(L+CR) Chihayafuru Season 2

[Grifis]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

But that isn't necessarily the core of his outburst when he himself thinks to himself "what if Arata does watch us play."

Chihaya/Arata might be a part of it but it is not the only part. Taichi's feelings about Arata are way more complicated than that. That is why I am saying it is not just simple jealousy & wanting to keep her away from Arata.

Although I am not saying Taichi is not jealous of what he perceives Chihaya's feelings for Arata to be.

"what if Arata comes watch us play......" is a reflection of his lack of confidence, inferior complex or whatever, that shaky feeling that Arata may witness that he still sucks at Karuta and he didn't want to be seen in that light, is what you mean?

But I'm saying the core of his onion is his complex about Arata/Chihaya relationship. Other layers like inferior complex and such pile on top of that but how he feels about Arata derives from how Chihaya feels about Arata and that is why it's the core. So his outburst follows that order too. People's feelings derives from simple things. Only others make it more complicated.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Grifis

"what if Arata comes watch us play......" is a reflection of his lack of confidence, inferior complex or whatever, that shaky feeling that Arata may witness that he still sucks at Karuta and he didn't want to be seen in that light, is what you mean?

But I'm saying the core of his onion is his complex about Arata/Chihaya relationship. Other layers like inferior complex and such pile on top of that but how he feels about Arata derives from how Chihaya feels about Arata and that is why it's the core. So his outburst follows that order too. People's feelings derives from simple things. Only others make it more complicated.

By why would Arata seeing him play karuta matter about his feelings about Arata/Chihaya.

It's a mistake to think that Taichi's only feelings for Arata stem from Chihaya because they actually don't.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Grifis

What Arata did has nothing with being "cool". He did what he believed was right. He didn't follow the rules therefore he must face the consequences. He wanted to take responsibility for his actions. He was doing the right thing, not trying to be "cool." Some people do things because it's right you know, not because they were trying to be "cool".

Shinobu-chan's words, not mine: "I don't know what you did. / But stop acting cool and lower your head! / Beg them to let you play!"

We can argue about how well the word "cool" translates the Japanese social etiquette and ethic Shinobu is talking about. But she has a point, don't you think? Insisting on one's punishment, impeccable propriety, doing the right thing--these are still ways of showing off, of acting cool, which end up sometimes hurting others (Shinobu in particular: "Can you not disappoint me any further?"), and oneself (Arata wants very much to play.)

Viewers may admire Arata for doing the right thing, Taichi for trying to become a person who doesn't run away. That's fine, and certainly part of the point of the series. But I suggest that Suetsugu is also slightly impatient with all this rectitude. Shinobu makes her point: sometimes one needs to stop acting cool. It's a good lesson for Arata. Taichi should learn it someday.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

It's a mistake to think that Taichi's only feelings for Arata stem from Chihaya because they actually don't.

Kirarakim is correct. Taichi's personal development arc, aimed at becoming a person who doesn't run away, stems directly from his memories of Arata calling him a coward. Chihaya and the romance figure only peripherally.

[DragoonKain3]

Move aside Taichi/Chihahaya, as this episode pretty much cemented ShinobuXArata as my OTP of the series. I think I've been trying to fight it for a while (trying to be partial to both ships), but the first thing that came to mind when Shinobu showed up at the window, looking menacingly at Chihaya? "Don't EVEN think about getting it on with Arata, you @#%@!"

Then when Arata broke the news that he wasn't gonna play? "Time to score brownie points!"

Then I got REAL worried when the enemy Karuta player likened Chihaya to Orihime, because then Hikoboshi would none other be Arata. I was so down... until MAJOR relief when the same guy said she was more like Bellatrix.

So yes, I know I'm looking much too deep into things, but the point is, I seriously can't help it. Looking for things that aren't there is the job desciription of a shipper, isn't it? After all, if Shinobu has been disappointed with Arata so far, then that means she has high hopes on him for a romantic reason right?

Ok I'll stop now. XD

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

It's amusing: Taichi is trying to become Arata, a person who doesn't run away, but Arata has to learn to stop being so cool, and run away when it's for the sake of karuta.

Arata does not run away. He stands for his principles, which might make him look cool to others (Shinobu, I'm looking at you). I think the main thing Arata has to learn is acceptance. He earlier learned to accept his grandfather's death. He just learned to accept team play. Now, he needs to learn to accept that he cannot let his ideals and stellar character get in the way of what is truly important, which is karuta in this case.

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

After all, if Shinobu has been disappointed with Arata so far, then that means she has high hopes on him for a romantic reason right?

LOL Shinobu only so far shows that she wants to play with someone challenging, and who she sees as an equal who loves karuta like she does. Arata is her rival, even if she is not his rival. Maybe something can develop later on, but nothing is in place just yet.

As for the conversation about Taichi and Chihaya, Taichi originally continued karuta is due to wanting affection from Chihaya. So in this regards, it has been about love before other circumstances. He has grown to love karuta, but love still dictates a large part of things.

Let's put it this way. If Chihaya had to suddenly move to the United States, will Taichi still have the same passion to play karuta as he does now, or will he start to delegate things to other members and slowly drift away? He loves karuta right now, but not as much as people give him credit for.

[garbage]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Let's put it this way. If Chihaya had to suddenly move to the United States, will Taichi still have the same passion to play karuta as he does now, or will he start to delegate things to other members and slowly drift away? He loves karuta right now, but not as much as people give him credit for.

which doesn't really mean anything and is pointless to think about. Karuta is now an integral part of who Chahaya is as a person. True, Taichi's love for Karuta began partly because Chihaya is there, but just as you can't separate Karuta & Chihaya why would it be so wrong for Taichi's love to be because of both?.You just can't pinpoint where one starts & another reason begins it's rather just one whole thing taken together. I say Chihaya is just one aspect of his love for Karuta.

So I say too Taichi loves Karuta very much, partly or maybe even mostly because of Chihaya, but it's not all of it, but can't be separated from it, and there's nothing wrong with that. Taichi loves Karuta more because of Chihaya at the same time he comes to love Chihaya more because of Karuta.

Think about this way then: if Taichi & Arata stopped playing Karuta would Chihaya still have the same passion to play Karuta as she does now? remembering that her biggest motivation is to play with those two at the highest levels.
How about (cross fingers) Chihaya dies? I believe there is a big possibility Taichi will continue, as a remembrance & to honor Chihaya.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by garbage

Think about this way then: if Taichi & Arata stopped playing Karuta would Chihaya still have the same passion to play Karuta as she does now? remembering that her biggest motivation is to play with those two at the highest levels.

Hm...I'm not going to agree or disagree with the idea that it is "her biggest motivation"...but the two people Chihaya most wants to play against at the highest levels at present are Arata and Shinobu.

Her desire for Taichi to reach A level wasn't primarily so that she could play against him (she does that every day anyway!), but rather because she wants Mizusawa to become a stronger karuta school and win the championship.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by garbage

You just can't pinpoint where one starts & another reason begins it's rather just one whole thing taken together.

The reason I even brought it up is that there was suggestion from others that the romance is just a peripheral part of Taichi since they believe his competitive nature with Arata and his trials with Karuta takes the majority of his being. However, I do not believe that is true, since my belief is that his jealousy is a major part of who he currently is as well as his motivation for playing is based more on Chihaya than it is on Arata or anyone else.

Originally Posted by garbage

I say Chihaya is just one aspect of his love for Karuta.

This is where I resoundly disagree with you. You are assuming that his love for Karuta trumps all, and everything else is just a part of it. Chihaya is not one aspect of his love for Karuta, but more Karuta is just one aspect of his love for Chihaya. It has developed more beyond that, but not beyond his love for Chihaya.

Originally Posted by garbage

Think about this way then: if Taichi & Arata stopped playing Karuta would Chihaya still have the same passion to play Karuta as she does now? remembering that her biggest motivation is to play with those two at the highest levels.

The answer to that is yes, Chihaya will still have the same passion. For her, Karuta is her life right now, so even without them, she will
continue to strive higher. There is still Shinobu, and if Shinobu is gone, there is still another challenger for her. It would be nice for her to play with Arata and Taichi, but it is no longer the only reason.

Originally Posted by garbage

How about (cross fingers) Chihaya dies? I believe there is a big possibility Taichi will continue, as a remembrance & to honor Chihaya.

True, there is a chance that he could do that, but that is in honor of her death, to try to continue what she accomplished and to reach her goal. Again, it is for Chihaya's sake he is doing it, not for himself.

[Kirarakim]

I think people misunderstand Taichi and his love for Karuta and Chihaya.

Taichi might not be as into karuta as Chihaya or Arata but that is partially because he still doesn't believe he can get to that top level. Chihaya's goal is the very top because she believes she can get there, Taichi doesn't see the very top for himself yet.

Also Taichi didn't just start to play karuta because of Chihaya, that is incorrect. He was playing since they were kids just like Chihaya but at the start of the series decided to not continue because "I will never be good as Arata".

However he ended up continuing to play and form the team at first because of his feelings for Chihaya, however through those feelings he has learned to love and embrace karuta again. He has already decided that he won't run away and give up even if he loses, but he still has a mental block that he himself can't reach the very top level.

So it's not that Taichi learned to love karuta because of his love for Chihaya, he learned to to not give up on it and to not run away (but obviously he still has obstacles to overcome).

So if Taichi doesn't end up with Chihaya will he lose his passion for karuta, no I don't think that will be the ultimate end of the story and I certainly do not think that is what the manga-ka is trying to say with his character.

[garbage]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

This is where I resoundly disagree with you. You are assuming that his love for Karuta trumps all, and everything else is just a part of it. Chihaya is not one aspect of his love for Karuta, but more Karuta is just one aspect of his love for Chihaya. It has developed more beyond that, but not beyond his love for Chihaya.

I don't assume that at all, makes me wonder how you can pull up such a statement from my previous sentence. I never said nor implied that "his love for Karuta trumps all" What I am saying is that his love for Chihaya is part & parcel of his love for Karuta & vice versa, but it is not the whole of it (that is the meaning of aspect). which you seem to be implying. Furthermore it is not useful nor is it possible to separate & compare the two (as in which is greater) as much as Karuta is very much part of who Chihaya is, as you yourself said so.

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

The answer to that is yes, Chihaya will still have the same passion. For her, Karuta is her life right now, so even without them, she will
continue to strive higher. There is still Shinobu, and if Shinobu is gone, there is still another challenger for her. It would be nice for her to play with Arata and Taichi, but it is no longer the only reason.

And I agree it is Yes, debatable on the same passion though. maybe , maybe not, maybe less maybe even more, but it would certainly be different. You seem to be glossing over the fact that the single biggest motivation for Chihaya all through out S1 & S2 is their playing together (all three) stated by her thought over & over again. And that her fondest memories of playing Karuta is when the three of them were playing as a team. which is what I meant when I said Chihaya wants to play with Arata & Taichi. Shinobu/queen other challengers is of course another goal Chihaya has discovered, but it still is not her biggest motivation at the moment.but would it be in the future? possibly. Change is after all how one grows & progresses. Yet I feel it would a less bright Karuta world for Chihaya without Arata & Taichi in it.

Which is why I asked the questions because same as Chihaya I feel Taichi too has a big chance of continuing with Karuta without Chihaya & Arata. A less bright world for him too. but still I feel he would.

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

True, there is a chance that he could do that, but that is in honor of her death, to try to continue what she accomplished and to reach her goal. Again, it is for Chihaya's sake he is doing it, not for himself.

and so here I disagree, honoring her death would be a part of why he would continue karuta, But you're forgetting he has his own development & goals of not running anymore, and that part of his Karuta is for himself alone. As he progresses he has as much chance of moving away from Karuta w/Chiyaha as Chihaya does from Karuta w/ Arata+Taichi.

[hyperborealis]

Do we know that Taichi loves karuta? I don't recall any scene from the anime or the manga where he says so or thinks so. There are such scenes for Chihaya, Arata, Nishida, Tsutomu, and Sudo that I know of; Shinobu and Kana both have scenes where they declare their love for the cards. The closest I can think of is earlier in this season, when Taichi agrees with Chihaya, when she says she wants new members for the club who will love karuta, but that is fairly indirect.

Perhaps I am just overlooking it--I would definitely welcome a reference to where Taichi clearly expresses his love for karuta.

Just to continue this skeptical slant, I also point out there are no signature cards associated with Taichi. Chihaya has the "Chihayaburu" card; Shinobu the "Shinoburedo" card, as well as other cards with shinobu in them; last week we learned that Arata has "Wata no Hara" cards; Tsukubu has the Tsukuba cards. Likewise, Taichi has no "first" card, the card that is special to a character as the first card they take: Sumire has #9, Chihaya has #22.

This absence is quite striking, don't you agree?

This is all evidence that in some sense Taichi is outside karuta. Karuta is the place where everything else that is important to him happens--Chihaya, becoming someone who does not run away, connecting with his childhood friends, finding independence from his mother, becoming a good leader for the Mizusawa team. But karuta itself and for its own sake is not what is important for Taichi.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Do we know that Taichi loves karuta? I don't recall any scene from the anime or the manga where he says so or thinks so. There are such scenes for Chihaya, Arata, Nishida, Tsutomu, and Sudo that I know of; Shinobu and Kana both have scenes where they declare their love for the cards. The closest I can think of is earlier in this season, when Taichi agrees with Chihaya, when she says she wants new members for the club who will love karuta, but that is fairly indirect.

So you really think every character except Taichi loves karuta in the series?

Perhaps I am just overlooking it--I would definitely welcome a reference to where Taichi clearly expresses his love for karuta.

To Komano in Season 1:

"I don't have any talent for karuta either. It's tough but I keep playing. I keep losing but I still play, because when I win, I feel so happy".

This absence is quite striking, don't you agree?

No because not every character has a card. So I hardly see how that is striking. Maybe the manga-ka has just not revealed Taichi's card yet.

This is all evidence that in some sense Taichi is outside karuta. Karuta is the place where everything else that is important to him happens--Chihaya, becoming someone who does not run away, connecting with his childhood friends, finding independence from his mother, becoming a good leader for the Mizusawa team. But karuta itself and for its own sake is not what is important for Taichi.

And so I am a little lost why those are separate from love for karuta? If karuta has brought all those things to him and that is his reason for loving it then that is his reason.

It's like that small boy who loves karuta because he can play despite his size and not be at a disadvantage.

And heck even Chihaya loves karuta because of those childhood days she spent with Arata and Taichi and finding a dream for herself.

Komano loves it because it allowed him to make friends and he can use his skills.

Kana loves it because of the history and the poetry.

In the end I am not really sure how any of the characters are really different from Taichi in this regard.

[hyperborealis]

There are very specific scenes for almost all the characters, major and minor, where they will say or think that they "love" karuta, in so many words. This happens so frequently it is a pattern, so we are not surprised when relatively minor characters such as Sudo or the opponents of the week will declare that they "love" karuta.

Likewise, there is a conspicuous pattern where specific cards are associated with a specific character. The most notable of course is the Chihayafuru card, which gives the series and the MC their names (!). Other characters likewise are characteristically connected with particular cards.

What is surprising is that one of the three major characters in not included in these very noticeable patterns. It is significant; we should try to understand it.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

There are very specific scenes for almost all the characters, major and minor, where they will say or think that they "love" karuta, in so many words. This happens so frequently it is a pattern, so we are not surprised when relatively minor characters such as Sudo or the opponents of the week will declare that they "love" karuta.

I don't actually remember every character actually doing this in the specific way that you say.

Likewise, there is a conspicuous pattern where specific cards are associated with a specific character. The most notable of course is the Chihayafuru card, which gives the series and the MC their names (!). Other characters likewise are characteristically connected with particular cards.

But again not every character has a card associated with them. By the end of the series they all might, but it is not like everyone has a card except for Taichi.

What is surprising is that one of the three major characters in not included in these very noticeable patterns. It is significant; we should try to understand it.

It may or may not be significant. The manga-ka for example may want to wait to give that card to Taichi when he overcomes certain struggles.

I also don't agree with you that Taichi has not expressed his love for karuta even if he has not explicitly said "I love karuta".

Interpretation is great (and don't get me wrong I love reading your interpretations) but the very nature of interpretations you can see things from more than one angle.

Taichi struggling to make A class despite continuing to lose, Taichi's finding his own way to play karuta with his excellent memory, Taichi finding ways to motivate the team, etc. These are all Taichi's karuta and the are the way he has shown love for the sport. He doesn't need to say it out loud to me.

If you want my take then perhaps Taichi has not said those words because even he might not realize how much it has become a part of him yet. Remember he still thinks he has no talent for Karuta and he has come this far only with effort (yet Harada-Sensei disagrees with Taichi).

[Arya]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

There are very specific scenes for almost all the characters, major and minor, where they will say or think that they "love" karuta, in so many words. This happens so frequently it is a pattern, so we are not surprised when relatively minor characters such as Sudo or the opponents of the week will declare that they "love" karuta.

Likewise, there is a conspicuous pattern where specific cards are associated with a specific character. The most notable of course is the Chihayafuru card, which gives the series and the MC their names (!). Other characters likewise are characteristically connected with particular cards.

What is surprising is that one of the three major characters in not included in these very noticeable patterns. It is significant; we should try to understand it.

Well, I have to say that you have a point here. Before reading your remarks about the other members or even other players being vocal about their love for Karuta and, most importantly, about Taichi not having his special card, I thought that Tachi already fully loved Karuta and I agreed on Kirarakim arguments. But now I think that he still has to reach that point. So, I don't disagree with her, it's just I think that he is not there yet.

Now, talking about cards, I could argue that all it's due to his great memory. Since he could remember each card from the start it wasn't really important which of them he caught first, not as much as for the other players. In fact the same type of players in this episode organized their cards without a specific order, not giving much importance to them as single cards. But it's just a mechanical explanation that really doesn't say more than that.

My idea of this dissonance between Taichi and the other players depends on what made play them Karuta in the first place. Kana-chan started because she liked wearing Hakama and, more importantly, for the poetical side of Karuta. And even because in her prior club she had been ostracized. So thanks to Karuta she was able to solve each issue, she can wear Hakama, read poems and got friends. The same was for Komano, who was ostracized too, but thanks to Karuta he discovered a new way to use his talent and he got friends. Despite now he looks like losing confidence still he realized himself thanks to Karuta. And so on.
What Taichi solved thanks to Karuta? Nothing. He loves a girl who doesn't see him at all and he has a friend whom he can't be fully friend with. Love for chihaya was what made him play Karuta seriously (so I think), but at the same time it's like love is what stops him progressing in Karuta and his other issues. Because Karuta can't solve it like it did with his friends. But somehow it's working in the opposite direction of other people. He is not good playing Karuta, he loves a girl who doesn't love him and can't be friend with a boy because of this whole mess. He is losing on each front, game, friendship and love.
For that reasons Taichi doesn't fully love Karuta and the author hans't showed all Taichi's cards yet.
On a side note, from this perspective I can see that having Arata showing himself it's not an easy task. He's trying really hard with Karuta and even to be at least recognized by Chihaya. Adding the friendship issue on the table, with all the implications, seems too much even for Taichi to deal with so out of the blue. And I'm not counting that he has to keep studying hard to continue playing Karuta.
At least at this point of the story. How he could solve this situation? I don't know. It would be interesting to see him give up on one of the two to see what would happen. But that's not what Chihayafuru is about so I don't think we will see it soon.
I didn't consider Chihaya and Arata because they had/has a vocation about Karuta, so they didn't need extra reasons to start playing Karuta. Karuta already loved them.

[Kirarakim]

Perhaps Taichi is losing on love but I don't think he is losing on friendship. Taichi can connect to Arata as a friend.

To me Arata is 3 things to Taichi: a friend, rival in love, someone who he admires and he wants to gain their respect.

Also I do think Taichi has gained something from Karuta, the ability to not run away but perhaps he can't fully embrace Karuta until he begins to believe in himself.

That being said his love for Chihaya might affect his playing negatively but is that because their love has no chance or he believes that to be the truth?

[Crontica]

Sigh, if Taichi truly loved Karuta he would be paying attention to the game instead of everyone else around him, the cards relate oh so desperately to his situation yet he doesn't even relate to them, hello the cards are based on 100 love poems, surely he can find one to relate to, his favorite card of sorts so we can finally get this fiasco over with.

Dude even the unenthusiastic girl that just joined figured this out on the second episode.

[Quadratic]

Didn't Kanade associate Taichi with a poem back in season 1? I can't remember if the poem was part of a card or not, though (but then again, Taichi, himself, has not listed any cards he associates himself with).
It was the episode where Taichi got all possessive protective over Chihaya for handing over her cell number/email to some random guy.
(Kanade also called all the members nincompoop, as well )

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Also Taichi didn't just start to play karuta because of Chihaya, that is incorrect. He was playing since they were kids just like Chihaya but at the start of the series decided to not continue because "I will never be good as Arata".

I'm a bit confused here. Are you talking about the elementary school championship or continuing karuta beyond that?
His only reason to play beyond the elementary school championship was because of Chihaya.
When you watch their first "team" match, Taichi was perplexed as to why Chihaya cared so much losing to Arata (ie. he was uninterested for a while, but was inspired by her despite her futile attempts vs Arata).
His actions mirrored quite similarly to Sumire, except that he got interested quicker than Sumire's.

Regarding the Taichi love karuta argument (not really saying this as a for or an against), there's a definitely a difference between Arata/Chihaya's view on karuta vs Taichi's:
Taichi:

I keep losing but I still play, because when I win, I feel so happy.

Arata's text to Chihaya (who actually lost the match):

Did you have fun?

Of course, I'm sure by the end of the story (or maybe even before that), Taichi will come out and go "well actually, I did have fun, after all!"

[Blaat]

What's Nishida's card and when did he profess his love for karuta? I honestly cannot remember that happening.

Originally Posted by Quadratic

Didn't Kanade associate Taichi with a poem back in season 1? I can't remember if the poem was part of a card or not

A promo image for this season had Taichi holding a specific card, not sure if it's the same card.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Perhaps Taichi is losing on love but I don't think he is losing on friendship. Taichi can connect to Arata as a friend.

To me Arata is 3 things to Taichi: a friend, rival in love, someone who he admires and he wants to gain their respect.

Also I do think Taichi has gained something from Karuta, the ability to not run away but perhaps he can't fully embrace Karuta until he begins to believe in himself.

That being said his love for Chihaya might affect his playing negatively but is that because their love has no chance or he believes that to be the truth?

I didn't mean "losing" as a face value, but more on a meta-level. What I was trying to say is that I feel that Taichi right now is not really enjoying playing Karuta nor his friendship with Arata and Chihaya.
That doesn't stop him improving himself. But so far it has been all personal growth more than anything else. He is growing because he is "losing".

I agree that his inferior complex is mining his Karuta's improvements, but not only that, even the love and friendship. It's like a dog biting its tail. He needs to improve in Karuta to face Arata as a player and as a rival, as a trial to finally declare his love to Chihaya, but the fact that Chiahaya has eyes only for Arata as a player and even something more, at least at Taichi's eyes, keeps lowering his self-confidence. And this prevents him improving in Karuta. It's a blind alley.