Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[zeando]

Originally Posted by Funkatron

They showed how the symbiotes got created. Evidence that I posted shows these are not just symbiotes

haven't you forgot about the very human-like evolver who had the first test if they could survive in space?
that didn't look so much like a squid but a lot more like an human, just with some tentacles around the head
the mature whalesquids show no signs of anything human (maybe except the teeth), and as i suggested before maybe they resembling humans in some parts was only to make easier the merge

to reword it, how can you be sure the symbiotes when they got firstly created didn't already had fetus-like first growth stages and human-like teeth?
i mean, have you considered the possibility of the symbiotes got created with human guts? (it's nothing so fictional, pigs with human organs created for organ donations it's something which was already tried in the real world)

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Whatever one thinks of such "salvaging and repurposing", it is enough to demonstrate sapience. Besides which, we have conversations between Ledo and the Gargantian crew that clearly demonstrates that the Gargantian crew have human level-intelligent and sapience.

We see no such evidence with the Earth Hideauze. They do not appear to have built, salvaged, or repurposed much of anything.

So there is legitimate reason to doubt that the Earth Hideauze are sapient. In other words, there is legitimate reason to doubt that they enjoy human level intelligence.

The Space Hideauze could well be a different matter. Chamber noted some differences between the Space Hideauze and the Earth Hideauze.


But while you take issue with "squid haters", the fact is we have no proof that the Space Hideauze are sapient or enjoy human level-intelligence. So those who insist that the Space Hideauze are sapient and have human-level intelligence have no more basis for that insistence than those who insist the contrary. Its a completely open question at this point.

They did build a freaking 'death star' in episode one which wiped out a large portion of the human fleet though.

[Funkatron]

Originally Posted by zeando

haven't you forgot about the very human-like evolver who had the first test if they could survive in space?
that didn't look so much like a squid but a lot more like an human, just with some tentacles around the head
the mature whalesquids show no signs of anything human (maybe except the teeth), and as i suggested before maybe they resembling humans in some parts was only to make easier the merge

to reword it, how can you be sure the symbiotes when they got firstly created didn't already had fetus-like first growth stages and human-like teeth?

Because it doesn't fit the narative of the story.

The writers have been hinting at this in small doses before and heavily here: the "dat ass"( ) squid, the human like teeth and now the embryo like squid babies and the squidling Chamber killed (especially after showing what a kid turned squid looked like in the video). To have them be just the non human creation sucks all the impact of the revelation and Ledo's despair. The whole point of the episode was to shock Ledo and the viewer to the fact that "ZOMG, they're people! You've been killing people!". It makes no sense to take it back with "Oh, the ones you were killing right now weren't people, though. You're freaking out for nothing, dude."

[zeando]

Originally Posted by Funkatron

Because it doesn't fit the narative of the story.

The writers have been hinting at this in small doses before and heavily here: the "dat ass"( ) squid, the human like teeth and now the embryo like squid babies and the squidling Chamber killed (especially after showing what a kid turned squid looked like in the video). To have them be just the non human creation sucks all the impact of the revelation and Ledo's despair. The whole point of the episode was to shock Ledo and the viewer to the fact that "ZOMG, they're people! You've been killing people!". It makes no sense to take it back with "Oh, the ones you were killing right now weren't people, though. You're freaking out for nothing, dude."

that's just you adapting the story to your expectations then, like i was doing :u

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by darthfanta

They did build a freaking 'death star' in episode one which wiped out a large portion of the human fleet though.

I rewatched the first half of Episode 1, and you're right.

The organic/flower-looking nature of that super-weapon had overly influenced my memory of it.

So yes, the Space Hideauze do appear to be sapient.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's perfectly fine to disagree with the Evolvers, but we shouldn't lose sight of the GA's flaws that we knew of long before this episode.


The GA has outlawed families, for crying out loud. They've stripped the word "co-existence" from the dictionary. The physically weak are simply disposed of. The soldier class (and possibly all humans) need to earn such basic rights as the right to eat, sleep, and procreate as they wish. That is a massive curtailing on human rights. We knew all of this before this episode even aired.

Imperialist fascists don't become good guys just because they happen to be warring with Lovecraftian horrors (if that's how you choose to view the Hideauze). They're still imperialist fascists, and should be recognized as such.

I'm going to have to side with Triple R on this one. Neither side are in the right here so it's hard for me to pick a side.

[Iron Maw]

Thanks to a certain image that was posted a couple of episode threads back, I wasn't surprised at the connection between the hideauze and mankind. The history that followed it was something else though, in a good way.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

I'm going to have to side with Triple R on this one. Neither side are in the right here so it's hard for me to pick a side.

Thanks.

Really, I don't think the narrative expects the viewer to pick a side. Especially since I doubt we'll be seeing any more of the Space Hideauze or the GA.

The real question is how Ledo handles the dark, awful truth of what he's been put through, and what he's done. Sapient or not, he's just brutally massacred an entire community of whalesquids that weren't threatening anyone. And, if nothing else, at least some of these whalesquids have human ancestry. Can Ledo recover from this? Will Chamber let him?

[ReddyRedWolf]

To me the Continental Union was right at the beginning. You don't tolerate those who violate human rights for the sake of research. Even if it is useful you can't justify atrocities.

The Continental Union developed a method for continuing their civilization and spread humanity in the galaxy to find a new home.

Basically saying to the Evolvers. Fine you guys want to mutate yourself then I'm out of here so we wont waste each others time.

The Evolvers already fanatical wont let the Continental Union be so they followed them.

The constant war lead the Continental Union to be the Galactic Alliance. A communist eugenic state where you are told what your place in society is. Naturally this likely lead to some dissenters as human rights again was ignored. This is likely the origin of the Drifters/Wandering Tribes.

[jcdietz03]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It's all because she actually looked kinda cute. This is basically human's attitude towards other animals in a nutshell

Is it cute? If you harm it you're a bastard!
Is it ugly? Argh! Kill it! Kill it!

Also, children are cute and adults are ugly. This holds true for Hideauze children as well.

It seems like Continental Union and Evolvers could talk with one another at least initially. Early on, Evolver faction was some evolved people and some humans who want to evolve. At some point the sides stopped talking to each other. I have no idea how this could have happened. In real lengthy conflicts, like Europe's Hundred Years War, different sides were still able to communicate with each other in spite of lengthy conflict.

It's possible that, during the time between the CU hyperspace jump and Hideauze catching up with them, they had forgotten how to communicate with each other. If that's the case though, wouldn't the Hideaze forget about transgressions of the past, and just go somewhere else in the galaxy, to live in peace?

[GreyZone]

Some people said that the Hideauze are operating on a hive-mind. If that is true, then I would rather be on the GA's side, because there there is at least a POSSIBILITY, however small it is, to bring about a change in the society. This seems impossible for me on the Hideauze side if they really are a hive-mind.

It would be different though if the Hideauze still were individuals. Then I would probably not be able to choose a side.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

To me the Continental Union was right at the beginning. You don't tolerate those who violate human rights for the sake of research. Even if it is useful you can't justify atrocities.

The Continental Union developed a method for continuing their civilization and spread humanity in the galaxy to find a new home.

Basically saying to the Evolvers. Fine you guys want to mutate yourself then I'm out of here so we wont waste each others time.

The Evolvers already fanatical wont let the Continental Union be so they followed them.

The constant war lead the Continental Union to be the Galactic Alliance. A communist eugenic state where you are told what your place in society is. Naturally this likely lead to some dissenters as human rights again was ignored. This is likely the origin of the Drifters/Wandering Tribes.

You're leaving out the part where the Continental Union bombed the Evolvers' research facility and this is before they said "Screw this I'm out!" attempting to leave everyone else behind.

As for the Drifters/Wandering Tribes I can really see a split in philosophy being different the being the case.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

You're leaving out the part where the Continental Union bombed the Evolvers' research facility and this is before they said "Screw this I'm out!" attempting to leave everyone else behind.

Reading comprehension fail.

You don't tolerate those who violate human rights for the sake of research. Even if it is useful you can't justify atrocities.

Also we are not sure if the Continental Union set the gate to self destruct. For all we know the Evolver leader said that to motivate his people to steal the gate.

[Repelsteeltju]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Reading comprehension fail.



Also we are not sure if the Continental Union set the gate to self destruct. For all we know the Evolver leader said that to motivate his people to steal the gate.

Why would they need to steal the gate though, if the unionists where just going to leave the gate once they had gone though it?

[LKK]

Originally Posted by Repelsteeltju

Why would they need to steal the gate though, if the unionists where just going to leave the gate once they had gone though it?

The unionists built the gate. The Evolvers believed that the unionists were going to destroy the gate once the unionists were through it; thereby stranding the Evolvers to Earth and its immediate space. Therefore, the Evolvers decided to steal (in other words, take control of the gate) to keep the unionists from destroying the gate after their exodus was done.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You clearly haven't read what I wrote or you don't know how civil movements work.

I said that you have the right to protest and to advocate the necessity to change the law. That's how you should do it, if you want to keep it peaceful.

I'm sure the GA will allow you to have your peaceful protest unabated. Governments like the GA only continue to operate because outside pressure is trumping all other needs. Their fight against the Hideaze is what is keeping that society together.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Some people said that the Hideauze are operating on a hive-mind. If that is true, then I would rather be on the GA's side, because there there is at least a POSSIBILITY, however small it is, to bring about a change in the society.

Not that small. They just need to win the war. Once the outside pressure is gone and survival is insured, they'll want what lies beyond survival.

The squids, OTOH, will still be squids even if they win.

[zeando]

Originally Posted by LKK

The unionists built the gate. The Evolvers believed that the unionists were going to destroy the gate once the unionists were through it; thereby stranding the Evolvers to Earth and its immediate space. Therefore, the Evolvers decided to steal (in other words, take control of the gate) to keep the unionists from destroying the gate after their exodus was done.

the question is then why did the evolvers need to use the gate too?
they should have been able to live in space, so they didn't even need a planet, they had an infinite space they could have used, and they already solved their problem of survivalism caused by the ice age


talking about the episode, i found curious the expression of ledo during the speech of the leader of the evolvers when they were talking about taking over the warp gate to "expand into the space for greater prosperity"
i guess he remembered some of the speeches he heard in the galactic alliance

[rocket]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Whatever one thinks of such "salvaging and repurposing", it is enough to demonstrate sapience. Besides which, we have conversations between Ledo and the Gargantian crew that clearly demonstrates that the Gargantian crew have human level-intelligent and sapience.

We see no such evidence with the Earth Hideauze. They do not appear to have built, salvaged, or repurposed much of anything.

So there is legitimate reason to doubt that the Earth Hideauze are sapient. In other words, there is legitimate reason to doubt that they enjoy human level intelligence.

As far as I recall from watching the show no one's tried talking to them - so that's kinda moot.

On the other hand they are 'squatting' in the remains of their base more or less analogously to how the Gargatians are squatting. The main difference being that because of their biology they don't need to make machines to shlter or protect themselves or to feed themselves. So what? They could still have as 'rich' and complex a social and aesthetic life as the Gargantians. Why do we assume that technological or economic activity is required to be sapient?

Furthermore the argument was that the whalesquids are just animals so it's OK TO KILL THEM. That I find kind of horrifying, because if they are are indeed sapient, then it's murder to kill them without just cause.

The Space Hideauze could well be a different matter. Chamber noted some differences between the Space Hideauze and the Earth Hideauze.

But while you take issue with "squid haters", the fact is we have no proof that the Space Hideauze are sapient or enjoy human level-intelligence. So those who insist that the Space Hideauze are sapient and have human-level intelligence have no more basis for that insistence than those who insist the contrary. Its a completely open question at this point.

Well I'm glad you changed your perspective on this.

Given that the space squids can live out in space and humans v1.0 really just want planets its really quite a tragedy that they can't coexist.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by darthfanta

They did build a freaking 'death star' in episode one which wiped out a large portion of the human fleet though.

Doesn't matter. The G.A. dudes are so dreamy, the Hideauze are clearly subhuman beasts by comparison.