Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Jan-Poo]

For the records I also think that some people here are stating facts that can't be inferred simply on what we have seen about the Evolvers.

And I don't think that the GA is a bunch of saints either.

Both parties are at fault here, and the most logical and rational solution at this point would be to simply split the galaxy in half and agree to stay out of each other's way.

However from what I've seen neither side is willing to do so.
At this point they simply cannot trust each others. Even if they were to sign a truce they'd live with the constant knowledge that the other side hates them and it's growing, prospering, spreading and improving their weapons.


Anyway If I'd have to decide I'd rather be with the Galactic Alliance. I can't agree with the kind of path the Evolvers chose for humanity. And the human genome is not something that a single faction has the right to change. The risks are too high. Between waging war against a nation for possessing mass destruction weapons and waging war against a nation for meddling with the human genome I'd find the latter more justifiable any day.

Not because meddling with the human genome is wrong in itself, but because if you let single factions do whatever they want with that the consequences can only be catastrophic, and a lot more than any nuke can be.

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by aohige

Reading through this thread and everything. This just wins the cake for laughs.

[Kirarakim]

I think both the Alliance and Hideauze threw away their humanity. The Hideauze threw away their humanity to "better themselves". While the alliance threw away their humanity to ironically try to remain human.

It will probably end with the Gargantian's being the best choice, although I hope there is a twist there. I don't want Ledo to have to admit everything he knew was wrong and everything the Gargantia's show him is right. That would be disappointing & a bit too simple (even though I do really enjoy what the conflict of the Hideauze and Alliance turned out to be).

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

A child's consent in mutating her is highly dubious. `

Her father become "evolved" of his own will, and probably with conviction, Her mother didn't showed much disdain either. Parental consensus seems likely.

Anyway evolvers experiments were violating of international laws (even their quite onesided video confirmed that) and thus armed intervence is if no just at least justifiable.

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

A child's consent in mutating her is highly dubious.

This is true. I hadn't got the names straight. She seems happy as a squid, there with her squidified parents (?), especially as compared with being a future frozen peoplesicle. But I know that's not the point.

Anyway, to get away from the disagreement, I just noticed a couple of neat posts on 2channel: one suggested that Amy looks like Mrs. Yamamoto. Not sure it's true, but the idea of her being a descendant is interesting. I do wonder if the parentless Amy was planted in Gargantia by the Hideauze/whalesquid. Maybe Gargantia is part of the Evolvers' descendants' attempt to reverse engineer humans for Earth, now that they have managed to melt the seas.

Another makes your "cult" point with the words "Sarin Matsumoto."

In general, 2channel doesn't seem as passionately involved in discussing the rights and wrongs, but is more cool and jokey about all this, as far as I've read it.

[Enjou]

Wow, didn't see this twist coming.

There's a lot of unanswered questions.
1. How intelligent are the Earth Hideauze? They don't seem to use tech, but they are largely self sufficient anyways so they don't necessarily need it. Most importantly, are they sapient?
2. How much humanity is left in the space Hideauze? They seem to still be intelligent, as they use their biotech to make things like the Blossom Sail, but how much of the human psyche is left?
3. How much does the GA actually still know? It's quite possible that there may be some people at the top who know the truth, but given that the Alliance has forgotten where Earth is it's also quite possible they have forgotten that as well.


In regards to who the bad guys are, I'm pretty sure that the current conflict between the Hideauze and the Galactic Alliance is one where there isn't necessarily a good side - the refusal to coexist seems to be on both sides. Keep in mind that the Hideauze are intelligent and they haven't reached out to offer peace to the Galactic Alliance either.

The GA has also been called space Nazis, which I'm not entirely sure is fair. The vast majority of the people in the GA don't know that the Hideauze were originally humans, and it's unknown if genetic purity is still even a factor in their war against the Hideauze. At this point mere survival may really be the main motivator for their actions. Yes, they dispose of those who can't fight, but again this is likely due to necessity more than anything else - space is a very harsh environment, and unlike the Hideauze they are not self sufficient. While energy doesn't seem to be a major problem for the GA, it doesn't seem they are able to synthesize basic necessities like water or oxygen. If a ship has to sustain those unable to perform their duties on scarce resources, then the chances of it failing whatever mission it is on will increase significantly. I'm not saying it's morally right or anything, but in extreme circumstances the survival of the group may depend on individual sacrifices.

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm not so sure I wouldn't call what they did to Elaine a human right violation, parental consent or not.

Good thing they bombed her then.

[Kleeyook]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I think both the Alliance and Hideauze threw away their humanity. The Hideauze threw away their humanity to "better themselves". While the alliance threw away their humanity to ironically try to remain human.

It will probably end with the Gargantian's being the best choice, although I hope there is a twist there. I don't want Ledo to have to admit everything he knew was wrong and everything the Gargantia's show him is right. That would be disappointing & a bit too simple (even though I do really enjoy what the conflict of the Hideauze and Alliance turned out to be).

Well, the Hideauze clearly throw aay their humanity, both in physical appearance and then their mentality follow. The GA on the other hand, try to use eugenics and cloning to keep themselves pure and to produce soldiers to fight against the Hideauze. The GA also has to lie to its people about the Hideauze. But I seriously doubt anything will change just because the truth comes to light. The Hideauze doesn't seem to be nice either.

However, human history has always been like what the GA is so the GA never throws away their humanity, just their social and living standard change dramatically. Seriously, racists based on race, nationality and color have been in human history since long ago, but such radical change like the Hideauze and the war between them and the GA never exists in our history.

The best solution that human should follow is the GA imo. If people can live in spaceships there would be no need to modify themselves into some abomination. The Hideauze is an abomination of a pointless and contradicting evolution. The Evolvers claim they can live in space without spacesuit yet they still need the wormhole platform to spread their terror across galaxy. Also, we clearly have more option for space travelling than turning into Hideauze like what the GA does but their inability to accept another choice and does whatever the hell they want is the very reason why the hopeless and pointless war between both sides start in the first place.

Both humans and the Hideauze are fated to wipe each other out because the Evolvers only think about their objective and doesn't care about what others think. When the CA attacked them, they act like victims, what a bunch of assholes! Now that the Hideauze exist (I hope this won't offend anyone here but they shouldn't exist in the first place), both the Hideauze and humans will be distrusted and paranoid of each other. This isn't your standard grey vs grey morality but rather grey vs yellow or blue. It's too much radical from any conflicts we ever have.

As for the Gargantia, you know that they can exist because they aren't many humans left on Earth anymore after the CA and the Evolvers left, right? A lot of human on Earth back them must also died from the climate change. They were mostly abandoned by both their space-faring ancestors and thus don't have to compete for resource against such monstrous group. There are high possibility that Gargantia will turn into hell on Earth if the GA and Hideauze came back...

[taofd]

human right violation

Is it a human rights violation if it's with full consent of the individual?

You guys are too quick to jump to conclusions.

abomination

Why are the hideaze abominations? Just because they look different? That is literally like saying dolphins are abominations because they chose to evolve into dolphins while we shared a common ancestor...

The real abomination is that both sides are perpetuating endless war. Welcome to the industrial military complex, now in Space™.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Kanon

We don't know that. People in this thread seem to be making a lot of assumptions based on the minimal information we got. Ledo and the Alliance's information are completely unreliable, and most likely outright lies. We have literally no clue what the current situation is like on the Hideauze side. The only thing we know for sure is that the Alliance and them are stuck in an eternal war. Both sides are probably at fault.

And people wonder how atrocities have repeatedly occurred throughout history...

[Nakorius]

Originally Posted by taofd

Is it a human rights violation if it's with full consent of the individual?

You guys are too quick to jump to conclusions.



Why are the hideaze abominations? Just because they look different? That is literally like saying dolphins are abominations because they chose to evolve into dolphins while we shared a common ancestor...

The real abomination is that both sides are perpetuating endless war. Welcome to the industrial military complex, now in Space™.

People who are sick and in pain want to die (euthanasia) but giving them such an option is illegal in most places.. even nowadays people cannot control their own lives..

our common ancestor could say we are abominations or the dolphins.. but he is gone, and the squids want to do the same, make their ancestor ( humans) go away into oblivion.

[GreyZone]

Sorry for being OT, but wow this must be a new record:

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 25 (11 members and 14 guests)

Or maybe I just never realized how many watch this.



I wonder if next Episode will be "the whalesquids strike back" or if nothing like that happens... and will Ledo accept the recordings he just saw as truth, or will he just agree with Chamber that this is "just a trick from the enemy"?

[zeando]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Sorry for being OT, but wow this must be a new record:

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 25 (11 members and 14 guests)

Or maybe I just never realized how many watch this.

well, the episode discussion is having a big time in many sites, and the lurkers may need something to repost :P

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by taofd

Is it a human rights violation if it's with full consent of the individual?

If. What if they didn't have the full consent of all the individuals or if they weren't fully informed of the consequences of those experiments? Can we be sure that the continental union made it all up and that there wasn't any violation?

Also, we have seen that they experimented on kids, and those aren't on an age where they can consent.

Also it's not so hard to bypass international laws on human rights if you think it's all right when they give their consent. You'd just need to pick people that live in extreme poverty and offer them a lot of money, then you can take their organs, and what not.
So no. Their consent doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by taofd

Why are the hideaze abominations? Just because they look different? That is literally like saying dolphins are abominations because they chose to evolve into dolphins while we shared a common ancestor...

I'd go with my catgirl example again to prove that "look different" isn't the issue. Nobody would call a catgirl an abomination! (not true, but you get what I mean).

So why are Hideauze abominations? Because they are horrifying! Because they are repugnant!

What, you think that's a wrong reason to consider them abominations? It isn't.

anything abominable; anything greatly disliked or abhorred.

face it, those guys are a crossbreeds between humans and squids. That's just like Cthulhu or the Mindflayers, the latter are classified as "aberration".

[Avrorrange]

They are a different species competing for space with humanity. Someone as to come out at the top eventually. Those things hate us and they will try to kill us whether we resist or not. As far as I am concerned, those who thinks that criticise the GA for killing the hideauze are being hypocritical. If you have no problem helping to defile this planet and thus killing millions of other 'inferior' organisms by using electricity and eat food produced in farms that were originally the habitats of other organisms, then you have no problem killing a different organism who is competing with you for survival. That's the truth people.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by darthfanta

They are a different species competing for space with humanity. Someone as to come out at the top eventually. If you have no problem helping to pollute planet and thus killing millions of other 'inferior' organisms by using electricity, there's no problem killing a different organism who is competing with you for survival.

Actually I have an issue with that. You can't treat sentient beings as you treat animals. At any rate there is a clear difference, the comparison doesn't work. You are invalidating any chance for alien species to peacefully coexist with that.

Hideauze are horrifying but they are still sentient beings... maybe...

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Actually I have an issue with that. You can't treat sentient beings as you treat animals. At any rate there is a clear difference, the comparison doesn't work. You are invalidating any chance for alien species to peacefully coexist with that.

Hideauze are horrifying but they are still sentient beings... maybe...

Sentient beings who also wants to eliminate you. And what makes an organism sentient? Are you trying to say that dogs are not intelligent? Dolphins aren't intelligent? Chimps aren't intelligent? Do you think they can't feel pain ? Cows can't feel pain. Pigs don't get hurt when you kill them?Just because they are not as intelligent as us, this doesn't meant they aren't sentient. It's hypocritical to believe that you can treat other animals like sh@t but the GA shouldn't fight the hideauze for survival.

[Guardian Enzo]

It's astonishing how much of this debate seems to boil down to the physical appearance of one side as opposed to the other.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by darthfanta

Sentient beings who also wants to eliminate you. And what makes an organism sentient? Are you trying to say that dogs are not intelligent? Dolphins aren't intelligent? Chimps aren't intelligent? Do you think they can't feel pain ? Cows can't feel pain. Pigs don't get hurt when you kill them?Just because they are not as intelligent as us, this doesn't meant they aren't sentient. It's hypocritical to believe that you can treat other animals like sh@t but the GA shouldn't fight the hideauze for survival.

You are confusing sentience with intelligence and ability to feel pain.

In science fiction, an alien, android, robot, hologram, or computer described as sentient is usually treated as a fully human character, with similar rights, qualities, and capabilities as any other character. Foremost among these properties is human level intelligence (i.e. "sapience"), but sentient characters also typically display desire, will, consciousness, ethics, personality, insight, and many other human qualities. Sentience is being used in this context to describe an essential human property that brings all these other qualities with it. The words "sapience", "self-awareness", and "consciousness" are used in similar ways in science fiction.

So I refuse the notion that dogs an cats are sentient according to the above definition.

If there is an hypocrisy is to think that you have the right to refuse equal rights to a species without recognizing that they are inferior to you. If you don't, what kind of excuse do you have?

With your arguments you should rather claim that it's wrong to kill animals not that it's right to kill Hideauze.

Anyway the main practical difference between a sentient alien and a non sentient alien is that you can make peace with the former but not with the latter.
With animals and beasts you don't really have the choice to use diplomacy.

[mikeomni]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

It's astonishing how much of this debate seems to boil down to the physical appearance of one side as opposed to the other.

True, it exposes some of our bias doesn't it? If the Hideauze were alien to start with it wouldn't be as abhorrent as former humans. Seeing something different but you know should be similar to you are probably triggers a self-deference mechanism. I know I shouldn't, but inwardly I still cringe when seeing pictures of misshapen humans. These are often victims of circumstance, blameless for their present state, and it takes an act of will to overcome that primal reaction. That will can be overthrown by the excuse of intentional breaking of convention. I guess that's why some cultures find things such as tattoos, body piercings and transsexualism so repulsive they are intolerant.