Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Itadakimasu!

Well, what can I say? I had hoped trinity would bring a new dimension to Celestial Being, and they certainly fulfilled my expectations. However it seems their radical approach (which I tend to agree with given that CB is dealing with 3 superpowers who almost succeeded in taking down the original gundams) is tainted by something far more sinister - the implementation of Aeolia's "true" plans , which seem not to be world peace.

As I mentioned before, there's no indication one way or another that this "ultimate" plan is actually bad. "Mysterious" would work better than "sinsiter," if it weren't for how the Thrones just scream villainy with their blood red GN particles and vicious pilots. For all we know, Schenberg's ultimate goal is to push humanity off of Earth at a faster pace, and the first phase of the Meisters is to reduce conflict that would otherwise get in the way. That's hardly a bad goal.

I don't have anything against Trinity per se. If their aim is to ensure world peace, it would make sense to have a first strike policy because the 3 world powers pose a credible and imminent threat to those aims.

It technically can't be considered a first strike policy, because the gundams are routinely spotted before they get close to their mission area. The MSWAD being caught off guard entirely has been entirely atypical, but I chalk that up to this being the first time CB has directly attacked standing infrastructure. In the half year prior, not once did CB attack a base that wasn't formenting a conflict.

It should be also noted that as of yet there is no Throne "policy" to target the bases because they are a source of conflict. The Thrones attacked MSWAD for one and only one reason: Professor Einheim was there. And as soon as they murdered him, they tried to leave, despite how much of the base was still standing. They were not there to remove the source of a conflict, as has been CB's position since day one. They were there to kill a single man who suspected the truth.

I'm a bit annoyed at Setsuna's "are they even meisters" attitude... i feel its an extension of the messiah complex the original team seems to have... that attitude is nice if you're making a last stand, but doesn't get you anywhere in qualitative or quantitative terms.

Except, the Thrones haven't acted like Meisters up to this point. Whereas the Meisters have acted to reduce conflict when needed, have repeatedly shown mercy, and upheld the beliefs of Celestial Being and not intervened for their own gain, the Thrones have a hyper-aggressive mobile suit sadist, attacked a non-inflamatory military base that wasn't provoking conflict, and all to murder one man for the gain of Celestial Being, the last two of which are contrary to Veda (read: Celestial Being's) standing policy.

Plus, the only source that says they are a legitimate part of Celestial Being is the Throne Pilots themselves, and their sole proof is the Gundams that aren't like any of the other gundams.

So yes, there is plenty of reason to suspect them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by dahak

IIRC the character in Gundam to previously over use that phrase was Olba Frost. And we all know how he and his brother turned out.

Reincarnated into another universe?

[allenephilim88]

I`ve been thinking about this for a while know. The first gundam group was supposed to introduce the gundams to the world and somehow unite the world against them. I think Graham said once that Celestial Being was in the path of self destrution. Of course the Gundams reduced conflicts around the world, but at the same time promoted militarization and new weapons development (custom flags, Taozi). Then, with the apereance of the Thrones, Celestial Being is trying to show total superiority (in episode 15 we saw that 4 gundams werent superior enough to take on the world). I think their goal is to prevent the militarization and new weapons development, begining with the investigations on GN particles (thats why the profesor was killed and probably Kinue will also have the same destiny). Then, probably with the help of the other gundams, they will begin to attack all military instalations. With the time, after all military has been reduced to ashes, the world will be in a relative peace, with Celestial Being punishing the ones who would want to create conflict. It is practically killing to birds with one shot, achieving peace and world domination at the same time. The only thing is, that the first group didn´t know anything and probably no one considered it important to tell them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by allenephilim88

I`ve been thinking about this for a while know. The first gundam group was supposed to introduce the gundams to the world and somehow unite the world against them. I think Graham said once that Celestial Being was in the path of self destrution. Of course the Gundams reduced conflicts around the world, but at the same time promoted militarization and new weapons development (custom flags, Taozi). Then, with the apereance of the Thrones, Celestial Being is trying to show total superiority (in episode 15 we saw that 4 gundams werent superior enough to take on the world). I think their goal is to prevent the militarization and new weapons development, begining with the investigations on GN particles (thats why the profesor was killed and probably Kinue will also have the same destiny). Then, probably with the help of the other gundams, they will begin to attack all military instalations. With the time, after all military has been reduced to ashes, the world will be in a relative peace, with Celestial Being punishing the ones who would want to create conflict. It is practically killing to birds with one shot, achieving peace and world domination at the same time. The only thing is, that the first group didn´t know anything and probably no one considered it important to tell them.

The Taozi and Custom Flag were already at production stage by the time of the series: it's been made clear that normal mobile suit development takes years, and those two suits were out within weeks.


Except, there's no reason for them to have waited to delay the Thrones if they had wanted to pound the Powers into submission, or for them to have delayed targeting the Powers for as long as they have. If they were to "prevent further militarization," then CB should have been hitting the production plants, the military bases, the PMCs, etc. since day one. They haven't. They still haven't, because MSWAD was only attacked because Eifman was there, and he was only murdered because he suspected the truth of CB. If the goal of CB was to overwhelm level the Big Three, they would have unleashed the Thrones, the Meisters, the 0 Gundam, and the non-GN drive gundams at once, or at least attacked the centers of military power. But they didn't. CB has been attacked drug farms, blood diamonds, border skirmishers, and terrorists, all at VEDA's direction. If there's a conflcit in CB's ideals and practice, it's the Thrones who are making waves.

[allenephilim88]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

The Taozi and Custom Flag were already at production stage by the time of the series: it's been made clear that normal mobile suit development takes years, and those two suits were out within weeks.


Except, there's no reason for them to have waited to delay the Thrones if they had wanted to pound the Powers into submission, or for them to have delayed targeting the Powers for as long as they have. If they were to "prevent further militarization," then CB should have been hitting the production plants, the military bases, the PMCs, etc. since day one. They haven't. They still haven't, because MSWAD was only attacked because Eifman was there, and he was only murdered because he suspected the truth of CB. If the goal of CB was to overwhelm level the Big Three, they would have unleashed the Thrones, the Meisters, the 0 Gundam, and the non-GN drive gundams at once, or at least attacked the centers of military power. But they didn't. CB has been attacked drug farms, blood diamonds, border skirmishers, and terrorists, all at VEDA's direction. If there's a conflcit in CB's ideals and practice, it's the Thrones who are making waves.

Well, I have to watch the episode were the Taozi was first shown because as you said, mobile suit development take years and I also doubt the Taozi was built in just weeks, and Celestial Being was responsible at least of the early use of the Taozi. The flag modification to the black custom flag was an idea of the profesor Eifman after Celestial Being apereance. Besides, the only differences of the custom flag and a normal is the propulsion and the rifle, so a few weeks were more than enough.

On the last tought, Im probably wrong as you said. It was only an early conclusion. We still dont know many things, like who are really the heads behind Celestial Being (besides Aolia Schuhenberg), or at what point the meisters can trust Veda, or why Celestial Being would create two gundam teams. Still, I believe that Celestial Being is trying somehow to achieve world dominance to ensure peace.

[HazardNights]

Or they just want world dominance, peace be damned. I think this whole "peace" angle was used to keep the gundam pilots in line and to get people like Sumeragi on board and working for them. It never rang true to me. If that was their goal, like said they would have went right after production areas, military bases, etc destroying all mobile suits, tanks, etc in sight while not targeting humans showing they were after the weapons of war not the people.

The original gundam team though is in a really bad place. Once they figure out they are being used they have no where and no one to turn to. The three powers will destroy them on sight or capture them if possible. They won't be allowed to live for to long after that and people like Sumeragi won't ever see the light of day again if she's allowed to live. CB will want them dead at the same time. Sure the could go off on their own but then they'd have no choice but to disappear into normal civilian lives since they'd have no support to keep up what they are doing. I don

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by HazardNights

Or they just want world dominance, peace be damned. I think this whole "peace" angle was used to keep the gundam pilots in line and to get people like Sumeragi on board and working for them. It never rang true to me. If that was their goal, like said they would have went right after production areas, military bases, etc destroying all mobile suits, tanks, etc in sight while not targeting humans showing they were after the weapons of war not the people.

So, what happens when someone doesn't get out of the mobile suit at 700 ft? Or the factory workers down leae the factory? Even Kira killed by the boatload after his "no kill" resolution, whether by "disarming" (read: decapitating) warships, blowing up MS in space, or blowing up guns inside of ships. No-kill policy is, well, complete and utter bs.

The original gundam team though is in a really bad place. Once they figure out they are being used they have no where and no one to turn to. The three powers will destroy them on sight or capture them if possible. They won't be allowed to live for to long after that and people like Sumeragi won't ever see the light of day again if she's allowed to live. CB will want them dead at the same time. Sure the could go off on their own but then they'd have no choice but to disappear into normal civilian lives since they'd have no support to keep up what they are doing. I don

Again,

Why does everyone assume that the Thrones are the One True Way of Celestial Being? It's the Meisters who follow VEDA, and the Thrones have already tried to confiscate the O Gundam citing VEDA's orders, despite the fact that they aren't een in Veda's memory. The Thrones didn't attack MSWAD to stop war either; they did it to murder a scientist who knew too much. If he had been in an apartment, they would have blown up the apartment. If he had been in a hospital, they would have blown up the hospital.

[Mangaka-chan]

Interesting episode, mostly in regards to character development.

I think this is the first time we've seen Graham look so pissed off and is a turning point for Graham's character. Before he's been fascinated with the Gundams but does not necessarily harbor any ill feelings towards them. Now with the death of Professor Eifman and Howard, Graham's feelings have changed from curiosity to anger. It's one thing to beat him, but to beat him AND kill the people he respects and cares about is something else. (p.s. I’m sad to see Prof. Eifman go; I thought he’d live longer than 17 episodes )

The Trinity siblings are also freaking me out a little. Michael is definitely a psychopath in the making. He's rude, sadistic, and just down right volatile. Even though I thought his little comment about Tieria was funny, the way he killed Howard reminded me a lot of Hallelujah offing Ming. As for Neena I get the feeling that there's an unspoken darkness about her. The way she threatened Setsuna (even with a cute voice) is rather alarming. And when Tieria asked her what exactly are they, the way she smiled cheerfully at him while her face remains hidden in the shadow is kind of ominous. Her constantly flashing the V sign is starting to annoy me as well (not to mention it reminds me way too much of Sailor Moon doing her victory pose ), but that's more of a pet peeve than a major character fault. Johan appears to be the most balanced of the siblings so far. He's not too cheery or too quiet, but the way he talks makes me feel like he'd been brain washed.

I gave the episode a 7/10 because while the development is interesting, I find that I'm not liking the Trinity team due to the things I've mentioned above. Also is it just me or did the animation looked a little inconsistent in this episode? The first half looked a little strange to me, but the fight scene was fine. Maybe they're saving the good animation budget for the fight scenes.

[Itadakimasu!]

Haha what part of the contract you sign when you join up to CB as a Gundam Meister says you have to be merciful?

As the observer guy (forgotten his name) states... the original CB team are treating the gundams as if they were powers given to them from god. His blunt and coldblooded analysis rings true: they are just weapons of war.

If you keep trying to act as 'the good guy' all the time, you're bound to have another Taklaman happen to you. So like it or not, I think that the Trinity and 'their way' are desperately needed to keep the CB mission alive. Even if it means they become the Stick end of things as opposed to Setsuna and co's Carrot.

[ShadowLight]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Where to begin...

And how does the Professor incite a war? The Professor is a materials engineer, almost certainly having been involved in the construction of the Space Elevator which is the single greatest beneficial activity in the world. Meanwhile, Billy is the one who designed the Union Flag (and, by extent, the Enact), which is about as good as a design as any power can reach at this point in time. The Thrones didn't target Eifman because he was working on a new weapon: they targeted him because he was learning the truth behind CB.

Eifman is a materials engineer: his job is to make things stronger, lighter, and more flexible as needed. Billy is a mobile suit developer. All Eifman did was add on to what was already there in terms of quality.

The prof was the one that created the new rifle and improved the flag to be much faster there for allowing them to dodge better. Yes he might have not pulled the trigger but he help design the weapons. If he was to be innocent he should have not improve military weapons. Plus him figuring out what the GN drive is was dangerous. Where do you think he would go from there if you can't create same thing on earth what about shutting it down. What if he figures out a was to disable the GN drives obvioulsy he would tell his superiors who would then have him make it and they would use it. Anyone who tries to stop the CB and the gundams that are trying to stop war is obviously for war, there for should be eliminated.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

...and what, exactly, is to prevent their successors from approving the program as well? With even more money for secrecy, so that the next time it was attempted they could give the attacker a good kick in the teeth?

Nothing but there is a chance that the successors might not be as sick and twisted as to engineer children in to combat machines. Currently you know there is someone in the government with power to approve the project. There would be 50-50 chance that next guy would be bad but it better then the 100% certainty that this one is.

As for why it took so long before trinity showed up. We know that CB is a organization that is bigger then just the crew of Ptolemaios and the 4 gundams. I see them as one unit that was give general directives on how to behave and a computer program named Veda the helps them stay inside those guidelines. But they create their own missions as as we see with the super soilder mission data was brought in and got approved.

I suspect some of the leadership in CB was not happy with the progress they made and the failures. So they send in a second team. In episode 16 they recap all the things that the meisters did wrong. Dynames revealed teh long range sniper. Kyrios the pincer shield and Virtue revealed Nadleeh. Also Sumeragi failed to antciapate the trap that their ship got into until it was too late, for a tactical planner then kind of mistake is in excusable. Not to mention Setsuna opened up his cockpit mid fight increasing the chances of have the Gundam captured. If you were in a leadership role as part of CB wouldn't you be worried after seeing all these mistakes? Might even want to send in a secondary team.

Best of all Setsuna broke the rule of being a Gundam Meister by telling Marina Ismail you know the leader of Kingdom of Azadistan that he is one. Your suppose to keep that fact that you are a miester a secret. I bet if you fed that data into the Veda program the good chance he would be removed from the team. I would have him executed since he is unstable and more of a threat then asset to CB.

We know that CB is not that merciful otherwise they wouldn't use criminals with explosive collars. Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

[allenephilim88]

Originally Posted by Itadakimasu!

Haha what part of the contract you sign when you join up to CB as a Gundam Meister says you have to be merciful?

As the observer guy (forgotten his name) states... the original CB team are treating the gundams as if they were powers given to them from god. His blunt and coldblooded analysis rings true: they are just weapons of war.

If you keep trying to act as 'the good guy' all the time, you're bound to have another Taklaman happen to you. So like it or not, I think that the Trinity and 'their way' are desperately needed to keep the CB mission alive. Even if it means they become the Stick end of things as opposed to Setsuna and co's Carrot.

Well, what would you expect from a military organization called "Celestial Being". They really must think they are above all humans or think they posses godlike powers.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Prof was a scientist he'll always build something better, stronger, faster.

Military tech advancement has always been having an advantage and keeping your own side alive.

Prof. Eifman wasn't killed because he is a weapons developer but because he figured out the mentality and goals of CB.

Eifman suspected CB's actions has something to do with colonization.

It wouldn't surprise me if he read about Schenberg as a budding physicist during his college years.

Many of the theories of Schenberg came true. Solar elevators, Mobile suits, colonization.

Finally he made a connection with the Jupiter expedition 120 years ago.

To be able to think as CB, who are made of menza level people, and figure out their history through research and backtracking sealed his own death.

But then again the Thrones are not part of Veda's plan.

The may have saved the main CB team's posterboy Gundam meisters but they attacked Fershete.

A shadow op group approved by Veda who were in possesion of the second generation Gundams and the GN-000 O Gundam.

They were supposed to do things dirtier than the Gundam meisters could do. Heck their main meister Fon Spark is as crazy or crazier than Michael Trinity or Halleluah. Only than he is smarter than they are. He leaves nobody alive and no witnesses.

Then some Jonny came lately says they're obsolete?

Sounds fishy.

This makes me think there was some schism in CB 86+ years ago involving Veda's plan.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by ShadowLight

The prof was the one that created teh new rifle and improved the flag to be much faster there for allowing them to dodge better.

He helped increase the manuverability, but he had nothing to do with the rifle. That was an experimental design from some company.

Yes he might have not pulled the trigger but he help design the weapons. If he was to be innocent he should have not improve military weapons.

So now you are "innocent" or "guilty" if you play any role in national defense, the punishment for doing so being death at the hands of purely arbitrary, self-appointed vigilante terrorists who have no legal standing to judge a domestic abuse case, let alone death sentances?

Ignoring how screwed up that reasoning is, do you have any idea how interconnected the military-industrial complex is with just about everything? A person who makes radios is a part of the military industrial complex, and thus fit for execution. A person who paves roads is now guilty of aiding and abetting the movement of troops. A janitor helps keep the health of soldiers up by keeping their living quarters clean. He falls under that definiton of guilt.

Plus him figuring out what the GN drive is was dangerous. Where do u think he would go from there if you can't create smaething on earth what about shutting it down. What if he figures out a was to disable the GN drives.

The only group that makes him "dangerous" to is Celestial Being, who's stated guarantee to the people born on Earth is that they will always intervene to eliminate conflict and never intervene for their own benefit. Ever, danger or no. Which is why they went to Taribia. In going out to hunt down a specific individual, the Thrones are violating one of Schenberg's key tenants.

Anyone who tries to stop the CB and the gundams that are trying to stop war is obviously for war, there for should be eleimnated.

What a wonderful logical fallacy: if you disagree with me, you agree with my enemy and should be killed. It's been the justification of tyrants, thugs, despots for mass murder for centuries.

And yet, and this is the kicker, Celestial Being isn't just out to eliminate war. The Meisters might. But Eifman realized that Schenberg doesn't.

Oh, and for the record? The Thrones were only recognized as part of Celestial Being last episode. They aren't in Veda's plans, and no one in Celestial Being has had any clue of their existence, even the Observors who weild veto power.

Nothing but there is a chance that the successors might not be as sick and twisted as to engineer children in to combat machines. Currently you know there is someone in the goverment with power to approve the project. There would be 50-50 chance that next guy would be bad but it better then the 100% certainty that this one is.

Unfunded idealism, much? Such as which hole in your body you pulled that 50-50 out of?

Let's look at the facts:

SuperSoldier Soma is the only member of the HRL to have fought anywhere on even grounds with a gundam. Sergei, for all his planning and trickery and overall eliteness, has barely broken even. HRL aces have a lower life expectancy of a bombadier in WW2.

Celestial Being is shown to have a weakness: one of its pilots becomes a near-cripple (with a chance of raging berserker) in the mere presence of a supersoldier.

Throne!Celestial Being has not openly decided to murder any political or military figure they don't like. They will seek to kill scientists, technicians, and anyone who could possibly ever even potentially form a threat.

Throne!Celestial Being, in intervening for its own sake without casus belli after over 6 months of leaving anyone not instigating war alone, has shown itself determined to force absolute submission. They will not tolerate any power besides themselves.

Throne!Celestial Being will kill you whether you fight back or not, whether you pose a threat or not, whether you want to or not. The only choices to Throne!Celestial Being are victory or death and destruction.


Granted, I'll admit I didn't take a class in ethics, but in the face of constant, unrelenting violence aimed at destroying me, I'm going to fight back, especially with a tool that's been proven to work and can even the odds ever so slightly but significantly.

Because, you know, I want to live. And as a leader of a country, I want my country to live to, and not be a defenseless vasal. Which is what Throne!Celestial Being intends to do if it intends to try and end war merely by destroying national militaries. At least Meister!Celestial Being had the sense to not make the war into a struggle for survival.

(Strange, it sounds like Allelujah would make the perfect opponent to the Thrones.)

[ShadowLight]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

He helped increase the manuverability, but he had nothing to do with the rifle. That was an experimental design from some company.

So now you are "innocent" or "guilty" if you play any role in national defense, the punishment for doing so being death at the hands of purely arbitrary, self-appointed vigilante terrorists who have no legal standing to judge a domestic abuse case, let alone death sentances?

Ignoring how screwed up that reasoning is, do you have any idea how interconnected the military-industrial complex is with just about everything? A person who makes radios is a part of the military industrial complex, and thus fit for execution. A person who paves roads is now guilty of aiding and abetting the movement of troops. A janitor helps keep the health of soldiers up by keeping their living quarters clean. He falls under that definiton of guilt.

The prof directly improved a weapon in this case a mobile suit turning flag into an overflag to fight against the gundams. Anyone can see he carries a much bigger burden of guilt then the janitor you gave as an example.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

And yet, and this is the kicker, Celestial Being isn't just out to eliminate war. The Meisters might. But Eifman realized that Schenberg doesn't.

Who to say this is true just because the Prof assumed that you believe it?

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Oh, and for the record? The Thrones were only recognized as part of Celestial Being last episode. They aren't in Veda's plans, and no one in Celestial Being has had any clue of their existence, even the Observors who weild veto power.

The observers recognized Thrones as past of CB but do you think the observers are the leaders of CB? I don't so the approval or disapproval means nothing to me. Veto power what exactly can they veto.

As for Veda its just a complex computer program. Obviously if you have no data on them they won't be in Veda's plans. You say no one in CB has any clue to their existence. You seem to assume that CB is the crew and the 4 gundams. I think they are just 1 unit the CB organization. Does 1 unit in the military always know about all the other units?

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Whoa whoa whoa the professor was assassinated because he delved too deep into CB and their agenda.

I mean I thought the words, You have Witnessed Too much, was more than obvious enough. Otherwise, he should've been assassinated when he first modified the Flag. (CB already targeted the HRL's newest MS unit prior to it getting released so why not the Americans?)

This is why people are suggesting Kinue is up for grabs because SHE's digging deep into CB and knows there's something else going on.

And the Observers have the power to REMOVE any CB pilot or agent but ONLY if they can reach a decision unaimnously.

And there's obviously a reason for the short opening scene where we see an abandoned space station with some guys searching for something.

[mechalord]

Originally Posted by Terra

The video was a Kinue's program that she started work on in ep 9. He's refering to the ability that she has over the ability that the government has to find out things. Kinue is one person. They have their entire country's intelligence department to find out things. Governments like to control what comes out in public. Kinue's digging is dangerous not only because of CB but essentially she could also end up being targeting by one of the powers if she finds out something they don't want public knowledge. Thoes 3 guys definately aren't CB. Otherwise you wouldn't have had the dig at the HRL guy over the Super Soldier program before they got down to business.

That would be excuse for her to meet Lockon. Oh look, Lockon is visiting Setsuna when Kinue is in danger. He saves her and you know. . . She's swept off her feet.

[ReddyRedWolf]

The observers has no clue as to the origins of the Thrones because they don't know where their GN drives comes from.

In Gundam 00P 15 years before, 10 second gen Gundams were to be built but their are only 5 GN drives.

Four is in the care of the Gundam Meisters. The last is with Fershette.

As Felt said her parents didn't tell her about more Gundams.
Even Haro and Hanayo (cat eared Haro with a jail bait catgirl hologram avatar), terminals of Veda have no clue as to the origins of the Thrones.

Remember that the scavenger 80 years ago said that the purple Haro was a treasure.

It is likely they developed the GN drive Tau from the data of that Haro.

Don't know about you guys but I'm getting a Earthers vs Colonists vibes from the Thrones.

Remember Soma can sense the Throne meisters. (Newtype reaction, Michael may be a Newtype able to operate the Fangs.)

Also Neena can interface with Veda which as far as weve seen Tieria is the only other one who uses that method.

I think Aeolia Schenberg may have pulled a George Glenn and started a colony in the outer planets.

Veda and the Throne's plans may be a preventive war to protect colonies.

Only that Throne's are beat Earth to the ground while Veda's is reinforcement through interventions before Earth humans start going out there.

[Jeffry2009]

Just newly watched episode 17, all i have to know is

NEVER EVER TRUST THOSE THRONES.

and then my expectation could be another Face-off Between Ali & setsuna. then The Thrones interfered then Meister VS Thrones fight each other instead.

WOW. GRAHAM ACRE PISSES OFF WHEN THE THRONES SHOWs up. Howard mason is dead then the professor.

*sorry about the big fonts because i'm so excited just now.*

[mechalord]

I think Libbons (I think that's his name) is jovian. I'm getting the feeling that the Jupiter expedition team super evolved and that there could have been an expedition to jupiter even earlier than 120 years ago. The scientists built a GN drive around jupiter 120 years ago and then sent it back, It tooks years to reach Earth. Eventually they were discovered by an earlier expedition sent 80 years before it. . . Schenbergs party. They were then all murdered. A few decades later, the Observers send a team to check up on the installation. They are captured by Schenberg's colony but this time they are sent back with an emissary.


And maybe this is where the schism happened. Around 80 years ago one of the Observers was shocked at the technology of the jovians and decided he had to come up with a plan just in case they ever decided to invade Earth. CB was then born.

They probably had access to a prototype GN drive built on jupiter, the only one sent back before they could have lost contact with the original expedition. Anyhow, for the first 40 years they studied it and tried to figure out a way to make one without jupiter. They worked on the problem but it wasn't a priority. Then after the 40 years when they sent someone to check up on them and they returned with info on this civilization.. . . it became a top priority to learn to build them without the convenience of jupiter.

By that time the space elevators could have been in the planning, design, and early contruction phases. With the Observers resources they could have flooded the project with CB personnel and then built the 5 GN drives right under the noses of everyone using power from the first solar collector and space elevator.

[tbl]

Well, was is it just me, or did it seem that the Thrones' pilots were effectively walking around with signs around the necks saying "evil and/or insane?" And did the person who designed that Haro go out of their way to make it look evil?