Muv-Luv Franchise - Military Tactics, History, & Geo-Politics

[Marcus H.]

I have to wonder, though. The BETAs have been in the Muv-Luv universe for thirty years — about four times as long as World War II — and they should have reconsidered their priorities halfway into the invasion.

[Sheba]

Allies were allied because of circumstances (nazis on their homeland for Soviets, bombing the shit out of England, and Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor), otherwise they all had their agendas, not always compatible with each other. Roosevelt and Churchill were not on the same wavelenght about the France of Vichy, and Charles de Gaulle. Stalin wanted to expand his sphere of influence in Eastern Europe once he was done with Hitler, and Churchill tried to prevent that.

Bottomline, to have everyone else in Muv-Luv following their own agenda and doing their own shit makes sense in a way. What the Muv-Luv-verse eventually would have needed is a leader figure to knock that bullshit down and tell everyone to play nice with a powerfist powered bitchslap.

[encia]

Originally Posted by DoomRavager

I don't see what silicon has to do with anything, since BETA are carbon based. The value of a nuclear bomb when fighting BETA would not be the long-term effects of ionizing radiation, but the heat and mechanical shockwave produced by the explosion, since the ionizing radiation does jack all to them.
.

Somebody mentioned silicon... Anyway, carbon is just as bad.
Heat is just photons at IR EM frequency band. IR has less ionizing potential than gamma/x-ray EM frequency band.

[DoomRavager]

Yes, you want to burn them up and tear them apart, not give them cancer/radiation sickness, because you can't give them cancer/radiation sickness.

[Dragonkid11]

Originally Posted by DoomRavager

Yes, you want to burn them up and tear them apart, not give them cancer/radiation sickness, because you can't give them cancer/radiation sickness.

They can just devour(or,in their term,harvest)the sick one and build/birth/??? a new one right away...

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by encia

Somebody mentioned silicon... Anyway, carbon is just as bad.
Heat is just photons at IR EM frequency band. IR has less ionizing potential than gamma/x-ray EM frequency band.

It's not ionization so much as being flash atomized or ripped apart by shockwave.

No human nuclear radiation weapon around is capable of that

They don't function like normal lifeforms so if you intend to screw with their physiological workings....no. Only way is to flat out destroy them.

[Wild Goose]

Y'know what bugs me? In this verse, we can orbit deploy TSFs and have a viable Star Wars system up and running...

Why hasn't anyone thought of spamming orbital kinetic strikes on BETA hives?

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Y'know what bugs me? In this verse, we can orbit deploy TSFs and have a viable Star Wars system up and running...

Why hasn't anyone thought of spamming orbital kinetic strikes on BETA hives?

Cause laser can intercept.

[DoomRavager]

Ah, but see, they already the Re-Entry shells that can get Orbit Divers into the Hives, after initial operations to remove around 70% of the Lasers already on the surface at the time. And it works fairly well, 91% of the time the Divers do get on the ground safely, even if the survival rate after the fact is somewhat poor. So theoretically you might argue they do have the framework for a somewhat reliable kinetic strike system in place.

[Candyshark]

But still such decisin could not be made just by one nation? There should have been some kind of summit for that? What was the prognose for that move? 20-30% of landmass unusable. Eurasia is plastered with those hives.

And how much time would it have bought them anyway? BETA is still on the moon.

I really facepalm hard at all that "keep it to ourselves" mentalety especially in the presence of such enemy even though hard to deny humanity is dump like that.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by DoomRavager

Ah, but see, they already the Re-Entry shells that can get Orbit Divers into the Hives, after initial operations to remove around 70% of the Lasers already on the surface at the time. And it works fairly well, 91% of the time the Divers do get on the ground safely, even if the survival rate after the fact is somewhat poor. So theoretically you might argue they do have the framework for a somewhat reliable kinetic strike system in place.

Erm, actually the front part of the Diver pod IS a kinetic weapon system. Its meant to reduce the amount of BETA on the ground when the TSF component arrives.

Also, I read somewhere the Diver idea was for deep Hive infiltration through the core of the Stab, but because of the tens of thousands of laser class inside the sides of the hole, out of 100 pods, only 5 made it through, or something.

They changed the design to use on near hive infiltration of the tunnel system instead after that. Survival rates are still less than 20%.

You can check out the english translation of Chicken Divers. It has the current exchange rates of pilots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLml-ANIRjo

[DoomRavager]

Originally Posted by grevierr

Erm, actually the front part of the Diver pod IS a kinetic weapon system. Its meant to reduce the amount of BETA on the ground when the TSF component arrives.

Also, I read somewhere the Diver idea was for deep Hive infiltration through the core of the Stab, but because of the tens of thousands of laser class inside the sides of the hole, out of 100 pods, only 5 made it through, or something.

They changed the design to use on near hive infiltration of the tunnel system instead after that. Survival rates are still less than 20%.

You can check out the english translation of Chicken Divers. It has the current exchange rates of pilots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLml-ANIRjo

That's kind of what I meant. The re-entry shell being already a kinetic strike system, that proves they are already capable of pulling off orbital kinetic strikes despite the lasers. Well, Isumi did mention that they had to thin out the lasers with artillery and ground assault first, generally expecting 70% of lasers on the surface to be removed before the drop. Arguably nothing really stopping them from, well, scaling it up a bit to make bigger holes or use it to deliver some megaton-class munitions instead of a TSF. Might cost fewer lives that way, make it easier to get a foothold on entry points to the Hive and thin the BETA numbers, since setting off very high-yield explosives in an underground complex tends to be quite powerful, with the tunnels focusing the shockwave along.

Already watched Chicken Divers, the downloadable version with the timed subtitle file as opposed to the Youtube captioned one. It's mentioned that nine out of a hundred Divers don't make it to the ground (which is where I got my previous 91% figure from), sounds more or less good enough.

[Wild Goose]

My point is that orbital strikes would outrange BETA, and you can spam dumb unguided shells at BETA. BETA can't intercept artillery so well, so I'd argue that a saturation bombardment with kinetic penetrators is possible.

Mind you, I freely admit that this requires 1) space station with lotsa guns or 2) orbital fire battleship.

[Dragonkid11]

One question,why heavy metal dust,does ordinary smoke cover cannot be used?

I mean,Lux-class only shoot with line of sight.

If needed,the TSF can use the 120mm cannon to shoot smoke grenade,or just attach smoke generator on to TSF

Also,low cost.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by DoomRavager

That's kind of what I meant. The re-entry shell being already a kinetic strike system, that proves they are already capable of pulling off orbital kinetic strikes despite the lasers. Well, Isumi did mention that they had to thin out the lasers with artillery and ground assault first, generally expecting 70% of lasers on the surface to be removed before the drop. Arguably nothing really stopping them from, well, scaling it up a bit to make bigger holes or use it to deliver some megaton-class munitions instead of a TSF. Might cost fewer lives that way, make it easier to get a foothold on entry points to the Hive and thin the BETA numbers, since setting off very high-yield explosives in an underground complex tends to be quite powerful, with the tunnels focusing the shockwave along.

Already watched Chicken Divers, the downloadable version with the timed subtitle file as opposed to the Youtube captioned one. It's mentioned that nine out of a hundred Divers don't make it to the ground (which is where I got my previous 91% figure from), sounds more or less good enough.

I think the 9 out of a hundred is the reentry capsule surviving the atmosphere burn. Its when they reach the range of the laser class that the rates drop to less than 20%.

And again, they need to target the core of the stub, not the surface. They can barely reach 70% of the laser class in the open, what about in a vertical shaft with folds and protection?

I think there was an operation using this idea with S11 bombs. But since the reactor was not directly at the end of the shaft of the Stab, it survived and was rebuild, so effective gains were zero.

And yup, got that file. Its lots better then the original fan disk ver from c75.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

My point is that orbital strikes would outrange BETA, and you can spam dumb unguided shells at BETA. BETA can't intercept artillery so well, so I'd argue that a saturation bombardment with kinetic penetrators is possible.

Mind you, I freely admit that this requires 1) space station with lotsa guns or 2) orbital fire battleship.

I wonder what happened to the space stations they had, the ones that build the Colony Ships for Alternative 5. Its probably where the G bombs come from, as according to your idea of a space station dropping bombs. Of course, on a G bomb would be powerful enough to take out the hive, so the space station idea without using G bombs is kinda usless.

And who says they cant intercept arty that well? It still takes a few minutes to saturate the laser class enough before the shells actually reach them. Thats after using heavy metal smoke clouds.

Originally Posted by Dragonkid11

One question,why heavy metal dust,does ordinary smoke cover cannot be used?

I mean,Lux-class only shoot with line of sight.

If needed,the TSF can use the 120mm cannon to shoot smoke grenade,or just attach smoke generator on to TSF

Also,low cost.

They do use them. All the time. Its only effective for a few minutes, and dependent on weather conditions.
If you watched ep 2 of TE, the smoke charges were not much use. They might only shoot LOS, but do they AIM LOS?

[DoomRavager]

Originally Posted by Dragonkid11

One question,why heavy metal dust,does ordinary smoke cover cannot be used?

I mean,Lux-class only shoot with line of sight.

If needed,the TSF can use the 120mm cannon to shoot smoke grenade,or just attach smoke generator on to TSF

Also,low cost.

Heck if I know. BETA are at least capable of sensing presence of tech as opposed to relying on visual acquisition. Maybe smoke doesn't register to them as obstructing line of sight or something. It's a mystery.

Originally Posted by grevierr

I think the 9 out of a hundred is the reentry capsule surviving the atmosphere burn. Its when they reach the range of the laser class that the rates drop to less than 20%.

And again, they need to target the core of the stub, not the surface. They can barely reach 70% of the laser class in the open, what about in a vertical shaft with folds and protection?

"For each 100 Divers, every time 9 will not make it to the ground, that’s good for the forces of those BETA bastards."
Hmm, the wording is a little open to interpretation I guess? I guess even a 20% success rate is still enough if you deliberately overkill.

And I wasn't suggesting that kinetic bombing alone could take out a Hive, just that it might save some lives if they could make bigger holes in the Hive and kill more BETA than the existing shell drop system does, making life a little easier on the actual infiltration units to follow.

[grevierr]

Originally Posted by DoomRavager

Heck if I know. BETA are at least capable of sensing presence of tech as opposed to relying on visual acquisition. Maybe smoke doesn't register to them as obstructing line of sight or something. It's a mystery.



"For each 100 Divers, every time 9 will not make it to the ground, that’s good for the forces of those BETA bastards."
Hmm, the wording is a little open to interpretation I guess? I guess even a 20% success rate is still enough if you deliberately overkill.

And I wasn't suggesting that kinetic bombing alone could take out a Hive, just that it might save some lives if they could make bigger holes in the Hive and kill more BETA than the existing shell drop system does, making life a little easier on the actual infiltration units to follow.

Its at this point of the vid that I based my comments on. Its quite clear the reentry portion is whats being referred to.

Spoiler for KFC:

Agreed on the 20% for overkill, since thats what they did for Operation Babylon.

While its might save some lives, its not certain it will take out a significant portion of BETA to justify the use. Arty is unaimmed, and BETA tend to be underground. So either using ground penetraters, but not having much spread, or spread without much penetration, is possible with conventional munitions. It took the power of G-Bombs to make it a sustainable strategy.

[Silvance]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

It's not just Alt V I was talking about. The part where US is developing their TSFs as if they are more interested in fighting against other humans than against BETA.

Well, considering that there are nations that takes an aggressive stance against them, they made the right choice and it did help them in the long run. e.g. The battle at the america-canada border.

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Oh, I completely agree - I was just pointing out that for all the claims of "DURR HURR US ARE BAD GUYS",

pragmatists who will shoot the dog if they have to - but at the same time, decent people who try their best to do the right thing.

U.S.? Hardly. What I love about Muv-Luv is that the other countries are not completely without stain either. Let's definitely not forget about Imperial Royal Guards in Hawaii or France dragging Canada for their endeavors. They have understandable reasons why they act that way and the novels shows that as well.

I concur. They did send rations to help France and Canada even though their own citizens were against it. Not to mention, can't blame the American forces in some Fort being upset on the IJA due to them drafting 10 year old kids. Oh, not to mention, it's not unusual for the American citizens to be angry for being relocated and forced to abandon their houses which they worked hard to obtain, just so their foreign ally have a home to stay. I just can't stomach the idea of the U.S. using the reactive bomb considering there's not much fertile land left. Thank God someone put a stop to the war before that was carried out.

[Angrypokstick]

And also here is whats going on with the rest of the world in Muvluv.
In europe the beta advance is stopped at the strait of Dover by the various remaining European military forces.The most powerful being the military of Germany, UK, and France.They are also augmented by an naval US carrier fleet and its marine expedition unit.
Down south the beta is held in check at the Suez canal by the Turkish, Israeli and the Iranians.
In asia its at the Philippines and Taiwan the betas are halted by the USMC and china+taiwan 's surviving forces.
Up north the Russians managed to hold the line just west of magadan in Siberia. And the US leased half of Alaska to the Russians to house their political leaders and refugees.(This area will be the primary point of interest for the Total eclipse anime)

The USA is virtually untouched due to the US air-force nuking canada when a beta hive landed in Manitoba and Saskatchewan before the hive managed to grow any laser classes. Over 40% of canada is radio active and so is part of North Dakota and Minnesota. Brtish columbia, yukon, and Quebec plus everything east of it are the only populated area of Canada now.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

Also, it's worth noting that the Americans didn't shoot first, but the French-Canadians.

knew you can't trust the French or the Canucks.