Mahou Senki Lyrical Nanoha Force Manga Discussion

[Justin_Brett]

So impressive you ignored everything else in that chapter.

[bhl88]

She used Quinn's katana, didn't she?

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by bhl88

She used Quinn's katana, didn't she?

Yup, paired with one of her own reacted ones, apparently a reacted Divider can be used by more than one EC Driver (or at least the replicas can).

[bhl88]

Her arm fell out, didn't it?

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by bhl88

Her arm fell out, didn't it?

What i find curious about the fight is that when Signum chopped Cypha's arm during Ch. 6 it was trated as a minor injury but when Cypha got chopped again in Ch. 24 it suddenly becomes an important injury ...somehow xDU

[bhl88]

lol she didn't want to stitch it a second time....

[Sansker]

Then what? We could say Cypha did try to get information on the AEC weapons but that, as well as the Grendel taking some of them, always makes me question the logic of such actions a little. I mean, they get the super weapons the Eclipse and the Dividers are and yet instead of making sure those remain on top by, I don’t know, securing the always so important Silver Cross they now decide to study the AEC weapons which are proven again and again to work horrible, at best, when the mage is not a cyborg or a person with Mana conversion affinity. So far only Fate, Signum and Subaru have been able to use their AEC things without breaking them.

[Akiyoshi]

The best excuse i can come up with at the moment is that the AEC-units are still a mistery to most non-TSAB people, being prototypes their details are probably rserved only to a handfull of people and all other criminal groups know is "these are wepons specially made to hunt EC Driver" which could put some EC gangs or dealers quite nervous so it's natural they want to put their hands on some of that new technology.

So far the only Ec Drivers who faced and witnessed the unfinished state of the product are the Huckebein and Grendel families ...the Hucks don't care that much about those so far and the Grendels are captured so they can't share the information.

By the way, Signum managed to half-trash her AEC-unit (well, Cypha "gave her a hand" with that ...literally xD).

[Sansker]

Again, the Hucks are a little too powerful for their own good on this story. They seem invencibles and then they are beaten... strange. Cypha is the worst, she takes Quinn's attacks like nothing but Signum's somehow hut her when we already see Quinn being able to cut AEC weapons like butter.

[Akiyoshi]

Well, i finally got to see clean images of Chapter 28 where Curren, Veyron and Sonica start their assault on Hardis.

Curren calls forth a wall of vines to delay interference. Veyron attacked the guy fiercely but Hardis revealed to have Cypha's level of super tough flesh as Veyron's divider cracks on hit, then Mr. Vandin tried a cunter attack but was brutalized by a combo of Curren retraining him, Veyron shotting the man in the face, then getting page-blasted by Curren again ...then getting headgrabbed by Veyron's Claw Grab and subsequently blown up ...then his body got wrapped in vines ...and after that the vines started to die and Hardis get up barely scratched while smugging a bit.

Curren seems to enjoy the challenge (licking her lips while smiling) but Vandin suddenly surrender as almost freaking everyone comes to the place (The P Team, The Forwards, Wendy and Fate to be specific), they arrest them with magical binds which they break effortlessly (seriously, why they even bother with binds anymore xDU) ...Fate, Erio adn Suabru prepares to fight (yeah, those three again xDU) while the others bring cover up (on a curious note Wendy is armed with her own "Oxtongue" AEC-unit).

So let's see how things turns out for the Hucks now. Fate is in the fight so there's some hope xD

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Sansker

Again, the Hucks are a little too powerful for their own good on this story. They seem invencibles and then they are beaten... strange. Cypha is the worst, she takes Quinn's attacks like nothing but Signum's somehow hut her when we already see Quinn being able to cut AEC weapons like butter.

Quien was able to destory the AEC equipment of the Erio and Caro, right? Compared to Signum, they have the less battle experience. Equipment is important, but skill is a factor also.

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

Well, i finally got to see clean images of Chapter 28 where Curren, Veyron and Sonica start their assault on Hardis.

Curren calls forth a wall of vines to delay interference. Veyron attacked the guy fiercely but Hardis revealed to have Cypha's level of super tough flesh as Veyron's divider cracks on hit, then Mr. Vandin tried a cunter attack but was brutalized by a combo of Curren retraining him, Veyron shotting the man in the face, then getting page-blasted by Curren again ...then getting headgrabbed by Veyron's Claw Grab and subsequently blown up ...then his body got wrapped in vines ...and after that the vines started to die and Hardis get up barely scratched while smugging a bit.

Curren seems to enjoy the challenge (licking her lips while smiling) but Vandin suddenly surrender as almost freaking everyone comes to the place (The P Team, The Forwards, Wendy and Fate to be specific), they arrest them with magical binds which they break effortlessly (seriously, why they even bother with binds anymore xDU) ...Fate, Erio adn Suabru prepares to fight (yeah, those three again xDU) while the others bring cover up (on a curious note Wendy is armed with her own "Oxtongue" AEC-unit).

So let's see how things turns out for the Hucks now. Fate is in the fight so there's some hope xD

Sonica hasn't done anything? That's some foreshadowing for later. I'm still wondering why they made such a bold move. It seems desperate on their part.

[Justin_Brett]

You guys need to stop whining about the Hucks being too powerful. I don't like them either, but a lot of them have gotten beaten up pretty easily. They just haven't been defeated entirely because the plot needs them not to be, which is another problem, but not the one you're talking about.

Quien was able to destory the AEC equipment of the Erio and Caro, right? Compared to Signum, they have the less battle experience. Equipment is important, but skill is a factor also.

I don't think skill matters when you're made to job to a joke villain. In that same fight Isis took out another of them pretty easily, and I doubt she's out-right better than Erio.

[Sansker]

Maybe you are right but it just seems that the villains change their power level and skill in other to fit what the plot needs them be. So I do complain why the Hucks are so freaking awesome and then get beaten without much effort. Again, the less I say about Grendel the better. In any case we take what we get, right?

Back to what Akiyoshi mention I already saw such images and the only thing I can say is: really? I mean that was just… silly. I don’t even going to mention with the ten levels of wrong about Hardis putting Dividers out of his ass, he being send alone and away on who knows where, he being an Eclipse Driver and all his superpowers but that just make me wonder a lot of things. I mean, is not bad and is sure a surprise but feels wrong. This should be discover by the heroes, not the villains, that way Hardis keeps something he can pull off when he needs to run. Now if he does pull it out will not be a surprise because we, as reader, already know it in a very stupid and not funny way.

Aside from that I can’t wait to see them fight the Hückebein again, it will be so much fun (Sarcasm on)

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

You guys need to stop whining about the Hucks being too powerful. I don't like them either, but a lot of them have gotten beaten up pretty easily. They just haven't been defeated entirely because the plot needs them not to be, which is another problem, but not the one you're talking about.

A LOT of them beaten up pretty easily = One of them retreated from a fight she had no real interest in after loosing an arm she can easily recover and wrecking a key piece of her opponent's equipement.

A lot of them, yeah...

Ok, there's also Arnage but we haven't seen the conclusion of her battle with Isis because Deville came to the rescue (and if i remeber correctly he One-Hit KO'ed Isis while unreacted). Also give some credit to Isis there, her device and magic style is pretty damn impressive against EC Drivers and she just happened to have a perfect counter for guided missiles (i wonder how the fight could have turned had Arnage decided to get serious and changed to plasma cannon mode).

Aside of that no one else from their group have suffered anything remotely close to a "defeat" until the confrontation with Vanding but again ...he seems to be an even MORE invincible villain than them xD The heroes should be thankful the guy likes to play around instead of massacring freaking everyone xD

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

I don't think skill matters when you're made to job to a joke villain. In that same fight Isis took out another of them pretty easily, and I doubt she's out-right better than Erio.

The Grendels are clowns, but they're pretty strong clowns as well, Carter can blow up weapons on contact and have what seems to be top class super strenght ...pretty basic abilities but pretty broken if well used (specially against close combat focused adversaries).

And ironically, Erio is about the only person among the Forwards who will be able to keep up a fight with Quinn if he had an equipement that allow him to use his prodigious speed to the fullest. Cypha defeated Quinn primarily by fact of being tougher than her sword as the girl can make attacks with undefensible quickness.

[Koveras Alvane]

Originally Posted by Akiyoshi

(on a curious note Wendy is armed with her own "Oxtongue" AEC-unit).

I am pretty sure she is Teana's aide now. Tea keeps what she kills.

[Kaijo]

A lot of combat, especially in Nanoha, is rock, paper, scissors. Hayate is powerful from a distance, but crap in close and she needs support. When you honestly understand Nanoha combat, and all the factors therein, everything makes sense.

Edit: As long as you keep reducing it to power levels, you won't get. Skills, tactics, power, support, and even luck, play a role. This makes combat more of an ambigous factor, and thus not a straight-up bash fest.

[Sansker]

Can be that but to be fair Nanoha has examples of people using tactics to win, people being just lucky and people using superior power. Really is a matter of how the fight progress. We have matches that are totally one sided, other with real tension and strategy and others that I just don’t get what was the point. The problem I always find in Nanoha is that for all the things they say about strategy, the approach to each situation is always the same: a direct face to face confrontation.

[Akiyoshi]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Edit: As long as you keep reducing it to power levels, you won't get. Skills, tactics, power, support, and even luck, play a role. This makes combat more of an ambigous factor, and thus not a straight-up bash fest.

I miss A's when battles used to be straight-up bash fests ToT

Originally Posted by Sansker

Can be that but to be fair Nanoha has examples of people using tactics to win, people being just lucky and people using superior power. Really is a matter of how the fight progress. We have matches that are totally one sided, other with real tension and strategy and others that I just don’t get what was the point. The problem I always find in Nanoha is that for all the things they say about strategy, the approach to each situation is always the same: a direct face to face confrontation.

I havo no problems against Nanoha most of the time, the show has made a good work showing how creative and tactical she is and how she can draw the best of what she have at hand (except for her fight with Tohma her usual fights are usually very cool and dynamic). It's just that power in this series plays a bigger role at the mos timprotant moments (Nanoha's wisdom and tactics barely helped her against Sankt Kaiser Vivio and was in the need to rely on a massive power up in order to win ...Signum lost to Cypha by the simple fact the latter is mroe powerfull than her ...good tactics or not).

Tactic can give you an edge in the fight but there's a limit where if the difference in power is too great skill simply can't make up for said difference. FORCE is so far the clearest example (the former was A's ...StrikerS was more about Teamwork and strategy rather than actual power), the heroes are so overpowered by the villains they have to put their faith on unreliable upgrades to make up for that.

[Sansker]

I don't mind Nanoha fighting style, just saying they always use direct personal confrontation with any enemy they ever face. When, tactics being say, Vice and his sniper rifle should be more effective. Is odd to me when a series makes me realize a rifle is better and more useful than magic powers, but that can be say about a lot of animes so I am just saying is something I notice without thinking is bad or good, sometimes the dynamics work others no so much. StrikerS is odd actually because as much as teamwork was set as important in the en all characters fight on they own. Is more about the classic: believe in yourself, we are all special, everyone has something and you will pull it out somehow. But again, that is for a StrikerS thread.

Now that you mention let’s consider for a moment the fights in Force. Following the same school as past seasons Force seems to make characters, at least villains, base on power ups. On the Eclipse Drivers case the Reaction. Making any attempt to measure power rather pointless since is not always clear how they are prior to the power up and after it (Same by Nanoha and Fate’s forms by the way). That being say Force does show characters using their brain in fights, so far Isis is the best example of pulling decent fights where her powers are use with some kind of wisdom while others just hit each other until something breaks.

When Nanoha and Thoma fight each other… what was Nanoha’s plan? They fight, and fight, and keep fighting and shooting and breaking shields and yet at no point did I ever knew what Nanoha was trying to accomplish. In fact the only one who did try something was Fate, like 2 chapters later, attacking the Silver Cross. Just wondering what if Fate miss and actually hit Thoma, I am sure they will be still there, trying to hold Thoma while the Hückebein leave.

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by Koveras Alvane

I am pretty sure she is Teana's aide now. Tea keeps what she kills.

That's not funny. On another point, where is Wendy's board/ cannon? She's not a mage, and one of the few, who can use their previous equipment.