2010-01-29, 01:23 | Link #1941 |
Lets be reality
Join Date: May 2007
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I really, really doubt the reaction would be anywhere near the same. While Medaka obviously doesn't have any romantic feelings for Zen as of now.. if the manga runs its course I'm 100% positive they'll end together. Stuff like this chapter being a step, small as it may be, in that direction. Nisio wouldn't do a Katanagatari type ending for this.. and that sort of ending is the only way I don't see them together at the end.. and no this isn't through shipping glasses, I'm totally indifferent to Medaka X Zen or any potential pairing in this manga.
Last edited by Westlo; 2010-01-29 at 15:40. |
2010-01-29, 22:23 | Link #1945 | ||||
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Join Date: May 2008
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But they DO make for drama... or comedy. Perfect characters who do no wrong, and can do no wrong, are either going to be very bland or their very perfection will be held up as a flaw (as they are too perfect to really exist, which suggests some hidden imperfection). Quote:
Haruhi's a narcissitic, self-centered jerk whose lack of empathy ranges into sociopathy... which is where the rage comes from. Medaka's lack of understanding of others, and how she projects her motives onto them, makes her damned annoying in some parts of the early story arcs... especially once those people who she projects her beliefs on seem to go along with her motives more often than not, rather than staying 'true' to their own natures or apparent natures. Those 'flaws' she had were, as you pointed out, very shallow and trite - barely worth reading about, and certainly were uninteresting. Medaka's problem, in my opinion, is similar to Zenkichi's towards Medaka; both of them can intellectually understand the sentiment shared by others (in Medaka's case, that other people aren't perfect or even as capable as her; Zenkichi's being that Medaka might actually love him in a way different from how she loves others), but not really 'understand' them at the deepest levels of their minds/beings. Yes, Medaka can superficially understand how people might not be perfect and may be incapable of achieving their full potential (or what she sees as that potential), but doesn't believe that they might not either be able to do so or might not WANT to do so - just as some people can't believe that people may not necessarily want to be 'good' or 'nice' towards others or are incapable of empathy or being righteous/moral. She sees imperfection, but doesn't believe that people might not want to be forced out of their comfort zones and past said imperfections. Ditto Zenkichi not really believing that Medaka's feelings towards him are anything greater/different from those she has towards everyone as a messiah-type character. The reason Medaka sees herself as no greater than any 'other' normal person is that she believes that anyone is capable of achieving anything, but only needs to work a bit harder to do so. She doesn't seem to believe that there may be physical, mental, or emotional limits in others as she seems to have few to none of those (her incredible strength, resistance to pain, ability to control her body and mind to an inhuman degree, superhuman intellect)... which makes her completely incapable of emotionally accepting that she might be the one who's different, or that there might even be limits to other human beings. Because she herself seems to have none, she projects that same 'if I'm like this, anyone can be like this' belief on others, and thus gets confused by people like Unzen who completely refuse to subscribe to her worldview... and unlike 'normal' people, refuses to even entertain the notion that she might not be the delusional one due to their own self-confidence in their own abilities/talents/correctness. Quote:
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And yes, my concern with her earlier appearances is that she DOES dominate people/situations pretty thoroughly, and tries to convince others that her viewpoint is the correct one without telling them 'you're dead wrong, I'm the one who's right' (which would be arrogance). Look at her speech during the judo match to Nabeshima in Chapter 6: "There's no difference between a genius or a normal person either. All that's there is someone who earnestly tries". It's as if Medaka does not differentiate between success or failure, or results - just whether someone attempted an act or not. Of course, Medaka has never failed that we've seen; only recently did we een hear about Kumagawa, who she beat into a pulp because she could not make him play nice/play along. Zenkichi himself says that Medaka always wins, except that one time she didn't 'win' in her own mind, even though he was removed from the situation. Thus, because she always 'wins' (either by imposing her viewpoint on others, or because things go her way... or she makes them go her way through her abilities). She has no way of understanding things outside of her viewpoint, probably because she really, REALLY hates to fail - which is why she doesn't, and why she doesn't understand people who either feel it strongly, or who can feel nothing but that. In other words, she is unable to really connect to some people, since almost everyone (save her) feels like they've failed at least once in their lives. And it was only after Chapter 14-15 that we even saw any major flaws, like her all-consuming rage (Perses Mode); prior to that she was so perfect and sweet that she was kinda annoying. And I think Zenkichi has some part in her belief that she's normal, or at least her denial that she's rather abnormal... especially since he's the one who's stated flat-out (in his head at least, although he may have said this around her once) that she's so completely unusual in her omnicompetence, and her force of personality is so overwhelming to most people... including him. Spoiler:
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2010-01-30, 00:08 | Link #1947 | ||
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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So suppose we take 'strength', or alternatively 'weakness' in the case of Zen (without considering the events of chapter 36). 'Weakness' might describe Zen on a qualitative level in comparison to other characters in Medaka Box, and that might be called a flaw (which would make him relatable as you or others might claim) but quantitatively Zenkichi's 'strength' must certainly be taken as a positive. Seen this way, although one might say that Zen suffers from a flaw 'weakness' or more accurately 'lack of strength' in relation to a subjective standard set by other characters, I'd say objectively that for Zen this does not count as a flaw. So under this structure it can then be understood that in order for a character to be 'flawless' or (under my definition) 'perfect', they are not necessarily required to be the 'best' at everything or, in other words, quantitatively possess the highest rating for every positive trait, but rather simply possess no negative traits. And I don't think that is impossible, even in real life; being perfect isn't about being the best at everything, it is about being completely suited to the role or niche one occupies. edit: upon revision, the above three paragraphs are basically a bait and switch. I don't mean to be talking about 'objectivity vs subjectivity' or 'qualitative vs quantitative' at all; the rambling on those subjects basically represent a bit of incoherence and uncertainty as I started the post. The main point, in fact, lies in the definition of perfection as being 'suitability for a given role' and in the definition of 'flawlessness' being 'no negative traits, from the perspective of what is needed to fulfill said given role'. The rambling/bullshit is a pretty good lead up to the introduction of my rather proprietory definitions, though, so I'm gonna leave it there. To be clear: of the stuff above, only my first sentence and the third paragraph hold. Given this context, you can basically take the meaning of the word 'flaw' to be 'a trait which prevents one from successfully performing in the role or niche one occupies'. To be clear, the 'role' or 'niche' I am speaking of is a just a natural one defined by the universe/life in general, or in fiction, the author (a god-equivalent). So for a person to be held back by a flaw in this worldview must naturally be worthless. They are not fulfilling their purpose, have failed to justify their very existence. They are unsuited to the role they have either grasped or been given, whichever they hold to be more sacred. A flaw is something like that, something that denies its possessor's very existence, and if said possessor allows themself to be bound by it, then they are indeed utterly nothing in my eyes. I thus tend to think of fictional 'flawless' characters as interesting theoretical models/experiments, explorations of what it means to be fully suited to the purpose one exists for. Fictional narratives are ideally suited for this task, allowing the author to construct not just the environmental circumstances but the very fabric of events and causality themselves, in such a way as to fully demonstrate the unity of said 'perfect' characters life/existence. This is a very impressive thing when it happens/is done well. It's the stuff great and inspirational stories are made of. I honestly do not think 'perfect' characters are bland or boring at all. Quote:
So I am going to stick with my original claim. Characters who are actually flawless ('perfect') are likeable and interesting, and being one is a good thing. Perfection is positive with regards to character traits, and flaws are negative. Sorry about not touching on the rest of your posts' content. I don't particularly disagree, but beyond that I am not particularly invested in Medaka or Zen enough that I would dive into analysis of their characters. While I generally find them quite tolerable (because I know they are actively developing), their flaws have bound them to enough of a degree that I am nowhere near an actual fan of them. Actually, as I've probably made pretty obvious earlier in this thread, my single favourite character has always been Unzen from his introduction--he would actually fall under a 'pretty much flawless' description from my perspective. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2010-01-30 at 00:30. |
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2010-01-30, 20:46 | Link #1949 | |||
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Join Date: May 2008
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Well, except Unzen and Zenkichi. They've managed to keep their opinions intact even when she's basically tried swaying them to her viewpoint. Quote:
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And honestly, I really don't see perfect, flawless characters as being that interesting... if only because that's like saying that the universe is static, and that nothing ever changes, or that free will doesn't exist. The fact that the universe isn't makes these perfect characters severely imperfect, as they no longer 'fit' in with the world around them unless they do things to either make the world around them static (so that it indeed IS perfectly suited to them), or else the author ends up creating such an unbelievable situation that suspension of disbelief is impossible... which means it's harder to just enjoy the story, as you're too busy picking at the flaws. |
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2010-01-31, 16:12 | Link #1950 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
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2010-01-31, 22:27 | Link #1952 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Psyren should've died ages ago, but instead it's alive (even with vomic to boot) ... |
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2010-01-31, 22:59 | Link #1954 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Is that confirmed really? I saw it in like 1 random blog, and like 1 post in 2ch. Rest all linking that to that one blog. Then the date they have set for it is Feb 5th, which ... according to the vomic main website, has absolutely no information on. You would think they would say something on the website if it's coming in less than a week.
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2010-01-31, 23:39 | Link #1956 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
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This chapter was disappointing.
I thought Zenkichi was gonna come up with an amazing plan to counter the guns. But it all came down to parry. How is he supposed to suddenly appear in front of Munakata-senpai when he's 10 meters away? Haha... you'd think Munakata-senpai would be (extremely) physically strong if he were to hide all those weapons. |
2010-02-01, 00:38 | Link #1957 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
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http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showp...&postcount=558 http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showp...&postcount=635 |
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2010-02-01, 01:01 | Link #1959 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
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You can clearly see Gingitsune is scheduled for the 4th, and Psyren on the 5th, and no Medaka. Quote:
And since he didn't post it, here's the rumored VA list, I couldn't find the blog that has a the date labeled to it anymore, but here are the links to the VA list. http://blog.livedoor.jp/uri_sure/archives/51508759.html http://changi.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/...1264498808/157 黒神めだか/豊口めぐみ 人吉善吉/神谷浩史 不知火半袖/加藤英美里 |
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2010-02-01, 02:30 | Link #1960 |
Lets be reality
Join Date: May 2007
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That is absurdly fast to get a vcomic, not even Mago and Toriko got one so fast and they are the next 2 big Jump series (hopefully Mago can replace Bleach in the "big" 3), so I don't believe it until I see a source.
Can you translate the rumored VA list stuopidget? Don't worry about Bakuman, not even Jump is moronic enough to cancel something that sells over 300,000 copies in its first week pre-anime due to a few bottom 5 rankings. Bakuman could rise to 500,000 copies per week after an anime.. most anime adaptions are considered failures if they don't increase the sales of the source material. You should see the figures of the FMA Manga before the Bones tv series and after.. massive, absolutely massive jump. |
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action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council |
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