[Manga] Naruto Chapter 645 Discussion Thread

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by Monster0

They way Madara explains it to Obito, according to translation,is that tsukiyomi pulls you into a dimension,similar to Obitos.So you don't exist in two places at once,you enter a dimension like were kakashi is stuck now. No fear of snake bites or worse some perv fondling. By dream world they mean ideal world.The things within this dimension well take physical form not like holograms but actual solids made from chakra.To just stand,sit or lay there in reality and live in the mind matrix is not what it's like.

That is how it happened in the Road to Ninja movie. Obito cast a limited Tsukuyomi on Naruto and Sakura. They were physically trapped in the dimension which hosted the genjutsu world. So they didn't exist in the real world anymore. The genjusu world was shaped by their desires and the world was shared by Naruto and Sakura. Naruto wanted parents and got both Minato and Kushina. Sakura wanted more freedom and to be proud of her parents. Her father became the Fourth Hokage and died protecting Konoha like Minato should have. Obito was able to enter this genjutsu world and influence it, but didn't have any control over the world.

Both Naruto and Sakura knew they were in a genjutsu world, but initially didn't want to leave because their desires were being met. Then they both accepted they were happier in the real world.

That is probably what will happen with the Alliance. Kishi loves his life lessons, so expect everyone to be happy at first. Until they realize that the crummy real world with its death and pain was better. Then they will try and break out.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

That is how it happened in the Road to Ninja movie. Obito cast a limited Tsukuyomi on Naruto and Sakura. They were physically trapped in the dimension which hosted the genjutsu world. So they didn't exist in the real world anymore. The genjusu world was shaped by their desires and the world was shared by Naruto and Sakura. Naruto wanted parents and got both Minato and Kushina. Sakura wanted more freedom and to be proud of her parents. Her father became the Fourth Hokage and died protecting Konoha like Minato should have. Obito was able to enter this genjutsu world and influence it, but didn't have any control over the world.

i see this as kind of a monkeys fist type of wish world. what if one person desired something that another person didn't want? for instance i hardly think orochimaru's dream world or madara's would jive with hashirama's or naruto's. so how could they all coexist in the same dimension of sunshine and lollipops?

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

he stopped time? when he had sasuke in the tsukiyomi, zetsu was watching their bodies stand motionless right? and for kakashi, iirc he just made (let's say 1 second) feel like weeks of torture for him

i think it was 72hrs. inconsequential i know, just me tryna get in on this here convo

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

well, to be fair, i don't really like any of those examples either. but like i said earlier, what you're proposing is entirely possible, i just don't like the idea of it. which almost ensures that it will happen since the manga has been getting worse and worse lately for me personally. the idea of obito's heart and left arm existing in one dimension and the rest of his body in another is confusingly awful to me. same with izanagi/izanami. i wish they never existed. and orochimaru's multiple consciousnesses is sloppy at best. i'm kind of indifferent toward teleportation, but i could do without it. to me, all those types of techniques take away from the fun and creativity of the way the techniques used to be. i'm in favor of never having the god-like abilities and sticking to just chakra-based techs, illusions and straight up taijutsu, but that's just me in other words, i like when the characters felt like actual (although mystical for certain) ninjas as opposed to gods

i agree with the above, i guess my question now is, wasn't this particular development expected? DBZ mimicry aside, i suppose up until the pain fight (the jiraiya version i think), the answer is no. but once we are introduced to the rinnegan and story of the sage of six paths, and likely return of the juubi, power levels were expected to surge in order to match up.

nevertheless, i have high hopes for IT. the pacing was a bit off/rushed but now it seems as though it was done to get us to this alternate illusion which is just a near blank canvas for some very interesting plot IMO...but we'll see

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

so are you suggesting that IT makes everyone immortal? like i said, anything is possible, but these ideas keep getting worse as far as i'm concerned. just my opinion of course

Wouldn't Tobito want to be with Rin for eternity?

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

he stopped time? when he had sasuke in the tsukiyomi, zetsu was watching their bodies stand motionless right?

He watched them motionless while they were inside normal genjutsu, there were two other genjutsu before tsukiyomi, you probably remember those. Remember when Chiyo explains that they can fight Itachi's genjutsu easily by helping each other, but then Kakashi explains that it would not work.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

in other words, i like when the characters felt like actual (although mystical for certain) ninjas as opposed to gods

I find stupid jutsu to be more annoying than godlike jutsu, for example substituting your body with a log and hiding and nobody noticing that is quite stupid I mean if you have time to go and find a log or summon it and then come back and put it at the place your body was then hide somewhere else then why not just use all that effort to fight. Also why would anyone not notice that. Was it maybe a log-summoning-while-the-log-revese-summons-you? There's no way to make sense of it. I think that was called kawarimi, worst jutsu ever

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

i agree with the above, i guess my question now is, wasn't this particular development expected? DBZ mimicry aside, i suppose up until the pain fight (the jiraiya version i think), the answer is no. but once we are introduced to the rinnegan and story of the sage of six paths, and likely return of the juubi, power levels were expected to surge in order to match up.

yea, but pain is what started this whole ninja god issue to begin with. so you are correct, but it's also when i stopped fully liking the series. there have been awesome moments and fights and developments since then, but i don't like this war and the god-level stuff

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Wouldn't Tobito want to be with Rin for eternity?

i think even he would get tired of talking about rin for an eternity... well, maybe not

He watched them motionless while they were inside normal genjutsu, there were two other genjutsu before tsukiyomi, you probably remember those. Remember when Chiyo explains that they can fight Itachi's genjutsu easily by helping each other, but then Kakashi explains that it would not work.

this is the narutopedia definition which i concur with: Itachi's prowess with (tsukuyomi) has allowed him to alter the perception of time with ease within the genjutsu to make a few seconds seem like many days as a means to torture the target.

so it's not instant or time stopping. i think what kakashi meant by instantaneous is that the moment you met his MS eyes he could put you into it so there's no delay for hand signs or something like that.

I find stupid jutsu to be more annoying than godlike jutsu, for example substituting your body with a log and hiding and nobody noticing that is quite stupid I mean if you have time to go and find a log or summon it and then come back and put it at the place your body was then hide somewhere else then why not just use all that effort to fight. Also why would anyone not notice that. Was it maybe a log-summoning-while-the-log-revese-summons-you? There's no way to make sense of it. I think that was called kawarimi, worst jutsu ever

yea i always thought it was kind of dumb too. i would have preferred the standard smoke screen as a distraction to escape instead of these logs that all have the same shape for some reason...

[Cookie-Monster]

Not a big fan of transformations. Naruto is at its weakest when the fights involve bijuu transformations, or monster transformations of any kind. (eg curse seal 2 etc) . They just look goofy, and the dynamics of the fight itself becomes stale. (summons are cool enough, just not the physical transformation into non-human monsters/shapes)

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Cookie-Monster

Not a big fan of transformations. Naruto is at its weakest when the fights involve bijuu transformations, or monster transformations of any kind. (eg curse seal 2 etc) . They just look goofy, and the dynamics of the fight itself becomes stale. (summons are cool enough, just not the physical transformation into non-human monsters/shapes)

yea me too. i like the chakra cloak with tails like the VotE and deidara fights, but the 4 tails vs orochimaru and bee stage 2 look goofy. they should just be the cloaks with more tails. i actually really liked the orochimaru vs 4 tails fight, i just think the design of naruto 4 tails is goofy. the more kishi keeps the ninjas looking human the better. it's tough to relate to a giant beast looking monstrosity

[milan kyuubi]

The next two jump releases will have early release because those relative Mondays will be holidays in japan..

16th September is the Keirou no Hi (Respect for the aged day)

23th September is the Shoubun no Hi (Autumn equinox day)

That means the next two chapter of Naruto will be out on Tuesday instead of Wednesday.

Yay!

[Monster0]

Originally Posted by Cookie-Monster

Not a big fan of transformations. Naruto is at its weakest when the fights involve bijuu transformations, or monster transformations of any kind. (eg curse seal 2 etc) . They just look goofy, and the dynamics of the fight itself becomes stale. (summons are cool enough, just not the physical transformation into non-human monsters/shapes)

The best part of the Naruto series are the bijuu. The whole things starts with a bijuu and well end with a bijuu. But not all monster transformations are bijuu related.One of my favorite monster transformations is Orochimaru,but he don't have to transform that much,he comes all monster like. Monsters transformations make the whole series worthwhile.I would have never even picked up this manga if all it was about was boring everyday ninjas i've seen a billion times before.Bring on the monsters the magic and the mayhem.

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by Monster0

The best part of the Naruto series are the bijuu. The whole things starts with a bijuu and well end with a bijuu. But not all monster transformations are bijuu related.One of my favorite monster transformations is Orochimaru,but he don't have to transform that much,he comes all monster like. Monsters transformations make the whole series worthwhile.I would have never even picked up this manga if all it was about was boring everyday ninjas i've seen a billion times before.Bring on the monsters the magic and the mayhem.

If I want to watch giant monsters, I'll go watch a Godzilla movie. Or Pacific Rim. The biju are some of the worst parts of Naruto. When they are used in fights, it is impossible to follow what is happening because of the way Kishi draws it. Bigger isn't always better.

I hate the monster transformations. It does make characters harder to identify with. Throw too much crap on Naruto and he is not Naruto anymore. Just some walking powerup. There were never ninja in Naruto. They were always basically wizards. But the series is at its best when these wizards act more like ninja. Rather than the DBZ/Hellsing characters we have now.

[Artimus_Prime]

Yeah the bijuu transformations are a bit cumbersome to follow in manga. But I think animated and in video games they are quite cool. I actually don't mind the kinds of transformations like we see in 4tails naruto vs oro but I would prefer if the jinchuriki kept their own minds while in that state...
Now what I don't like is susanoo... Not to anger the uchiha fans in the building, but as badass as itachi is summoning an ghost warrior to do the fighting for you takes something away. The fight might as well be all genjutsu.
I'm not really sure how "ninja" fight other than swords, Nunchuks, stars etc. but I would like to see the series transition/revert to good ol fashion taijutsu attacks while mixing in some nature manipulation here and there. Sage mode naruto vs juubito should be on the level of ss4 gogeta vs janemba,..body full of holes from 13ft away. Straight beat down action . Not that one-sided but you get the point

[itachi-san314]

^yea, susano'o is in the same category. i think it took away from itachi's mystique that he could summon this giant invincible warrior to fight. and now susano'os are all over the place. it's like big O out there...

Originally Posted by Monster0

The whole things starts with a bijuu and well end with a bijuu.

also, this statement is misleading. the series didn't start with a bijou like they are known now. the kyuubi was a recurring natural disaster that was contained within a baby. the other tailed beasts were an after thought. even gaara's wasn't known as the 1 tail, it was shukaku, another demon creature that was contained in a ninja. i found these monsters much more interesting as an obstacle the ninja's had to overcome as opposed to giant mech warriors they could ride inside of and battle like this is NGE or something

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

^yea, susano'o is in the same category. i think it took away from itachi's mystique that he could summon this giant invincible warrior to fight. and now susano'os are all over the place. it's like big O out there...

Ha! That's funny

[Monster0]

Yeah, giant ghost warriors,8 headed dragons,monster fire breathing toads,etc...
Sounds like a bunch of crazy Japanese folklore.I love it.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Monster0

Yeah, giant ghost warriors,8 headed dragons,monster fire breathing toads,etc...
Sounds like a bunch of crazy Japanese folklore.I love it.

yeah yeah yeah the folklore stuff is very cool. i particularly enjoyed reading up on izanami, izanagi, amy, tsuki, and susa when they were first introduced to the story. and in regards to you original post about the monsters making the manga worthwhile, i respect that. it just would have been cool for example, if after going through the trouble of gaining control of kuramas chakra, he could create a bijou bomb on his own without having to transform to a full size kyuubi. ultimately though i suppose I'm not too bothered as it'll likely be cool animated and the monster transformations make really good boss battles in the video games

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

also, this statement is misleading. the series didn't start with a bijou like they are known now. the kyuubi was a recurring natural disaster that was contained within a baby. the other tailed beasts were an after thought. even gaara's wasn't known as the 1 tail, it was shukaku, another demon creature that was contained in a ninja. i found these monsters much more interesting as an obstacle the ninja's had to overcome as opposed to giant mech warriors they could ride inside of and battle like this is NGE or something

but if we consider the story for what it is today, that statement is more definitive than not right? i mean sure kurama was introduced as a natural disaster, but by the end of part 1/early part 2 he was defined as 1 of 9 magical beasts. all this stuff in the ninja world did originally start with a 10 tailed progenitor bijou and the story has now wrapped back around to it.

[Poetic Justice]

I feel like Sasuke is the only one at the moment who can use his sharingan to counter infinite tsukuyomi.

[Cookie-Monster]

Can't quote everyone so I'll just reply in genral (in response to the replies about transformations)

The problem (for me) with the transformations is threefold.

1) The designs of the monster transformations are generally quite bad. They often look really really goofy as I said. This is in stark contrast to the wonderful (read: badass) appearance of the shinobi themselves. When I first started reading the manga, I always enjoyed the various exotic appearances the shinobi had. Their clothing styles, their accessories, their weapons, etc. Overall kishi has quite a talent for drawing cool looking characters that appeal to the 11 year old in us all. The monster transformations really arent up to par. The first time I saw Gaara transform into the one tail I was dissapointed with how silly it looked. I mean c'mon , compare the design of gaara himself (too awesome) to the stupid design of shukaku.
To make matters worse, giant monsters in general are quite hard to do well. Alien 1 was fantastic in part because the monster was kept offscreen. In later alien movies, the appeal was lost when we actually saw the giant slimy alien. Its very hard to pull off convincing monsters. (Kisame sharkman? Oh god no)

2) Big giant monsters have big boring attack styles. Smashing stuff and throwing giant chakra balls is no-where near as interesting as a direct fight between two shinobi. In the manga it also makes the fights really difficult to follow. The whole panel is covered with debris and annoying lines meant to signify big scary attacks.

3) The transformations speed up the power-ups too fast and automatically cause a severe case of "stand around and watch" for allies in the vicinity. Even while fighting powerful opponents like Raikage, other shinobi were still of use and participating to an extent. But once the transformations begin ... it turns into a what seems like a giant teddybear punching match.

Even when the transformation is not into a full-monster, it always seems as if manga writers become lazy in their design when it comes to drawing the new scary shape.

I mean COME ON! He looks like a transvestite who let a group of kindergarten kids attack him with crayola.

Spoiler for See me:

[itachi-san314]

^yea i completely agree on the artistic comments. the 2 that bother me the most are orochimaru's snake transformation with the long hair... that is just stupid. and i also really hate hachibi's design. a bull octopus? and the thing that bothers me most about him is his eyes. why does he have constant surprise eyes? it's just a white circle with a bunch of crappy black outline circles... at least kurama and shukaku have cool looking eyes. hachibi's are beyond awful looking and just seem lazy to me

[Cookie-Monster]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

^yea i completely agree on the artistic comments. the 2 that bother me the most are orochimaru's snake transformation with the long hair... that is just stupid. and i also really hate hachibi's design. a bull octopus? and the thing that bothers me most about him is his eyes. why does he have constant surprise eyes? it's just a white circle with a bunch of crappy black outline circles... at least kurama and shukaku have cool looking eyes. hachibi's are beyond awful looking and just seem lazy to me

Ya orochimaru and hachibi are pretty bad. But for me the Kisame's transformation was ... lol.

With that being said, I do enjoy the pesonality features of the bijuu. Its their main saving grace. The guy who did a voice-over for Gaara's shukaku was particularly awesome.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Cookie-Monster

Can't quote everyone

Yes you can . Just use the "+quote" button (next to the "quote" button) at the bottom-right of every post you wish to quote.

Originally Posted by Cookie-Monster

2) Big giant monsters have big boring attack styles. Smashing stuff and throwing giant chakra balls is no-where near as interesting as a direct fight between two shinobi. In the manga it also makes the fights really difficult to follow. The whole panel is covered with debris and annoying lines meant to signify big scary attacks.

Honestly, the only real difference between the Bijuu/Giants attacks and fight paneling and the shinobi/regular-size attacks and fight paneling is scale. Otherwise, Giants still fight nearly exactly the same as shinobi (same type of techniques, just a larger scale; and same basic setup of the fights).

As an aside, I have never had any real problems following the paneling of the fights (there are, of course, some confusing moments scattered throughout the series, but no particular trend).