Medaka Box [Manga]

[MD84]

Fighting villains like the Major is always a hassle, since they take pleasure from the fight itself rather than working for any real goal. Even worse are the villains who actually want to be killed and do horrible things to force the heroes to do just that. I'm looking at you, Final Fantasy XIII.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

She just wants things to be interesting. Period. Whether Zenkichi becomes stronger or not, defeats her or not is unimportant or at most a very minor side-effect. She's a lot like the major in hellsing in this respect, except whereas the major seemed to thrive from war, she thrives from battle.

Again, that's like saying hellsing was helping the Major by fighting against him in a war that he wanted. -_- I'm not really sure that's logical.

How did you come to the conclusion that Medaka just wants things to be "interesting"? The reason that Medaka is encouraging Zen to get stronger is for the same reason that Medaka encourages anybody--because she wants to help them. And helping people is Medaka's life purpose. I mean, sure, it's damned lucky that Medaka "thrives" from her life purpose and finds pushing people to improve themselves to be interesting--but this doesn't take away from the goodwill and intention behind it. From the time she found her purpose, Medaka has always lived her life for the sake of other people. This hasn't changed now; in fact, it's truer than it was at the start of the manga.


Anyway, a short tangent in the discussion here. I generally don't like participating in random speculation, but since the whole "what is Zenkichi's new ability???" question got hyped up by the manga intentionally I am willing to throw in some arbitrary guesses for the sake of potential bragging rights, lol. After some slight consideration, here's an initial one: Zenkichi asked for the ability to switch places with people, not just see through their perspective (Captain Ginyu, anyone? lol). Not only would this give him the ability to defeat anybody stronger than him, it would also allow him to force others to see a "normal" guy's perspective. Effective on two fronts, it would make battles less about winning and losing. Additionally, I think fighting through this sort of methodology could potentially be said to walk all over traditional values of "Hard Work, Friendship, and Victory". Of all the kinds of requests for power which could potentially shock Ajimu regarding becoming a Main Character, I think that this might be one of them.

[evil|plushie]

Sol, I understand you have some obsessive need to defend Medaka. I don't know why. But as it is, Medaka herself says it's more interesting to have Zenkichi as an enemy in chapter 118 not because she wants to help him. You might be thinking of pre-genre shift Medaka, who actually seemed to be okay with helping people normally (normally as in not beating their faces in) but the Medaka of the past few chapters seems to be quite different from what she started out as originally.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Sol, I understand you have some obsessive need to defend Medaka. I don't know why. But as it is, Medaka herself says it's more interesting to have Zenkichi as an enemy in chapter 118 not because she wants to help him. You might be thinking of pre-genre shift Medaka, who actually seemed to be okay with helping people normally (normally as in not beating their faces in) but the Medaka of the past few chapters seems to be quite different from what she started out as originally.

In what way does the Medaka of now seem different from the Medakas that faced Unzen, Miyakonojou, or Kumagawa? lol. If you base your entire interpretation off one line from chapter 118, well up until chapter 117 and even afterwards Medaka was still all about helping people, wasn't she? Think of both the content of all her conversations with Ajimu, as well as the lesson Medaka intended to communicate with the Treasure Hunt. And where does congratulating Akune for becoming a man who can stand up to her for the sake of helping out another person, exactly play into a personality that is just looking to fight or for "something interesting"? You bullshitted before that this was because Akune is small-fry and Medaka doesn't care about him, but even though you deliberately ignored Medaka's statements to the otherwise during the Treasure Hunt arc, you can't play that card even now after Ajimu and Zenkichi himself acknowledged him as their second biggest threat, right? Face it, this manga's characters as a whole are more complicated than your simple-minded reductions can describe about them.

This has not been a "defense" of Medaka, btw. I'm just telling you how your interpretation is "wrong", :P.

[MD84]

I still think Medaka wants to help people. But she definitely seems to enjoy fighting for its own sake as well. And if she does seem different, that could be charitably called character development.

That said, regardless of motives, I don't approve of some of the things she has done in this arc, and I don't think readers are supposed to approve. I admit that it's partly due to my bias as a Zenkichi fan -- though I also have some concerns about him accepting help from freaking Ajimu, the only character in this series that I think is truly evil or at least amoral and manipulative -- but I just don't think we're supposed to be cheering Medaka on in this particular case. And I do like Medaka, believe it or not. I never took the accusations of Mary Sueness seriously (that term is overused) and didn't really have any problems with her actions until chapter 115. Yes, it is possible to be a fan of a character without trying to show all of their actions in the best possible light.

And let's face it, Medaka would make a pretty awesome endboss villain. She's already one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, character in the series. Chapter 124 reminded us of just how crazy powerful she is.

@Sol_Falling:

What exactly is your interpretation of that line in Chapter 118?

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

In what way does the Medaka of now seem different from the Medakas that faced Unzen, Miyakonojou, or Kumagawa? lol. If you base your entire interpretation off one line from chapter 118, well up until chapter 117 and even afterwards Medaka was still all about helping people, wasn't she? Think of both the content of all her conversations with Ajimu, as well as the lesson Medaka intended to communicate with the Treasure Hunt. And where does congratulating Akune for becoming a man who can stand up to her for the sake of helping out another person, exactly play into a personality that is just looking to fight or for "something interesting"? You bullshitted before that this was because Akune is small-fry and Medaka doesn't care about him, but even though you deliberately ignored Medaka's statements to the otherwise during the Treasure Hunt arc, you can't play that card even now after Ajimu and Zenkichi himself acknowledged him as their second biggest threat, right? Face it, this manga's characters as a whole are more complicated than your simple-minded reductions can describe about them.

This has not been a "defense" of Medaka, btw. I'm just telling you how your interpretation is "wrong", :P.

Lol, I said pre-genre shift. You know, before her helping people became about beating people; often sometimes the same people she's trying to help. Back when the manga was about finding lost dogs etc etc. And considering you think the genre shift started after she already starting beating things down, I'm just going to disregard the rest of your post. tl;dr

As for Akune, is it going to be more interesting if he helped her OR opposed her? I mean your argument is that Akune is not a small fry and Medaka would find it interesting to fight him and yet you're saying Medaka doesn't do things just to make things interesting because she congratulated him on deciding to oppose her, which will probably end up with him fighting her. Sol, make up your mind.

For that matter, when did Ajimu and Zenkichi say Akune was their 2nd biggest threat. Shouldn't that be, you know, Kumagawa??

[MD84]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

For that matter, when did Ajimu and Zenkichi say Akune was their 2nd biggest threat. Shouldn't that be, you know, Kumagawa??

In chapter 122, Zenkichi pointed out that Akune and Medaka would be a formidable team. He refers to Akune as the most important threat, at least if paired up with Medaka. He thought Ajimu forgot about Akune, but it turns out she didn't, and that she may have predicted Akune joining them.

This of course can be justified by their experiences. Zenkichi would think of Akune as a potentially greater threat if paired up with Medaka, and Ajimu is probably justified in being wary of Kumagawa, the guy who tore her face off and sealed her off from reality for years.

Edit:

I wonder how long it will take for Zenkichi and Mukae to defeat Ajimu in the dreamworld. My guess is about a hundred years or so, based on Medaka's statement that it would take Zenkichi a century to reach her level.

[evil|plushie]

Ah. Although I don't really understand how Zenkichi thinks Akune is more important than Kumagawa, but then again, Akune probably wins more frequently.

[MD84]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Ah. Although I don't really understand how Zenkichi thinks Akune is more important than Kumagawa, but then again, Akune probably wins more frequently.

Possibly because Akune was pre-genreshift, also a potential romantic rival too (and doesn't like the idea of Akune and Medaka being all alone together). Even now Akune still has a bit of a torch for Medaka. Zenkichi is a bit biased. Kumagawa is "just" Zenkichi's personal bogeyman.

If we're talking raw combat ability, Akune might not be at Kumagawa's level, but he's no slouch either. He's a combat pragmatist and judo expert who was able to copy Zenkichi's trademark stomp and Kikaijima's scream. And unlike Kumagawa, Akune can actually win.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by MD84

I still think Medaka wants to help people. But she definitely seems to enjoy fighting for its own sake as well. And if she does seem different, that could be charitably called character development.

That said, regardless of motives, I don't approve of some of the things she has done in this arc, and I don't think readers are supposed to approve. I admit that it's partly due to my bias as a Zenkichi fan -- though I also have some concerns about him accepting help from freaking Ajimu, the only character in this series that I think is truly evil or at least amoral and manipulative -- but I just don't think we're supposed to be cheering Medaka on in this particular case. And I do like Medaka, believe it or not. I never took the accusations of Mary Sueness seriously (that term is overused) and didn't really have any problems with her actions until chapter 115. Yes, it is possible to be a fan of a character without trying to show all of their actions in the best possible light.

And let's face it, Medaka would make a pretty awesome endboss villain. She's already one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful, character in the series. Chapter 124 reminded us of just how crazy powerful she is.

I agree that Medaka genuinely enjoys fighting. That's the one form of selfishness that she has allowed. Zenkichi told her himself: to make others happy, she first has to make herself happy. None of this takes away from Medaka's genuine desire to help people, though, as it was that desire to help people that lead Medaka to enjoy being challenged or fighting people in the first place (see: the apathetic Medaka at age 2, or Medaka Mk. II who had been brainwashed).

I think Ajimu makes a plenty awesome villain. Kumagawa before her as well. Between Medaka and Ajimu, do you disagree that Medaka currently looks to be the underdog? I can't really imagine what form it'd take, but if Medaka remains the main, isn't it possible for even more awesome villains to show up? I've said it before, but I've always liked each of Medaka Box's villains (minus maybe Miyakonojou) nearly as much as I like Medaka. If more brilliant personalities can keep on showing up, I'd gladly take Medaka always being the main character.

I don't look at Medaka in the "best" possible light. I try to look at her in the most "sympathetic" light possible. And I generally do this for each and every character, except Kumagawa/Ajimu at the start before I figured out that it was possible. If you go back in the thread, you can find a long post by me feeling terrible for Zen after being abandoned by Medaka and cornered by Ajimu. The only reason I've been a jackass to Zen fans is because generally they've been true jackasses to Medaka in return.

edit:

What exactly is your interpretation of that line in Chapter 118?

My interpretation of Medaka's "it's more interesting to have Zenkichi as an enemy" line was that Medaka had given up on helping Zenkichi as an ally or friend. Remember that Medaka was surprised that Zenkichi's reason for attacking her was Ajimu. She thought that was something driven by his own volition, in response to her reprimand after his first failure after the Treasure Hunt. After Zenkichi failed/rebelled against Medaka's good intentions twice, why would she not accept the idea of helping him grow like she has all her other enemies? After all, in Medaka's mind, her enemies and allies are valued the same (or rather, one could say: in fact, Medaka's true allies might be her [former] "enemies" alone.).

[MD84]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I think Ajimu makes a plenty awesome villain. Kumagawa before her as well. Between Medaka and Ajimu, do you disagree that Medaka currently looks to be the underdog? I can't really imagine what form it'd take, but if Medaka remains the main, isn't it possible for even more awesome villains to show up? I've said it before, but I've always liked each of Medaka Box's villains (minus maybe Miyakonojou) nearly as much as I like Medaka. If more brilliant personalities can keep on showing up, I'd gladly take Medaka always being the main character.

At this point in the series, Medaka is the strongest character in the series. Keep in mind that Ajimu is still half-sealed. Then there's that whole "MC" thing going on that theoretically would give Medaka the win regardless of Ajimu's powers.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I don't look at Medaka in the "best" possible light. I try to look at her in the most "sympathetic" light possible. And I generally do this for each and every character, except Kumagawa/Ajimu at the start before I figured out that it was possible. If you go back in the thread, you can find a long post by me feeling terrible for Zen after being abandoned by Medaka and cornered by Ajimu. The only reason I've been a jackass to Zen fans is because generally they've been true jackasses to Medaka in return.

"Sympathetic" and "best" aren't too different. And you tried to paint Medaka's beating of Zenkichi as a good thing. That goes beyond sympathetic. I for one refuse to sympathize with that act no matter the motives behind it.

Still, at least you admit to being a jackass to Zen fans.

[ShiroiRyu]

Spoiler for 124:

That look badass.
And fuck yeah, good kiss !

[MD84]

Originally Posted by ShiroiRyu

Spoiler for 124:

That look badass.
And fuck yeah, good kiss !

Yes, yes it was. Loved Mukae's immediate violent jealous reaction too.

And while I'm not the biggest Medaka fan at the moment, I do agree that Medaka defeating an opponent after all of her bones were broken is impressive, if not a little scary.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Lol, I said pre-genre shift. You know, before her helping people became about beating people; often sometimes the same people she's trying to help. Back when the manga was about finding lost dogs etc etc. And considering you think the genre shift started after she already starting beating things down, I'm just going to disregard the rest of your post. tl;dr

A six-sentence paragraph is tl;dr . I'm sorry, I couldn't imagine that you were talking about a pre-Unzen genre shift--because you were talking about Medaka's motivation recently changing to no longer being to help people, when this has been the core character trait at the heart of her development for 124 chapters.

As for Akune, is it going to be more interesting if he helped her OR opposed her? I mean your argument is that Akune is not a small fry and Medaka would find it interesting to fight him and yet you're saying Medaka doesn't do things just to make things interesting because she congratulated him on deciding to oppose her, which will probably end up with him fighting her. Sol, make up your mind.

Akune going to Zen's side does not mean he will be fighting anybody. Obviously he is not going to interfere in the fight between Zenkichi and Medaka, as that would defeat the whole point. If Medaka were truly interested in just fighting Akune, she would have smashed his face into the ground the moment he stood against her, just like she did when Zenkichi did. Medaka's support of Akune had nothing to do with fighting him or not fighting him at all.

Originally Posted by MD84

At this point in the series, Medaka is the strongest character in the series. Keep in mind that Ajimu is still half-sealed. Then there's that whole "MC" thing going on that theoretically would give Medaka the win regardless of Ajimu's powers.

All the same, you yourself speak of the feeling that the whole world is ganging up on Medaka. The very point of Ajimu's plan is to displace Medaka's position as MC; with everything going so well for Ajimu, how can anyone not feel that Medaka is under fire? I felt genuinely relieved reading chapter 124, because it reassured me that Medaka is still the person I thought she was. People are rooting for Medaka to lose because the mangaka has successfully convinced them that it's possible--with all the hype surrounding Zenkichi's new abilities and Ajimu's plans for him, how can Medaka not feel like an underdog?

"Sympathetic" and "best" aren't too different. And you tried to paint Medaka's beating of Zenkichi as a good thing. That goes beyond sympathetic. I for one refuse to sympathize with that act no matter the motives behind it.

My answer to this, and I mean this completely seriously, is just look at it from Zenkichi's perspective. There were two people involved in that fight, and they were Zenkichi and Medaka. One weakened herself so she could go all out to fight him. And the other did not fight back at all. Of all the anger, tears, and condemnation that followed, did any of that come from Zenkichi himself? No, just his "fans", right? To justify all of their rage against Medaka, all of them ran to pile up behind Kikaijima (funny how, then, after Kikaijima started up a "third force" to stand up for that very sentiment--that it is and was wrong for Medaka and Zenkichi to fight each other--she's actually now received a lot of hate from them). The way Zenkichi took from his beating by Medaka was just a symbol of his own weakness. It was something he asked for, and he took it like a man. He's using it as part of his motivation for his determination to reforge himself--he probably feels it to his very core. If you can't sympathize with Medaka beating Zen for Medaka's sake, can't you sympathize with it for, after all, Zenkichi himself? In the end, this is something he wants for himself.

[MD84]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

All the same, you yourself speak of the feeling that the whole world is ganging up on Medaka. The very point of Ajimu's plan is to displace Medaka's position as MC. With everything going so well for Ajimu, how can anyone not feel that Medaka is under fire? People are rooting for Medaka to lose because the mangaka has successfully convinced them that it's possible. Medaka genuinely does feel like the underdog to me here.

I still think Zenkichi is the bigger underdog in this situation. In a Medaka vs. Zenkichi scenario, he definitely has a ways to go. And if what Tsurubame said is true, then she's actually stronger without allies.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

My answer to this, and I mean this completely seriously, is just look at it from Zenkichi's perspective. There were two people involved in that fight, and they were Zenkichi and Medaka. One weakened herself so she could go all out to fight him. And the other did not fight back at all. Of all the anger, tears, and condemnation that followed, did any of that come from Zenkichi himself? No, just his "fans", right? To justify all of their rage against Medaka, all of them ran to pile up behind Kikaijima (funny how, then, after Kikaijima started up a "third force" to stand up for that very sentiment--that it was and is wrong for Medaka and Zenkichi to fight each other--she's actually now received a lot of hate from Zenkichi fans). The way Zenkichi took from his beating by Medaka was just a symbol of his own weakness. And he asked for it, and he took it like a man. He's using it as motivation for his determination to reforge himself. If you can't sympathize with Medaka beating Zen for Medaka's sake, can't you sympathize with it for, after all, Zenkichi himself?

Yes, he took his lumps like a man and koed himself before he could blame someone else. He kept his pride intact. But I won't sympathize with Medaka slamming his head into the ground when his back was turned followed by beating him bloody in response to him saying she was wrong. I don't care how good her motives were, or that she was holding back, that wasn't right. And if your interpretation is correct, that means Medaka basically beat Zenkichi's lingering feelings for her (which kept him from fighting back) out of him. Yeesh.

I still like Kikaijima because she has her heart in the right place. I believe things have reached a point that the third faction's goal is unrealistic, but it's the most idealistic goal. The only thing I don't like about Kikaijima is her infatuation with Kumagawa -- he's just too creepy even as a good guy. Though TBF I've always been scared of him ever since he blinded Zenkichi (loss of eyesight is a primal fear of mine).

[Not Somebody]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

The only reason I've been a jackass to Zen fans is because generally they've been true jackasses to Medaka in return.

edit:



My interpretation of Medaka's "it's more interesting to have Zenkichi as an enemy" line was that Medaka had given up on helping Zenkichi as an ally or friend. Remember that Medaka was surprised that Zenkichi's reason for attacking her was Ajimu. She thought that was something driven by his own volition, in response to her reprimand after his first failure after the Treasure Hunt. After Zenkichi failed/rebelled against Medaka's good intentions twice, why would she not accept the idea of helping him grow like she has all her other enemies? After all, in Medaka's mind, her enemies and allies are valued the same (or rather, one could say: in fact, Medaka's true allies might be her [former] "enemies" alone.).

Two wrongs don't make a right. If you have the "right" opinion, why drag it through the dirt, instead of taking the high road?

Also, I think you're ignoring Zen actually choosing to rebel against her. Ajimu may have destroyed his other paths, and constructed the scenario, but it was Zen who pushed himself down that path. It doesnt matter if there's only one choice, you can still choose not to do it. Also, see where Zen punched himself because he was being excused for his actions because of Ajimu. They were his actions, and he chose to do them, so he owned up to that and refused to make excuses, and punched himself in the face so he wouldnt. I felt like overclarifying this point. It does seem a little like Medaka thinks he's just being manipulated by Ajimu though, but he is most definitely there opposing her of his own accord.

[MD84]

This is exactly why Akune is supporting Zenkichi. Though he himself also has feelings for Medaka, as a man he sympathizes with Zenkichi's decision to live for himself instead of for Medaka. Ajimu railroaded Zenkichi into this path, but he ultimately decided to follow it instead of abandoning it altogether. A decision that I don't think was an entirely good idea, since cooperating with someone like Ajimu is really dangerous, but I digress.

[kingstonbeer]

Its just that most readers will support zenkichi because they'll feel he was backed into a corner by ajimu but not support medaka because they thought she'd take the high road towards the fight

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

A six-sentence paragraph is tl;dr . I'm sorry, I couldn't imagine that you were talking about a pre-Unzen genre shift--because you were talking about Medaka's motivation recently changing to no longer being to help people, when this has been the core character trait at the heart of her development for 124 chapters.

It was more like nr;cbbtr but I doubt anyone can understand that stands for not relevant, couldn't be bothered to read. And I said pre-genre shift, which really has nothing to do with Medaka's recent motivation since there hasn't been a recent genre shift. Battle manga is still battle manga.

Akune going to Zen's side does not mean he will be fighting anybody. Obviously he is not going to interfere in the fight between Zenkichi and Medaka, as that would defeat the whole point. If Medaka were truly interested in just fighting Akune, she would have smashed his face into the ground the moment he stood against her, just like she did when Zenkichi did. Medaka's support of Akune had nothing to do with fighting him or not fighting him at all.

Who knows why Medaka didn't beat up Akune straight away. Do you? Even hipster guy commented on it. Although it's probably because Akune wouldn't really come away from a beating the same way Zenkichi would.

All the same, you yourself speak of the feeling that the whole world is ganging up on Medaka. The very point of Ajimu's plan is to displace Medaka's position as MC; with everything going so well for Ajimu, how can anyone not feel that Medaka is under fire? I felt genuinely relieved reading chapter 124, because it reassured me that Medaka is still the person I thought she was. People are rooting for Medaka to lose because the mangaka has successfully convinced them that it's possible--with all the hype surrounding Zenkichi's new abilities and Ajimu's plans for him, how can Medaka not feel like an underdog?

Medaka is still the monster you thought she was? Also, the irony is that Medaka does better when she's alone while Ajimu; supposedly the big bad, needs the help of other people. Lol.

My answer to this, and I mean this completely seriously, is just look at it from Zenkichi's perspective. There were two people involved in that fight, and they were Zenkichi and Medaka. One weakened herself so she could go all out to fight him. And the other did not fight back at all. Of all the anger, tears, and condemnation that followed, did any of that come from Zenkichi himself? No, just his "fans", right? To justify all of their rage against Medaka, all of them ran to pile up behind Kikaijima (funny how, then, after Kikaijima started up a "third force" to stand up for that very sentiment--that it is and was wrong for Medaka and Zenkichi to fight each other--she's actually now received a lot of hate from them). The way Zenkichi took from his beating by Medaka was just a symbol of his own weakness. It was something he asked for, and he took it like a man. He's using it as part of his motivation for his determination to reforge himself--he probably feels it to his very core. If you can't sympathize with Medaka beating Zen for Medaka's sake, can't you sympathize with it for, after all, Zenkichi himself? In the end, this is something he wants for himself.

I thought Kikaijima's faction was 'lets all be one happy Student council together' and wanted to enact that plan by....you know, beating everyone up. Which actually makes no sense. It's like Lacus's faction in gundam seed.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Not Somebody

Two wrongs don't make a right. If you have the "right" opinion, why drag it through the dirt, instead of taking the high road?

Haha. Just like Medaka, I'm not perfect. I can't help it if sometimes convincing a person gently just seems to huge a task, or I just want to shut someone up somehow. The people who always speak evenly and respectfully are the real individuals I respect on this forum. Frankly, I'm not yet that good.

Also, I think you're ignoring Zen actually choosing to rebel against her. Ajimu may have destroyed his other paths, and constructed the scenario, but it was Zen who pushed himself down that path. It doesnt matter if there's only one choice, you can still choose not to do it. Also, see where Zen punched himself because he was being excused for his actions because of Ajimu. They were his actions, and he chose to do them, so he owned up to that and refused to make excuses, and punched himself in the face so he wouldnt. I felt like overclarifying this point. It does seem a little like Medaka thinks he's just being manipulated by Ajimu though, but he is most definitely there opposing her of his own accord.

I agree completely with you there. Zenkichi chose his path, owned up to it, and is staying there of his own accord. I don't think knowing that Ajimu was behind it made Medaka take Zen or their upcoming battle any less seriously. Rather, I think the knowledge that Ajimu led him there was just the answer to one of the mysteries Medaka had about Zen's behaviour. I think, Medaka clearly did not expect Zenkichi's declaration of rebellion when he made it to her. She was shocked, and perhaps even responded too enthusiastically. Tsurubami has been putting words in her mouth, and calling Medaka a loner, but to be honest I think that Medaka never wanted to be truly alone. She just wants friends, but ones that are truly independent of her--so that she can pour her heart into supporting them and also depending on them without worrying about whether they are being smothered by her own personality.