Aquarion EVOL - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[finalfury]

Shrade is probably not gonna die since Kawamori=Troll Director, Nuff Said.

[Triple_R]

One thing I forgot to mention is that it was good to see Kagura finally "win" for a change. Even if his "victory" ends up being short-lived, at least he successfully made off with his "wench" this time.

[miketyson]

Well I came back from a nice family vacation and finally got to se this episode. I see everyone's been talking and curious what everyone's saying, but want to get my raw reaction out before I see what other people think. The tl;dr: wow, must frustrating follow-up episode I can remember. Usually shows save *this* episode for the finale, , but we have 4 more episodes to go.

My take: this show's definitely not well written, but as infuriating a follow-up to episode 21 as this episode turned out to be I think it cements my sense that EVOL is going to pass a very harsh verdict on its predecessor's own mythology. That is: the eventual takeaway seems like it's going to be that this whole idea of reincarnated lovers chasing each other over the millennia is flat-out wrong or misguided -- understandable, of course, but still misguided -- perhaps because Kawamori's changed his personal outlook over the course of the intervening years.

Spoiler for Details, spoiled for length:

Prediction/Conjecture: my hunch at this point is that if the writers had their druthers, they'd have written the show to make it clearer we're not really supposed to think highly of all three of the Amata-Kagura-Mikono trio...probably since right after episode 15. But, for some reason -- presumably reasons of commercial viability and entertainment levels -- they instead couldn't make either Amata too explicitly unlikable too soon, and couldn't work in much screentime for Kagura until recently, and so here we are: we're finally seeing them as the highly-flawed, emo-ish, borderline-losers they've been meant to be all this time, but it's coming out of nowhere because the writers have been afraid to show us what they *really* think up to this point.

Or at leads that's what I'd like to think. This show could just be badly written, or well-written but designed to troll everyone, or something.

Bullet-pointed reactions:

I can't get worked up over the Amata-Kagura conflict when it's framed in terms of fate. It's just hard to get excited about for met because of the way the Amata-Kagura's split has been framed. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not (I could see a case Kagura's the more interesting of the two on this front since he's done more to distance himself from his initial identity).

Mikono is either horribly written, meant to be really frustrating, or just horribly conceived. Unless I get a left-field surprise on this show she -- and really this show -- might become my go-to example for why it's not a good idea to tie romantic choices directly to thematic choices. They can still interrelate a bit, but it'd have been so much better if it was more like there was some separation between major thematic choices and romantic choices, because unless handled well it really undermines their character.

Zessica: well, I think I see what her role is, and I am patting myself on the back a bit for seemingly not being too far off after last week. If this really is meant to be a down-on-his-own-mythos story, and all three of Amata, Kagura, and Mikono are involved in that mythos, you need at least one major character outside of the mythos to do anything interesting, and Zessica's seemingly meant for that role.

It looks like she's the one to pilot the aquarion -- which, again, makes sense, because the aquarion would presumably pick someone outside of previous legend, because it wants to do something different, or at least have some outside influence step in and settle this stupid dispute -- which seemingly gives her a very important role in the story.

Which, in turn, means it's too bad that the way her character's being handled is walking a pretty fine line between "painfully pitiable" to "laughably pathetic"...if the last minute or so didn't just go over that line (it di for me).

I think that's a bit unclear so I'll try a restatement: if we take the following as granted: (a) Zessica's role in the story is getting chosen by Aquarion to resolve this stupid dispute and (b) we're pretty much not meant to sympathize *that* much with Amata, Kagura, and Mikono at this point, it seems that Zessica's supposed to be some kind of "yardstick" to help put the the other three leads in perspective... but if that's the intent she's been so thoroughly undermined lately that it's not working.

And, finally: if episode 21 recapitulated episodes 1+2 it's interesting that that continues through episode 22, which *somewhat* like a version of episode 5+6 that has Kagura succeed...we're right back to Amata, Schrade, and Zessica hunting him down.

Not what I expected, not leaving me excited for next week, felt like your typical anime's rushed finale episode more than anything.

[mayumi]

You know I am not even sure if kagura really believed that his destiny was mikono as much ad mikage mindfucked him to believe it. The only thing true about Kagura might be not forgwtting Silvia's scent.
I believe whether light or dark half of amata/apollo, both would choose to like silvia's reincarnation for who she is. Apollo's entire soul believed that so why would dark amata think like kagura does if not for mindfuck?

Also liking mikono for who she is, is a apollo like personality.

[Triple_R]

Honestly, if this show is trying to say something concrete about "fate", or "reuniting with past loves from previous lives", then it's coming across as a huge, jumbled mess to me.

A couple key points here:

1) For the life of me, I honestly can't tell the difference between Mykage's goals and Fudo's goals. In fact, they often seem to be after the same thing, and for the same reason. Also, as other posters have pointed out, Fudo basically stood back and did nothing while Mykage and Kagura both successfully captured what they were after. Maybe that's all part of some brilliant chess game that Fudo is playing against Mykage, but from a viewer's perspective, it's not easy to see what's the major philosophical differences between Fudo and Mykage. And this is problematic since most of the actual spoken philosophy we get in this show comes from one of these two.

2) It's not like Amata, Kagura, Mikono, or Zessica have taken clear, consistent stands on "fate" or "reincarnated lovers should/should not get back together". Yes, they've had a few words to say on it, but nothing clear-cut and easy to piece together. It's not like, say, how a lot of the major characters in Madoka Magica were handled, were their philosophies and viewpoints were pretty clear and well fleshed-out. If you were to evaluate AKMZ's respective stances on "fate" and "reincarnated lovers", this would seem to be it, I think...

Amata: Gosh, I'm so in love with Mikono. If that's fate, then so be it. If that's not fate, then I'll fight it! But fated or not, I want to be with Mikono no matter what. Other girls make me fly, but Mikono is the only girl I want to be with.

Kagura: I want Mikono and I to kill each other, all. night. long! Fated things tend to happen, so I want Mikono and I to be fated to be together!

Mikono: I must apologize to Kagura. Oh, I must apologize to him! I'm apparently getting subliminal messages from a past life about needing to apologize to Kagura. Other than that, though, I don't really care either way about this fated lovers/destiny thing. I know that I like Amata and he's a really nice guy, but Kagura sure turns me on...

Zessica: Yes, Kagura and Mikono are fated to be, so now I can be with Amata! ... Wait, no, that's lame of me. Fight fate, Amata, don't give in to it and become sad! I want you to be happy, Amata, because I love you...

That's basically it folks. I'm not seeing a theme on fate here, that's for sure.


Also, while Amata and Mikono are certainly not faultless in all of this, I don't think either one has done a whole lot wrong, per se. I don't personally see them as particularly unlikeable, just as very emotionally-driven but generally wanting to do the "right thing" as they perceive it. Mikono could be handling her Kagura fascination a bit better, but I'm not sure she's entirely at fault there (again, she seems to be getting something akin to subliminal messages from the past when it comes to Kagura).

Honestly, I found Amata kind of inspiring in parts of this episode. If this was just Amata vs. Kagura for Mikono, and Zessica wasn't in the show, I can't help but think that a lot of viewers would consider Amata a great hot-blooded male lead that will stop at nothing to rescue the girl he loves and be with her.

His response to seeing Zessica alive again was a bit underwhelming, admittedly, but the circumstances of seeing her alive again for the first time weren't the most conducive to a big tearful reunion either.

[Zuul]

Originally Posted by miketyson

Well I came back from a nice family vacation and finally got to se this episode. I see everyone's been talking and curious what everyone's saying, but want to get my raw reaction out before I see what other people think. The tl;dr: wow, must frustrating follow-up episode I can remember. Usually shows save *this* episode for the finale, , but we have 4 more episodes to go.

My take: this show's definitely not well written, but as infuriating a follow-up to episode 21 as this episode turned out to be I think it cements my sense that EVOL is going to pass a very harsh verdict on its predecessor's own mythology. That is: the eventual takeaway seems like it's going to be that this whole idea of reincarnated lovers chasing each other over the millennia is flat-out wrong or misguided -- understandable, of course, but still misguided -- perhaps because Kawamori's changed his personal outlook over the course of the intervening years.

[SPOILER="Details, spoiled for length"]Prediction/Conjecture: my hunch at this point is that if the writers had their druthers, they'd have written the show to make it clearer we're not really supposed to think highly of all three of the Amata-Kagura-Mikono trio...probably since right after episode 15. But, for some reason -- presumably reasons of commercial viability and entertainment levels -- they instead couldn't make either Amata too explicitly unlikable too soon, and couldn't work in much screentime for Kagura until recently, and so here we are: we're finally seeing them as the highly-flawed, emo-ish, borderline-losers they've been meant to be all this time, but it's coming out of nowhere because the writers have been afraid to show us what they *really* think up to this point.

Or at leads that's what I'd like to think. This show could just be badly written, or well-written but designed to troll everyone, or something.

Bullet-pointed reactions:

I can't get worked up over the Amata-Kagura conflict when it's framed in terms of fate. It's just hard to get excited about for met because of the way the Amata-Kagura's split has been framed. I'm not sure if this is intentional or not (I could see a case Kagura's the more interesting of the two on this front since he's done more to distance himself from his in...

The trolling has reached epic proportion. Episode 21 was basically about what makes Zessica a better potential love interest than Mikono by mirroring their first encounter. Then next episode is Mikono saaaaaan without Amata having a though of grief over Zessica's death. We have even him copy pasting her words of comfort in an attempt at wooing Mikono who seems more touched by Kagura lewd proposition of fucking all night long...

You know they are trolling when the MC's love interest is shown wetting her panties only over the asshole rival. Apart from NTR fans, people won't be taking it to well.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Mikono: I must apologize to Kagura. Oh, I must apologize to him! I'm apparently getting subliminal messages from a past life about needing to apologize to Kagura. Other than that, though, I don't really care either way about this fated lovers/destiny thing. I know that I like Amata and he's a really nice guy, but Kagura sure turns me on...

Say what?!

Amata would have commit suicide if Mikono says this...

*Mikono thinking about pervert stuffs is confusing me

[Vena]

I think the problems in much of the central dynamic arise from the fact that Mikono is vague. Very, very, very vague. I cannot think of a reason, no matter how hard I try, as to why she couldn't tell Amata how she felt before going off on her trip with Fudo. The writers even have the gall to then not only tell us how she feels but have her report on how she feels bad about Zessica and Amata suffering. What the hell is this shit? The entire reason for Amata suffering is because he cannot get a straight answer from her regarding Kagura and what she thinks of Amata, and yet, moments after not telling Amata anything, she says that nonsense. And this isn't limited to one instance. Kagura is an elephant in the room that is never brought up unless the plot demands drama, otherwise Amata and Mikono will just flip back and forth between *Kagura, oh no!* and *Kagura, who's that?* at the drop of a hat.

Whatever happened to her dad? Oh, that's right. He was just PLOT to tell us why Mikono can't speak her mind so that, one episode later, when she cannot speak her mind we're supposed to sympathize.

Mikono is, simply, the plot pivot for the entire show around whom everything occurs because it must and because the writers deem it so. Who's the True Eve? Mikono. Who's going to save Altair? Mikono. Who does everyone focus on? Mikono. Who do the two main males only think about? Mikono. Who is Sylvia? Mikono. Who has the power to bring together the broken Amata? Mikono. Who helped awaken the Golden Aquarion by her mere grandiose presence? Mikono. Who is the key to the INFINITE POWER OF ZERO (where did this bullshit come out of all of a sudden anyway?)? Mikono.

You know what's even worse? Amata can be a good character and has shown that he is, when not afflicted with the disease of this show known as Mikono. (Kagura is just a throw away cardboard cut out.) He's a good guy, gets shit done as an MC, doesn't whine about having to fight or having to kill, helps his comrades, and does all the things that an MC would do. But the moment Mikono appears, he just outright becomes a different character. He becomes aggressive, angry, absorbed, and fanatically obsessive (if the rape dream wasn't a freakishly creepy give away). It's like... what the fuck? Are there two different people named Amata Sora, or am I losing my mind?

I've finally figured out Zessica's role in this story too:
~ Make Amata and Mikono realize they love one another. (Because they have no hope of accomplishing it otherwise, it seems.)
Last episode, when she was trying to find some happiness even if its in the future, Mykage blocked her because FATE IS BAD. This episode, when she think Amata is worrying about her, it turns out its Mykage. The precious thing that Amata found? (As Mykage said while pretending to be Amata, comforting Zessica.) His motivation to fight for Mikono because of who she is now, not who she was in the past! (Straight from Zessica and out of Amata's mouth.) And she even was awake by then to hear the real Amata say that outright. How sweet of him.

Somehow, though, the people writing this seem to have never realized that Amata/Kagura/Mikono are all swimmingly heading down the river of fate and the destined couple is going to end up together regardless of which part of Amata wins, and that the only person being the actual outsider (Zessica) to all the drama and actually trying to break the chains of reincarnations cannot accomplish anything for herself and only serves as a plot device to bridge the gap between the fated couple fighting fate by going along with fate. I just don't see how this is meant to be an aesop against reincarnations when, if you strip off all the fluff and cheesy lines, Apollo is going to end up with Sylvia, Apollonius with Celianne. (It is no less an awful display of characterization when the main characters are fighting over an undisclosed answer from Mikono about her feelings. They both come off as complete lunatics fighting over some prize in what effectively amounts to a dick measuring contest over who's reason is better and who's stronger. Its like two Silver-back Guerrilla's slamming into each other trying to figure out who's the better male while the female just sit off to the side and eats some bananas.)

This is why I said it would have been better to make Amata and Kagura into brothers, get rid of this whole *copy* nonsense in the story and give an actual meaning to *fighting off fate* and the *vice of reincarnations* by making Kagura outright the reincarnation of Apollo and Apollonius, and Amata into some normal dude who finds a girl and falls in love with her.

On a last note:
Why even introduce Zessica into this, I don't even bother trying to decipher anymore. Her plot device role could have been fulfilled by Andy, in fact it is being fulfilled by Andy. Just get rid of Zessica and have Andy, in mourning over MIX-Y, state with gusto that all that matters is who she/he is and that I love her/him irregardless of anything else! And there, point delivered, Amata gets his motivation, and we don't have this utterly bizarre Zessica character who's far easier to root for than your main female and yet utterly screwed over at every turn of the page. Just so that you have some third pilot for Aquarion doesn't require all the former nonsense at all, and even if it has to be Zessica, why make her love for Amata leagues and bounds more tangible than Mikono's?

No end can possibly be satisfying for Zessica (as a character, never mind as a person) at this point because she's been built as someone with so much pure love, that her entire life at this point revolves around Amata and making sure he's happy. Any end is either going to leave her character dead, unfulfilled and without her love, or broken (if she's not already there).

At this point, all I have left in me is a good, old "Fuck it." I'm going to rewatch Mashifony next Sunday before, during, and after the live stream of EVOL such that I can have a good laugh by comparison.

[mayumi]

I am sure if apollo and silvia saw what they become in evol they would root for not reincarnating even if they seperated. They good times together, but time to move on.
I really do wonder why EVOL had to be made. I personally liked the previous ending. It was not sad cause u could atleast imagine silvia and apollo did meet up. Not a indecisive, meek, saintly bitch version of silvia meeting obssessed with her amata.

[Zuul]

Originally Posted by Vena

I've finally figured out Zessica's role in this story too:
~ Make Amata and Mikono realize they love one another. (Because they have no hope of accomplishing it otherwise, it seems.)

She made an awful job at bringing the 2 lovebirds together though.

So far all she seems to have contributed to is making even more visible how much of a trainwreck their relations is.

[Qilin]

Huh. I never thought I'd be following this show this far, but here I am.

The cheesiness and the jokes have toned down considerably by this point, but I guess the PLOT and the characters have grown on me enough to care vaguely about what happens to them. Whatever the case, I'm pretty sure that the climax will top everything we've seen so far, so I'm content with just waiting quietly.

This is now looking like a story about true love transcending time, gender, space, and fate.

[Gohan78]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

1) For the life of me, I honestly can't tell the difference between Mykage's goals and Fudo's goals. In fact, they often seem to be after the same thing

We still don't know Mykage's goal but we know that he is seeking the Legendary Aquarion for some selfish reason. He flat out stated that he couldn't care less for Altair's fate.
Fudo works in mysterious ways but at least he cares for his people. Contrary to Mykage, he doesn't act directly in the conflict but lets his subordinates do the job. He is an observer and a guide: Acalanaatha. the Immovable.

Mikono: I must apologize to Kagura. Oh, I must apologize to him! I'm apparently getting subliminal messages from a past life about needing to apologize to Kagura. Other than that, though, I don't really care either way about this fated lovers/destiny thing. I know that I like Amata and he's a really nice guy, but Kagura sure turns me on...

Mikono has never been indecisive. She has chosen Amata from the start. She defended Kagura out of pity, not love. If you think that Mikono is unfaithful because she's turned on by Kagura, then Amata is equally guilty for his "flying boners" for Zessica.
Her only fault is not having answered Amata's confession yet. This can be ascribed to the nature of the romance drama that requires the main couple to get together only on the last episode.

[KleenexGhost]

Originally Posted by Vena

I think the problems in much of the central dynamic arise from the fact that Mikono is vague. Very, very, very vague. I cannot think of a reason, no matter how hard I try, as to why she couldn't tell Amata how she felt before going off on her trip with Fudo. The writers even have the gall to then not only tell us how she feels but have her report on how she feels bad about Zessica and Amata suffering. What the hell is this shit? The entire reason for Amata suffering is because he cannot get a straight answer from her regarding Kagura and what she thinks of Amata, and yet, moments after not telling Amata anything, she says that nonsense. And this isn't limited to one instance. Kagura is an elephant in the room that is never brought up unless the plot demands drama, otherwise Amata and Mikono will just flip back and forth between *Kagura, oh no!* and *Kagura, who's that?* at the drop of a hat.

Whatever happened to her dad? Oh, that's right. He was just PLOT to tell us why Mikono can't speak her mind so that, one episode later, when she cannot speak her mind we're supposed to sympathize.

Mikono is, simply, the plot pivot for the entire show around whom everything occurs because it must and because the writers deem it so. Who's the True Eve? Mikono. Who's going to save Altair? Mikono. Who does everyone focus on? Mikono. Who do the two main males only think about? Mikono. Who is Sylvia? Mikono. Who has the power to bring together the broken Amata? Mikono. Who helped awaken the Golden Aquarion by her mere grandiose presence? Mikono. Who is the key to the INFINITE POWER OF ZERO (where did this bullshit come out of all of a sudden anyway?)? Mikono.

You know what's even worse? Amata can be a good character and has shown that he is, when not afflicted with the disease of this show known as Mikono. (Kagura is just a throw away cardboard cut out.) He's a good guy, gets shit done as an MC, doesn't whine about having to fight or having to kill, helps his comrades, and does all the things that an MC would do. But the moment Mikono appears, he just outright becomes a different character. He becomes aggressive, angry, absorbed, and fanatically obsessive (if the rape dream wasn't a freakishly creepy give away). It's like... what the fuck? Are there two different people named Amata Sora, or am I losing my mind?

I've finally figured out Zessica's role in this story too:
~ Make Amata and Mikono realize they love one another. (Because they have no hope of accomplishing it otherwise, it seems.)
Last episode, when she was trying to find some happiness even if its in the future, Mykage blocked her because FATE IS BAD. This episode, when she think Amata is worrying about her, it turns out its Mykage. The precious thing that Amata found? (As Mykage said while pretending to be Amata, comforting Zessica.) His motivation to fight for Mikono because of who she is now, not who she was in the past! (Straight from Zessica and out of Amata's mouth.) And she even was awake by then to hear the real Amata say that outright. How sweet of him.

Somehow, though, the people writing this seem to have never realized that Amata/Kagura/Mikono are all swimmingly heading down the river of fate and the destined couple is going to end up together regardless of which part of Amata wins, and that the only person being the actual outsider (Zessica) to all the drama and actually trying to break the chains of reincarnations cannot accomplish anything for herself and only serves as a plot device to bridge the gap between the fated couple fighting fate by going along with fate. I just don't see how this is meant to be an aesop against reincarnations when, if you strip off all the fluff and cheesy lines, Apollo is going to end up with Sylvia, Apollonius with Celianne. (It is no less an awful display of characterization when the main characters are fighting over an undisclosed answer from Mikono about her feelings. They both come off as complete lunatics fighting over some prize in what effectively amounts to a dick measuring contest over who's reason is better and who's stronger. Its like two Silver-back Guerrilla's slamming into each other trying to figure out who's the better male while the female just sit off to the side and eats some bananas.)

This is why I said it would have been better to make Amata and Kagura into brothers, get rid of this whole *copy* nonsense in the story and give an actual meaning to *fighting off fate* and the *vice of reincarnations* by making Kagura outright the reincarnation of Apollo and Apollonius, and Amata into some normal dude who finds a girl and falls in love with her.

On a last note:
Why even introduce Zessica into this, I don't even bother trying to decipher anymore. Her plot device role could have been fulfilled by Andy, in fact it is being fulfilled by Andy. Just get rid of Zessica and have Andy, in mourning over MIX-Y, state with gusto that all that matters is who she/he is and that I love her/him irregardless of anything else! And there, point delivered, Amata gets his motivation, and we don't have this utterly bizarre Zessica character who's far easier to root for than your main female and yet utterly screwed over at every turn of the page. Just so that you have some third pilot for Aquarion doesn't require all the former nonsense at all, and even if it has to be Zessica, why make her love for Amata leagues and bounds more tangible than Mikono's?

No end can possibly be satisfying for Zessica (as a character, never mind as a person) at this point because she's been built as someone with so much pure love, that her entire life at this point revolves around Amata and making sure he's happy. Any end is either going to leave her character dead, unfulfilled and without her love, or broken (if she's not already there).

At this point, all I have left in me is a good, old "Fuck it." I'm going to rewatch Mashifony next Sunday before, during, and after the live stream of EVOL such that I can have a good laugh by comparison.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with this 100%.

I've felt that the writers are trying too hard to swerve the audience and throw things we're not expecting at us, but they're doing a poor job of doing so.

The only thing that really gets me is the wasted potential of all the main characters. Every once in a while we'll see a flash of what they could be if they were developed properly but they're just not developed and written well.

For example, I like Mikono, but she is just too passive. It's frustrating to see that from the main heroine of a series. I liked how she overcame her personal feelings of being useless and realized her abilities, but other than that not much development. And don't even get me started on Zessica, who I like as well, whose sole purpose in this series has become to make you feel bad because of all the crap that's happened to her.

On a side note: Way to go out like a boss Shrade. Without a doubt, you are my favorite character of this series.

[Zuul]

Do you remember the legit spoiler saying that there wil be a twist on who is Sylvia.

At this point, there is no way they could pull a 'Mikono is not Sylvia !! lulz'. So should I bet on another split (but not Mykage this time, something similar to Syrius/Sylvia). Maybe Alicia which would explain why Amata seems to see his mom in Mikono, like Mikono was able to see Amata in Kagura.

It makes the whole thing even worse... It could totally happen.

And unless I've seen a bad translation, there is a song in the OST called 'fragment of Eve'.

[Korps!]

Originally Posted by Vena

Mikono is, simply, the plot pivot for the entire show around whom everything occurs because it must and because the writers deem it so. Who's the True Eve? Mikono. Who's going to save Altair? Mikono. Who does everyone focus on? Mikono. Who do the two main males only think about? Mikono. Who is Sylvia? Mikono. Who has the power to bring together the broken Amata? Mikono. Who helped awaken the Golden Aquarion by her mere grandiose presence? Mikono. Who is the key to the INFINITE POWER OF ZERO (where did this bullshit come out of all of a sudden anyway?)? Mikono.

They only thing left to do is for Altair to sell Mikono T-shirts, Alicia is long overdue.

You know what's even worse? Amata can be a good character and has shown that he is, when not afflicted with the disease of this show known as Mikono. (Kagura is just a throw away cardboard cut out.) He's a good guy, gets shit done as an MC, doesn't whine about having to fight or having to kill, helps his comrades, and does all the things that an MC would do. But the moment Mikono appears, he just outright becomes a different character. He becomes aggressive, angry, absorbed, and fanatically obsessive (if the rape dream wasn't a freakishly creepy give away). It's like... what the fuck? Are there two different people named Amata Sora, or am I losing my mind?

Amata must be kept away from both Mikono and any Alicia related goods for him to stay as a decent character. With the former his brain becomes trap in a endless loop (that's gotta be some subliminal message for the viewer) while in the latter he reverts to a whining emo (he made quite a pathetic scene with his comatose fishtanked mother).

Somehow, though, the people writing this seem to have never realized that Amata/Kagura/Mikono are all swimmingly heading down the river of fate and the destined couple is going to end up together regardless of which part of Amata wins, and that the only person being the actual outsider (Zessica) to all the drama and actually trying to break the chains of reincarnations cannot accomplish anything for herself and only serves as a plot device to bridge the gap between the fated couple fighting fate by going along with fate. I just don't see how this is meant to be an aesop against reincarnations when, if you strip off all the fluff and cheesy lines, Apollo is going to end up with Sylvia, Apollonius with Celianne. (It is no less an awful display of characterization when the main characters are fighting over an undisclosed answer from Mikono about her feelings. They both come off as complete lunatics fighting over some prize in what effectively amounts to a dick measuring contest over who's reason is better and who's stronger. Its like two Silver-back Guerrilla's slamming into each other trying to figure out who's the better male while the female just sit off to the side and eats some bananas.)

This is spot on. "They both come off as complete lunatics fighting over some prize in what effectively amounts to a dick measuring contest over who's reason is better and who's stronger." Testosterone AND stupidity.

This is why I said it would have been better to make Amata and Kagura into brothers, get rid of this whole *copy* nonsense in the story and give an actual meaning to *fighting off fate* and the *vice of reincarnations* by making Kagura outright the reincarnation of Apollo and Apollonius, and Amata into some normal dude who finds a girl and falls in love with her.

That certainly would have made a lot more sense than a guy fighting himself for a girl already labelled as his property 24000 years ago.

Why even introduce Zessica into this, I don't even bother trying to decipher anymore. Her plot device role could have been fulfilled by Andy, in fact it is being fulfilled by Andy. Just get rid of Zessica and have Andy, in mourning over MIX-Y, state with gusto that all that matters is who she/he is and that I love her/him irregardless of anything else! And there, point delivered, Amata gets his motivation, and we don't have this utterly bizarre Zessica character who's far easier to root for than your main female and yet utterly screwed over at every turn of the page. Just so that you have some third pilot for Aquarion doesn't require all the former nonsense at all, and even if it has to be Zessica, why make her love for Amata leagues and bounds more tangible than Mikono's?

It's probably easier to root for Zessica since she showed real concern about Amata's happiness, that she'd rather tried to make him happy than seizing happiness for herself, making her a wreck in the meantime.

Andy's questionning his love for a genderbend MIX IS the strongest take on romance EVOL could ever hope to achieve, can he continues to love a person that has been changed both physically and mentally? Considering that the first one can't be reversed? We're very far from Amata's "I love Mikono-SAN for herself".

No end can possibly be satisfying for Zessica (as a character, never mind as a person) at this point because she's been built as someone with so much pure love, that her entire life at this point revolves around Amata and making sure he's happy. Any end is either going to leave her character dead, unfulfilled and without her love, or broken (if she's not already there).

Zessica has been my fav for a long time before turning into "this" (Yunoha FTW), right now I'd rather have her die and be done with this all crap.

At this point, all I have left in me is a good, old "Fuck it." I'm going to rewatch Mashifony next Sunday before, during, and after the live stream of EVOL such that I can have a good laugh by comparison.

"Fuck it." EVOL's biggest flaw, is that there's so little going on aside from the characters wondering "where's my ship going?" Literally. Thus as viewers we're treated to poor drama and lame romances, we have the fate of two worlds hanging in the balance yet the only thing that seems to matter are petty lovers quarrels.

Originally Posted by mayumi

I am sure if apollo and silvia saw what they become in evol they would root for not reincarnating even if they seperated. They good times together, but time to move on.

THIS.

I really do wonder why EVOL had to be made. I personally liked the previous ending. It was not sad cause u could atleast imagine silvia and apollo did meet up. Not a indecisive, meek, saintly bitch version of silvia meeting obssessed with her amata.

Aquarion didn't need a sequel, it ended on a strong emotional note, leaving enough hope to stand between between bittersweet and good ending type.
I can only mourn when I contemplate the likeliness of Mikono being a reincarnation of Silvia, even worse of Celianne. Time is cruel.

[Azuma Denton]

I dunno what is what anymore...

Your comrades out there fighting with a giant mech that just killed your comrade...
And there you fight with yourself over one indecisive girl...

And when you find out the comrade that just sacrifice her life for you still alive, you just say "Zessica, you're alive"


Oh Kawamori, what have Zessica done that she deserve to be treated like that??
Simply painful, just painful...
It is better Zessica just die in last episode, at least she'll be remembered as the girl that saves Amata life so he can go back shouting, "Mikono Mikono Mikono..."


And it seems even Mix being forgotten by the main heroine...

[Zuul]

Originally Posted by Korps!

Andy's questionning his love for a genderbend MIX IS the strongest take on romance EVOL could ever hope to achieve, can he continues to love a person that has been changed both physically and mentally? Considering that the first one can't be reversed? We're very far from Amata's "I love Mikono-SAN for herself"
.

I agree with this. I wasn't even into it at the start. But it has grown on me.

Andy can get angry at Mix unlike Amata. He doesn't let stupid things get in the way (unlike Amata with the school rules, Chouchou, moping over irrelevant stuff). And when he finally starts moping you actually feel guenuinely sorry for him and his plight makes sense unlike the 'oh noes, poor me, I've to fight destiny even if I'm the one destined to be with Mikono' .

"I love Mikono-SAN for herself"

Pretty ridiculous since their relationship has been the same from day one with his falling for her without knowing her. It would have sounded less stupid, if the authors spent half the time they used making Zessica miserable, actually giving those 2 meaningful touching interactions. Not just Mikono being passive agressive over misconceptions and Amata grovelling in front of her in an attempt to make up for it.

And yes, I find the fact they never dropped the honorifics extremelly irritating.

[kuromitsu]

Well, since everyone is posting long and complex evaluations, even though we have still 4 episodes to go...

(I just wonder how many people would see things otherwise if certain developments happened differently. Anyway.)

I've talked a lot about the writing problems with this show, hell, I was one of the first to bring them up. However, the thing is... I still enjoy Evol a lot. And not because of trainwreck syndrome. Hell, I really enjoyed this episode, because it had a lot of what I like about this show, and I think it was glorious. Maybe it's because I'm shallow and easy to please, but I still find stuff to like in every episode, even if it's "only" Mykage, Fudou, Shrade, Izumo, or, yes- Amata, whom I still like a lot, am not sorry to say, along with Mikono and everyone else I liked in the beginning. (Go, Amata! Fight, Amata! xD) I like the characters and care about them, despite all the blunders the writing made. I like Amata & Mikono, both separately and together (I still think they're insanely cute, sorry), and I think that despite the overall writing problems regarding the entire AMZK mess, they make a good pair, a cute pair, and I'd be happy if they ended up together. This puts me in a minority, but I'm used to that.

I don't know if I'll be ultimately happy or disappointed when Evol ends, but with all the criticism I have against this show and all the whining I've posted here, I still look forward to every episode and that alone makes it more or less worth it as far as I'm concerned. To put it bluntly, this is Aquarion. I found the so-called plot in Genesis a half-baked mess, and the show only worked when I put my brain aside and just took everything in, reveling in the hijinks and the visuals. Evol works in kind of the same way, except here it's not just the over-the-top, earnest silliness that keeps pulling me in, but the ~epic~ and ~grandiose~ tone, and most importantly the characters. I like them and care about them, and while I'm not pleased at all with some things the writers have done to them (especially Zessica - I guess I'm lucky that she's not my favorite character, but she's still a huge sore spot), and certain things are annoying, it's not exactly their fault so I can't hate them for it.

So yeah - I have no idea what they wanted to accomplish with this show, but frankly, I don't particularly care. Does the plot make sense despite all the blunders? Dunno yet, but like with Genesis, after a certain point I stopped giving a damn. Evol is certainly not a "good" show, and my opinion may still turn very sour on it, hell, I complain about it enough as it is. But I'll embrace the show as long as it keeps being entertaining.

What puts a damper on everything is seeing the bashing and hating getting out of hand on this forum. I suppose this is inevitable when a show deals with love triangles, but it's still sad. Oh well, haters gonna hate.

[GoldenLand]

With the idea of the new legend/fighting fate thing, I think it works if the idea is that EVOL will be the story which allows a happy ending. If the bad fate is something caused because of actions 24,000 years ago and repeated again with a bad fate 12,000 years on, then this should be the story to break the cycle. There were a few things mentioned which suggested that with a bit of luck we'll be finding out more about 24,000 years ago (that reference to snakes and trees!) than we did in Genesis. We still don't really know much about that. So, I suppose the characters caught up in repeating tragedy will have the chance to break free of that fate. Any of the main characters could potentially have what it takes to do that. Who will it be?

Originally Posted by Korps!

"Fuck it." EVOL's biggest flaw, is that there's so little going on aside from the characters wondering "where's my ship going?" Literally. Thus as viewers we're treated to poor drama and lame romances, we have the fate of two worlds hanging in the balance yet the only thing that seems to matter are petty lovers quarrels.

I could not agree more with this. It's all very well to have a series called Aquarion LOVE in scrambled letters, but that is no excuse for having the world (both Vega and Altair) about to end but the series still focusing on romantic quarrels.

This is why I found Shrade so refreshing in this ep. Finally, finally, we had a character whose passionate main aim was a personal goal for himself rather than a romantic goal. Shrade wants to find the world's best song rather than getting the (wo)man of his dreams! And the plot allows him to be competent and effective while he does so.

Who else has a goal for something non-romantic? Well...Mikono had one for becoming pro-active and then recently to save her friends, but then the plot decreed that she had to be fought over by Amata and Kagura as a prize instead. Izumo has a goal, and he's been very effective during the times when he was allowed to go into combat, although the plot interrupted him from telling Amata about his dad. Fudo has a goal, whatever it is, and everything seems to be going as planned. Mykage has his evil plot, the reasons for which aren't yet clear, but he definitely doesn't spend all his time thinking wistfully of a sweetheart: that would cut into his trolling time. Crea seems to be motivated by doing what's best for her charges and the world.

But the MIX/Andy and Jin/Yunoha relationships have been very well done. In that, at least, the writers have had success. By contrast, the "love triangles" of the series have no (yet, anyway) turned into proper love triangles, and it feels as if Mikono/Amata got frozen artificially in place after a few episodes, because the writers needed it to stay the same until the ending story arc. And unfortunately, although Mikono still got some character development, Amata really got the short end of the stick and doesn't seem to have grown much as person. I think he is one of the characters who has been paying for the good mid-story Jin/Yunoha and MIX/Andy storylines the most.

Originally Posted by Korps!

Andy's questionning his love for a genderbend MIX IS the strongest take on romance EVOL could ever hope to achieve, can he continues to love a person that has been changed both physically and mentally? Considering that the first one can't be reversed? We're very far from Amata's "I love Mikono-SAN for herself".

Andy seemed like such a gag character at first, but he and MIX have actually got the closest thing to a serious romantic storyline in EVOL. It is really, really good that he's actually considering the matter. I'd like to see him realise that he still loves MIX(Y) in the end, but the fact he was shown thinking about it rather than going "I'll get her back and she'll somehow be back to normal" or going straight to "I still love him just the same!" made things have more depth.

We don't know for certain yet that it can't be reversed. Maybe it can, maybe it can't...

Originally Posted by Korps!

This is spot on. "They both come off as complete lunatics fighting over some prize in what effectively amounts to a dick measuring contest over who's reason is better and who's stronger." Testosterone AND stupidity.

That scene was a little annoying in that way, although at least it had plenty of action. I've had to remind myself a few times that Amata at least was trying in the latter part of the fight to protect Mikono from, ahem, a guy who claims to want to "kill her all night long", when Amata doesn't know about the reverse speak. I can see why Amata would be fighting as fiercely as he could. And he would only have said those things about how he loves Mikono for who she is now in reaction to Kagura's "fate" reasoning. It wouldn't have come up otherwise.

Originally Posted by Azuma Denton

Oh Kawamori, what have Zessica done that she deserve to be treated like that??
Simply painful, just painful...
It is better Zessica just die in last episode, at least she'll be remembered as the girl that saves Amata life so he can go back shouting, "Mikono Mikono Mikono..."

I know a lot of people think it would have been better for Zessica to die last ep, but I think it would have been awful. Noooo. Because the thing that went wrong with Zessica is that her whole character became defined by her unrequited love for Amata. If she had actually died for him as the consequence of that love, it would have added insult to injury, IMO. As long as she's alive and there are a few episodes left, there's a chance she may be able to become her own character again, or to have some cool moments which aren't all about Amata. At least at the end of the series they could show us a "one month later" with her living the good life, moving on and being happy.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

I don't know if I'll be ultimately happy or disappointed when Evol ends, but with all the criticism I have against this show and all the whining I've posted here, I still look forward to every episode and that alone makes it more or less worth it as far as I'm concerned. To put it bluntly, this is Aquarion. I found the so-called plot in Genesis a half-baked mess, and the show only worked when I put my brain aside and just took everything in, reveling in the hijinks and the visuals. Evol works in kind of the same way, except here it's not just the over-the-top, earnest silliness that keeps pulling me in, but the ~epic~ and ~grandiose~ tone, and most importantly the characters. I like them and care about them, and while I'm not pleased at all with some things the writers have done to them (especially Zessica - I guess I'm lucky that she's not my favorite character, but she's still a huge sore spot), and certain things are annoying, it's not exactly their fault so I can't hate them for it. .

I think something similar. I look forward to EVOL the most out of all the shows I'm watching at the moment. It's flawed, and there's plenty to criticise about it, but I still like it a lot. Aquarion is just that sort of series, and EVOL's characters are especially endearing. I like them better than all of the Genesis characters except for Reika.

[miketyson]

kuromitsu: I see what you mean but even at the entertainment level this show is losing its grip on me. In re your earlier comments, I chuckled a bit when Kagura said he had to kill Amata, but their fight just wasn't entertaining enough on that front; it should've been the two of them rolling around and wrasslin' each other, imho, but I guess that's either too much for TV or too hard to animate.

Generally: my tl;dr on ep 22: if you didn't crack up at "arigatou, Zessica" you can't be helped. Forget about everything else, that was comedy gold...if only they could make all of her suffering that funny, . (I mean really, after reading this thread I don't see why people are getting mad at the "you were ok, Zessica?!?!" line, it seemed fine, but "arigatou, Zessica" feels like the stuff memes are made of...).

I also thought Mykage's trolling of Zessica was spot on this week, too: it was such a shallow scene and really showed just how little there is to go on on that front...

Vena, Triple R: in re thematics this is the best I can figure out. I've tried to avoid mentioning "fighting fate" as a theme because I don't think that's really anywhere near what the show's theme (if any) is about. My tl;dr on where I think things are going:

~2005 Kawamori: "I've loved you for 12000 years, and in 8000 years will love you more? That's beautiful!"
~2012 Kawamori: "I've loved you for 12000 years, and in 8000 years will love you more? That's really sick! My thinking on this topic has EVOLved...and the world must know!"

...which isn't much about "fighting fate" in any meaningful sense. That's my story, I'm sticking to it, and we'll see if there even *is* a theme in this mess in another month. Anyways:

Based on that tl;dr, my tl;dr read on the characters is:

Amata-Kagura-Mikono: from episode 14-15 onwards all three are meant to be sucky, but having three sucky mains is too dangerous, so Amata's and Mikono's suckiness was softened up at least for awhile...

Zessica: meant as an ill-conceived mix of "contrast with those three" (contrasts: Mikono's indecisiveness, Kagura's "inconsiderateness", Amata's shallowish love) and "pitiful suffering-mop meant to make visible the deleterious effects of those three's lameness"...except that mix doesn't work -- in particular, being a pitiful laughing stock breaks her use as a contrast, and softening the lameness on Amata and Mikono makes her suffering seem like it has no reason.

So, eh, 4 more episodes. It's surprising to me how much it'd be improved if any of the main 4 were cut out. Thinking it over in my head, a version with any of: no Mikono, no Amata, no Kagura, or no Zessica seems like it'd have likely been better.

Zuul: I wouldn't make that much of the honorifics. As far as I can tell in 12000 years you only use honorifics when you're shy or nervous around someone (Yunoha all the time, Amata and Mikono around each other, Sazanka for Schrade and Cayenne) or when there's a huge status gap (like students to Fudo). So in the future there's more of a westernized approach to names and honorifics and that's all there is to it.