2007-10-15, 07:10 | Link #721 | |
Love hater
Join Date: Jul 2007
Age: 32
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2007-10-15, 18:36 | Link #722 | |
Lonely without Suigintou
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: in the Endless Forest.
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2007-10-24, 11:48 | Link #726 | |
Zetsubo-sensei daaaaaa !!
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I have already put my true opinion about the two doll's fight in this thread and what Ouverture actually tells us about it. But no way for Gin's fans to understand, so I gave up and play with them. I'll explain later what I do mean with the "Junk is junk because of junk" later... some Big Daddies are waiting for being turned into junk. |
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2007-10-26, 08:10 | Link #728 |
Zetsubo-sensei daaaaaa !!
Join Date: Dec 2005
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So here we go... Everything is Junk's fault by Blablabla
Rozen's bashers are forgetting important things about the character : - He is an artist. And as an artist he has to deal with an idea as soon as it cames to her mind. That's why he did not finish Gin, because Kanaria came in his mind. So he worked on Kanaira, then Boku+Desu came, then Shinku.... - He is an artisan. And as an artisan there is no way for him to let uncompleted something he started. So he may have planed to come back to Gin and finish her. And that's why the other dolls were told that they were seven... because Gin never lelft his mind... he has always been the firs Rozen Maiden that he planned to finish some day. But that Gin left when he finished Shinku... she disappeared and no more way for him to put that torso and that Rosa Mystica. Why that fucking bastard left our poor kawaii gentle innocent beautiful Gin-chama without torso when he gave her that Roza Mystica ? "The other way to become Alice", I will answer you. He created a "disturbing element", using that imperfection, that "complex" that Gin would have toward her sisters and wanted to see if they would be capable to overcome that. Because I do think, after having watched Traumend, that Rozen actually never thought about Alice Game... I mean by "taking your sister heart to improve yourself". If not... he would not have kept Kirakishou slept all this time since the dolls have to be 7 to "play". He wanted them to understand that and... reward the ones who succeed by bringing them to life and not the 2 others. Let's take a look at each doll : The obvious ones : The Seki Sisters : Desu is the first doll who understood that killing sisters for yourself is selfish and wrong. She has always though like that and acted to make the others stop 'till the end. Her sister in the opposite has always been in Alice Game... even if was not for herself, even if the had shown a great devotion toward humans. She failed. Desu brought back, Boku not. Kanaria : She not quite like "desu". I don't really think that Kanaria did realize how wrong is Alice Game. She is just a doll who likes to enjoy her life and having fun and did not think about fighting... Actually I don't really think that she has considered Alice Game... In Traumend she just wanted the bring the dolls to Mii-chan. But in the last eps, she did understand how the other felt and fought along side Shinku and Desu. -> rewarded Shinku : Shinku has always shown mixed feelings about Alice Game. Sure, she wanted to reach that ideal perfecting, sure, she knew she had to fight for it but... when she has always seemed to be hesitant about giving the final blow and take the sister's heart. back to Ouverture, she had already met -desu and Hina Ichigo... she was stronger than them, she knew it but not killed them. In S1, she begged for Gin to understand that she could not beat her and to stop. In S2... well... she was really pissed off. next onces, later, have to go. ^^ |
2007-10-26, 13:33 | Link #729 | |
Lonely without Suigintou
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: in the Endless Forest.
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2007-10-29, 15:49 | Link #730 |
Zetsubo-sensei daaaaaa !!
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Well if that "true meaning" is a soul accomplishment rather than a body's one like I think... that "make sense".
I mean, Rozen Maiden's quest is like everybody's who don't like themselves and are running after a "better me". "I'm too fat", "too small", "little boobs" or what else. Here you have a creator that not only tryed to create a "no perfect" complex in his creations' heart (I said "tryed" because it seems that only Gin and Shinku are chasing after that perfection... Boku only wants to fulfill what she thinks are Rozen's wishes and the other ones.... don't care ) but it told them a "simple" way to overcome it and to reach that perfection. Then he sees who wants the body perfection more than the soul one... because being physical Alice actually means "kill your sisters". So here I go on : The "litigious" ones : - Hina Ichigo : Like Kanaria she never truly cared about Alice Game... only wanted to have fun. But her selfish attitude put her medium's life in danger... and that may be why Father punished her. And here we go for an other "curious" point about Alice Game. So dolls are to fight each others... they have to become stronger than the other ones and their power, they take it from humans. So becoming Alice does not only mean "killing your sisters", but "killing humans too if weak ones". And when you look at the dolls who stay at the end, they were the ones who understood that... well, Gin's case is more complex, so here we go. - Gin : I think that even if she was a bad very girl (hunting her sisters putting humans life in danger), Rozen did forgive because he saw Gin improving for the best at Megu's side in spite of the hatred she built in her heart because of him. So.... you have a Guy who wanted his dolls to overcome a test : The Alice Game. And he rewarded the girls who di pass it by bringing them back when Barasuishou blew away. Therefore we can consider that Shinku, Suiseiseki, Kanaria and Suigintou are all Alice because they managed to live by themselves, for themselves or the ones they love and not te be better than anyone. That's all. |
2007-11-07, 19:20 | Link #731 |
"Bi?!" BI?!
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Oct 2007
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I think that is quite a possible theory.
I don't get why would Rozen want to put his dolls into a trial and told them only about the "simple way" and told them that Alice is the girl of his dreams? That and if his intention was to create a "no-perfection" mindset, then wouldn't Shinku and Gin be the only one that should be accounted as "punishable"? Seeing as they are the only ones that actually consider their goal as to seeking perfection. Quite frankly, that is exactly why Souseiseki was driven to participate in the Alice Game despite she doesn't want to. Her reasons are almost as good as Gin's reasons. She just had Rozen's wellbeing on the top of her priorities like Gin had Megu's wellbeing. I personally think Rozen was watching the dolls fighting each other. I am guessing somewhere when he was watching it, he realized that this wasn't the right way and that Alice isn't about total perfection physically, but what makes a true Alice (as Blablabla said) is the spiritual values of the dolls. Going by the anime storyline, this probably is the point when he walks in and repairs all the dolls spare Souseiseki and Hina Ichigo. Now, what really, really puzzles me is that why exactly didn't he repair Souseiseki and Hina Ichigo then? Was it that Laplace's Demon had their Rosa Mystica or that their bodies were somewhere else? I am leaning more to the Laplace's Demon having that as it is said that it is Shinku's burden to wake them up again. Of course, we would never really quite know the answer unless Peach Pit somehow continues with the manga or the animators decided to push through a season 3 without Peach Pit (which I think they should since they had driven the story so far away from the manga already).
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Last edited by MaxwellDemon; 2007-11-07 at 23:35. |
2007-11-11, 11:34 | Link #732 |
Keine is moo.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ohio
Age: 42
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I just watched Ouverture, and I honestly cannot understand where all the Shinku-hate comes from... going into it knowing that it had made people love Gin-sama and hate Shinku I was expecting Shinku to be totally evil throughout the OVA or something. But up until the very end when Gin totally deserved it, I never saw Shinku acting maliciously. Of course there was that one bad moment that basically turned Gin evil, where I was like "ouch, you really screwed up there, Shinku". But even there she was just being honest about the way she regarded Alice and the Alice Game; when she ends up losing her arm in Season 1, she immediately thinks that she has become junk; it's not like she was saying it just to bring Gin down (obviously, it was a really stupid and insensitive thing to say, that's one of those situations where you just keep your thoughts to yourself).
What I really cannot believe is how people are putting Shinku's actions prior to that incident in a bad light... for chrissakes, she was trying to *help* Gin! It was pretty clear she wasn't just trying to build Gin up so that she could kill her later without feeling guilty. Even if she was "pitying" Gin, she was still was doing it with good intentions. Unlike Boku, who clearly just had contempt towards Gin, she couldn't believe the first doll could be so weak, and just decided to put her out of her misery. I think lots of people are looking at Gin they knew from Season 1 and 2, and feeling that Shinku should have treated Gin in Ouverture like Gin in the two main seasons i.e. as an equal. But the fact is, after coming through the mirror, Gin was clearly in need of help, both physically and emotionally. Shinku keeps calling her a "child", which is pretty much true at that time. No one complains about how Shinku takes in another "child", Hina Ichigo, who's helpless after losing her ring. "But omg, it's *Gin-sama*! Shinku can't treat her like Hina Ichigo!" is what I bet Gin-fans are thinking; even if helpless Gin is so moe, they can't stand the fact that it's *Shinku* who is caring for her. Meanwhile, people seem to be ignoring Shinku's own development in Seasons 1 and 2, when she apologized to Gin for calling her junk, and realized she was wrong about saying Gin couldn't become Alice due to being incomplete (the one real unprovoked bad thing Shinku had done, and I already discussed how I don't think she said it out of malice). But of course Gin won't even accept an apology (and she's never apologized for smashing Shinku's brooch). But it's all Shinku's fault apparently Of course the "Rozen is evil" argument is a seriously abused dead horse, but I still have to throw in the obligatory, "It's not Shinku's fault that Rozen gave her that brooch and didn't finish Gin. Gin could be hating Father for not finishing her, but instead she takes it all out on Shinku." |
2007-11-11, 13:26 | Link #733 |
"Bi?!" BI?!
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Oct 2007
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While I don't necessarily get where all the Shinku hate came from... I definitely don't hate Gin either.
Gin might have never apologized to Shinku about destroying her brooch, but I think the way Gin entrust her Roza Mystica to Shinku and how she adviced Megu to not call herself a junk showed, in her own distinctive way, that she trust Shinku to do the right thing and that Gin herself is sorry for what had happened. The only character in Ouverture that got some "hate" points was actually Souseiseki. She was quite a stubborn bastard. On a side note for Souseiseki... she talks about wishing to complete Rozen's dream. Her wish to complete that and to not dissatisfy Rozen is the main reason she participate in the Alice Game. However, does anyone find that funny? I doubt even if Souseiseki could defeat everyone, she would be able to become Alice... mainly because I heavily doubt she would lay her hands on Suiseiseki. As can be seen in Traumend's episode 8 and 9, it is obvious she has a very huge soft spot for Suiseiseki due to the fact they are twin sisters... despite of Suiseiseki's threats, Souseiseki just pushed her away and refused to do what Suiseiseki ask of her... even if it'd be plain easy to take her first step to complete Rozen's dream by disabling Suiseiseki first. On another note, does anyone find Souseiseki's power difference to be extremely different? Comparing her abilities in Ouverture and Traumend... Suigintou had such an easy job finishing Souseiseki... and Sou was also a lot more reckless in this battle. However, in Ouverture, she was able to stand on equal footing when fighting against Shinku and her tactics are a lot more practical. It really couldn't be her medium, since on both eras, her mediums are rather weak and not exactly in the best physical condition. As some have pointed out earlier about Souseiseki... I wonder if it is really she going on a suicide run, so one of the dolls would become Alice to satisfy Rozen's dream... even if Alice won't be her.
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Last edited by MaxwellDemon; 2007-11-11 at 17:40. |
2007-12-02, 09:40 | Link #734 | ||||
Die Treppe
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But then again, it is only a theory. And Boku in the manga is a MUCH. MORE. TERRIBLE. BASTARD. than in the anime. Bless you anime watchers. (but manga-Boku still gets many lovers, people like half-villain-ish jerks these days ). Quote:
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2007-12-02, 10:42 | Link #735 | ||
"Bi?!" BI?!
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Oct 2007
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That was my original question. Read my first post to learn my theory and why I asked that question. I already know the entire because they were legally defeated, which is still very misplaced however you put it. Quote:
But why would she not fight with her whole power in such a crucial stage? Doesn't quite made sense.
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2007-12-02, 14:26 | Link #736 | |||||
~ You're dead ^__^* ~
Graphic Designer
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because this is in the past, we have yet to see how shinku develops to be more considerate, which is a flaw in her character (rude, and snobby like most oujo sama types). Quote:
shinku may think that she is doing the caring thing by leaving gin sama with that kid...but imo she made another huge mistake. she knows how obssessed gin sama is towards rozen because really...rozen is the sole reason she exists, i duno how shinku could think that everything would be all right if she just abandon her. the right way would be to take with gin sama about the situation - may not be effective but it would have helped ease the pain to follow... Quote:
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also shouldnt we be ignoring shinku's development in S1 and S2 watching this? things that happen in the future is a direct consequence of what happened in the past. in this case shinku caused gin sama to turn "evil". yep shinku apologised to gin sama for calling her junk in S2 and rightly so we didnt hear a response, but you have to look to see that being "friendly" isnt part of gin sama's character. she prefers action to words which is why we see gin sama repaying those feelings by saving shinku from bara Quote:
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2007-12-02, 16:43 | Link #737 | |||
"Bi?!" BI?!
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Unfortunately, Shinku being "rude and snobby", even if her main personality traits are no longer that as shown in serious episodes, is part of the humor of Rozen Maiden. It is almost like a running gag. So, unfortunately, despite of how much character development Shinku gets, that "snobby and rude" trait she has for her "servants" will never go away as the creator probably don't want to kill off one of the things used for humor yet. I mean, we all jokingly tease our friends in a casual situation. Does that mean part of our personality is arrogant? XD Quote:
Again, it is very easy for us to criticize Shinku because we KNOW what is going to happen. However, if all of us are THAT amazing in judging situation and how they present themselves. I bet a lot of misunderstanding that is created upon our own affairs wouldn't even exist in the first place. Quote:
Just to make myself clear, I don't favor Shinku or Suigintou, they are both very equal (and very high) on my book. Just so I don't sound like very anti-Suigintou because I am defending Shinku's action in Rozen Maiden.
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2007-12-02, 17:14 | Link #738 |
Keine is moo.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Ohio
Age: 42
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Mainly I just have an issue with the claims I've seen elsewhere of people saying Ouverture "converted" them from liking Shinku to liking Gin instead. I mean, it's rather obvious how Ouverture reinforces the feelings of people who have always loved Gin and hated Shinku, but I just don't see how people could suddenly stop liking Shinku because of Ouverture. If one already liked Shinku with her personality in the first two seasons, I don't really see any difference in Ouverture that would change things. I felt like I must have been watching a different version or something based on what I had heard about how horrible Shinku was.
Like I said in the favorite character thread, I don't have anything against Gin; like most everybody, I liked her more after Traumend and Ouverture even if she isn't my favorite... I just feel the need to defend Shinku against what seems like a misguided surge of hate after Ouverture |
2007-12-02, 18:36 | Link #739 | ||
~ You're dead ^__^* ~
Graphic Designer
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well it just goes to show that there are various views to a situation.
classic example of a gray area really... those who favor gin sama will try and pick holes in shinku and vice versa, those who favor shinku will protect her. normally i would be one of the neutral ones, defending both parties either way depending on the weight of each side. i too hate seeing a one sided battle. but in this case gin sama is mai wifu so naturally whatever i say is in her best interest the "converted" bit is a bit extreme though i agree...changing your favorite shouldnt really be that simply so i think it is more sympathy than favorism (but those feelings are mistaken). ^^ Quote:
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you cant "act" a personality without it becoming part of you. (and soon you will know the horrible truth...)
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2007-12-02, 21:29 | Link #740 | |||
Die Treppe
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Rozen never tells the dolls to "start over", he even told Shinku in the MIDDLE of the Game era about other ways to be Alice (maybe "and so Shinku, please continue with this condition but I just can't stand seeing my little daughters die any more thank you", or whatever) Or there is a possibility that he changed his mind in the middle of the Game after two of his dolls had fallen, but there isn't any obligation for him to revive the dolls that had fallen legally according to the previous rules right? and although there is definitely a way to be Alice without defeating other sisters, some rules of the Alice Game don't vanish: dolls will "die" when their Roza Mysticas are taken, etc. and Kira might probably use this fact to get her sisters to "play" in the next season. And sorry if my explanation is weird or rude, I'm still half-asleep typing this... Quote:
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adventure, comedy, drama, fantasy, nomad, ova, peach-pit, seinen, sequel, supernatural |
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