent, yet the goofy parts just throws it off balance.

Yes, it has been done before, but for a very good reason: it works. It would have not turned off so many viewers scratching their heads trying to figure out what they have been watching for the past 4 episodes.

If not for some very generous posters on this forum, I would still be stiffled at what I am watching. A lot of the viewers do not have such luxeries, unfortunately, so it is understandable why they are frustrated. Again, it was a decision by the anime production team to use this approach, so they are responsible for the consequences, even though they have tried to make a valiant effort on such a challenging work of art.

[JediNight]

Yeah don't get me wrong. For better or worse the guy wrote like 6000+ pages so far. Trying to condense even a fraction of that into 24 episodes is an undertaking. Stay "too faithful" and it drags out and you go nowhere. Skip too much with too few episodes to use and you have something like C^3 where they have to jump ahead so much it becomes disjointed.

[Marcus H.]

It allows the viewers to understand the story better, instead of throwing in a lot of scenes that currently appear irrelevant and just goofy. The story is supposed to be deep, rich, and intelligent, yet the goofy parts just throws it off balance.

However, that's how the writer probably orders these events to happen. If we manipulate the events, they will provoke the disappointment of the fans of the light novels: "Hey, Toori should not be daydreaming in class! Hey, where's Oriotorai-sensei's "lecture"? WHERE'S THE LIGHTHEARTED SIDE OF KYOUKAISEN?!"

Take note that we viewers outside Japan are never considered a factor in the production of the series, and the Japanese appears to have no problems with the series; even the voice actors admit to have been immersed into the story. And for those Japanese folks who are still confused, there's an episode glossary in Japanese, just like in the Steins;Gate website.

[JediNight]

As I said before though -- you just can't do a straight adaptation on material this long. You would get through like a few hundred pages of material and the season would be over having covered like 5% of the story. Then what? Go read the LNs?

Basically this is an example of a series that caters directly to the fans of the LNs, with not much consideration made to new viewers. Similar to Idolmaster, Itsuka Tenma, etc. They bank on the reader-base buying into the series more than they hope to use the series to bolster LN sales.

[articuzwolf]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

If not for some very generous posters on this forum, I would still be stiffled at what I am watching. A lot of the viewers do not have such luxeries, unfortunately, so it is understandable why they are frustrated. Again, it was a decision by the anime production team to use this approach, so they are responsible for the consequences, even though they have tried to make a valiant effort on such a challenging work of art.

for some reason, I have to agree with this part of your statement, coz it's also applied to me (yeah they helped me more than once or twice in this thread)

But it is also true that if you really pay attention to the details through the episodes (with a good sub), you won't have that many questions as well...

and also quoting stuopidget's post

Originally Posted by stuopidget

Keep in mind the anime's made for Japanese audiences primarily, they don't really find it troublesome reading a few words online before the story.

with Japanese reference all over the place in this show, we (non Japanese ppl) do need to at least do some research...

but some people are too 'proud' with their incapabilities and choose to bitch instead of do some study

[ninja_pintu]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Actually, I thought that JediNight's method would have been very good for the anime adaptation. It allows the viewers to understand the story better, instead of throwing in a lot of scenes that currently appear irrelevant and just goofy. The story is supposed to be deep, rich, and intelligent, yet the goofy parts just throws it off balance.

Look, his method might have been better, but you have to understand that it would have completely changed what this series is. Even if the story is same, presentation can easily change a lot of things in a series. Sure it would have made it easier for some people(especially those who don't want to do any research prior watching the anime), but it would have lead to drastic changes in the overall mood of the anime. The first episode, was necessary to show off the personalities of many characters. Also it showed a part of nature of the anime. Like it or not, this show does have a goofy side to it and showing that can't be achieved by just showing idiotic nature of the main character. This show doesn't treat its large cast as just fodder and we should understand that.

And it should be clear by how the show is progressing that it is putting emphasises on character personalities and their backstories, also a little bit on the history of the world. The details of the setting is not being explained in the show itself and the show is expecting viewers who want to get familiar with the setting to do some research on their own. Which imo is the better way. Convoluted settings like these are better left to written medium. I just don't find visual medium to be cut out for such things.

Yes, it has been done before, but for a very good reason: it works. It would have not turned off so many viewers scratching their heads trying to figure out what they have been watching for the past 4 episodes.

Actually it is working even here. The problem for people who it is not working for is that they refuse to do any research and instead of trying to understand the show, they expect the show to spoonfeed them. This isn't the show where you can just sit back and enjoy, you have to use your brain here. And honestly, I find being hard to understand as one of the charms of the series.

[JediNight]

Too DEEP for me. Gotcha.

[Aoi Toori]

Originally Posted by JediNight

As I said before though -- you just can't do a straight adaptation on material this long. You would get through like a few hundred pages of material and the season would be over having covered like 5% of the story. Then what? Go read the LNs?

simple, just wait for the next season the be aired.

Originally Posted by articuzwolf

with Japanese reference all over the place in this show, we (non Japanese ppl) do need to at least do some research...

but some people are too 'proud' with their incapabilities and choose to bitch instead of do some study

Originally Posted by ninja_pintu

Actually it is working even here. The problem for people who it is not working for is that they refuse to do any research and instead of trying to understand the show, they expect the show to spoonfeed them. This isn't the show where you can just sit back and enjoy, you have to use your brain here. And honestly, I find being hard to understand as one of the charms of the series.

speaking of research, glossary for ep 5 are already up on the official website

[JediNight]

What next season? It's getting 2 cours aka "one season" of 24-26 episodes. The only other show Sunrise has ever done a S2 for is Code Geass. (Besides Gundam) Even if they would greenlight a 2nd season, that would air like 1-2 years from now, and take you up to what? 10-15% of the story?

It's like 3x3 Eyes getting 9 episodes that cover 3 volumes, when it ran 39 total. Or Bastard!! getting 6 episodes when it went like 40 vols.