Bakemonogatari - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[ickem]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

That was also explained in anime but through those Japanese texts.

Ah, I never pause to read that stuff.

[zato_1one]

The different is that monkey's paw will grant any wish. No matter what method. It will eventually make the wish come true. But for rainy devil, it can grant only a negative wish. If the wish doesn't have any negative thought, it can't be fulfilled. For example, the rainy devil couldn't solve Senjougahara's problem even if Kanbaru wished for it. Because there was no negative or malice side of that wish.

[tarajis]

Originally Posted by ickem

Hitagi's joke about the flood and fire just meant that she was planning to set fire to Kanbaru's house and I guess the flood is from the firefighters raining water onto it.

Heh! So that was just a joke... that line was bugging me for quite a while now... I thought that there was a deeper meaning to it... but I still think she'll do just that if she ever found out what Kanburu did to Ararararagi (Shitsurei, kamimashita!) at the rail tracks... FIRE!!!

[Xacual]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

The different is that monkey's paw will grant any wish. No matter what method. It will eventually make the wish come true. But for rainy devil, it can grant only a negative wish. If the wish doesn't have any negative thought, it can't be fulfilled. For example, the rainy devil couldn't solve Senjougahara's problem even if Kanbaru wished for it. Because there was no negative or malice side of that wish.

I'm pretty sure Oshino said that if Kanbaru had just wished to be faster, that was all that would have happened, but thats not what she wished for, she wished to hurt her classmates.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by ickem

The monkey's paw was just Kanbaru's mistaken interpretation of her Kaii. She found it when she was in grade school if I remember right. The anime left out the comprehensive explanation.

Spoiler for explaination of rainy devil:

I've forgotten some of the details, but I think the difference was that the monkey's paw would have fulfilled her wishes in a straightforward manner instead of how it turned out. The rainy devil, being a devil, feeds off her negative thoughts and tries to fulfill her wishes in "evil" ways. I think it was also explained that had all 3 wishes been fulfilled, she would lose or soul or something like that. Either way, the paw would have taken over her entire body instead of just her arm.

Hmm... that doesn't quite answer my question. The rainy devil was the oddity that Kanbaru encountered, while the monkey paw was the artefact she inherited from her parents. The wish-giving properties of either entity were just that, properties specific only to them. My query, though, is this: What caused Kanbaru to encounter the devil?

Was the devil residing inside the paw? Or, was it like Senjougahara's crab, always present and yet not present at the same time? What was it, specifically, about Kanbaru's condition that attracted the devil to her?

Also, what's so special about a "rainy devil" that allowed Oshino to guess immediately that it was the oddity that possessed Kanbaru?

In other words, what's the link between the devil, the paw and Kanbaru?

[Xacual]

No, she thought it was a monkey paw, when in actuality it was a rainy devil.

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by Xacual

I'm pretty sure Oshino said that if Kanbaru had just wished to be faster, that was all that would have happened, but thats not what she wished for, she wished to hurt her classmates.

From what I understand, she really wished to be faster. But in her subconscious, she hated her classmates and wanted to hurt them. Rainy devil took that negative thought as a wish.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by ickem

Ah, I never pause to read that stuff.

I watch the episode on my PS3 with the PS3 Media Server, so my finger is on the pause button the entire episode. Its impossible to read it all without pausing.

[-Sho-]

I don't read etheir but with virtual dub i think you can maybe lol

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Xacual

No, she thought it was a monkey paw, when in actuality it was a rainy devil.

But why a rainy devil? It could have been any other devil in mythology, from Asmodeus to Mammon or, more likely, Amon, the demon of wrath.

Why "rainy"? What does rain have to do with Kanbaru's condition? Why her association with water?

Bear in mind that every oddity revealed so far is based on a pun linked somehow to a character's name or background. In this sense, I'm not seeing how the rainy devil is linked to Kanbaru at all.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

But why a rainy devil? It could have been any other devil in mythology, from Asmodeus to Mammon or, more likely, Amon, the demon of wrath.

Why "rainy"? What does rain have to do with Kanbaru's condition? Why her association with water?

Bear in mind that every oddity revealed so far is based on a pun linked somehow to a character's name or background. In this sense, I'm not seeing how the rainy devil is linked to Kanbaru at all.

Ever thought that the author of these stories just came up with a random name just to screw with you guys.

I say it is a red herring.

He's been messing with standard Manga/Anime "tropes" so far knowing how canon focused and detail fetish you people are.

Start a story in the middle, then create a prequel, then create a sequel... GENIUS !

[aulzon]

I think the Rainy Devil is probably just plain as the name seems. A lesser devil that makes the user wear a raincoat, hence the Rainy part of the name.

[Reekon]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Why "rainy"? What does rain have to do with Kanbaru's condition? Why her association with water?

Maybe because the author wanted to justify the use of the raincoat?

Yeah I think he's messing with us. Maybe he just "needed" to use a raincoat to hide Kanbaru's face during her attacks.

Possible thought process:
- So let's use a raincoat to hide Kanbaru's face.
- If I use a raincoat, then I better relate it to the oddity.
- Ah-hah! Let's call the oddity "rainy devil".

[Narona]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Personally, I'm curious who he fought with in the fast-forward flashback shown in Ep1. He was depicted carrying a huge upside-down crucifix (suggesting what, I wonder? That he's the anti-Christ? More accurately, though, that's the Cross of St Peter he wears as earrings), facing down a sinister, cloaked figure, with poor Araragi caught in the middle.

I remembered some things about that and Saint Peter, so I checked some books, and apparently it's not. (I need to watch the ep1 again though; to see if the christ is on this big cross)

Now we don't know a lot of things about Oshino. Does he work alone for example? Or for the church?

These reversed crosses clearly points out at saint peter. Maybe there are clues in prayers or the litanie of saint peter. But now I don't feel like searching why the author used it (lazy )

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

From what I understand, she really wished to be faster. But in her subconscious, she hated her classmates and wanted to hurt them. Rainy devil took that negative thought as a wish.

It's not just that. It's about why she wanted to be faster. She hated her classmates because they made fun of her and wanted to show them up by winning the footrace. The devil just cut out the indirect part of the wish and beat them up directly. Her wish had always involved an element of "defeating" her classmates out of hatred. It's not like it just granted a random subconscious wish for no reason.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by Narona

I remembered some things about that and Saint Peter, so I checked some books, and apparently it's not. (I need to watch the ep1 again though; to see if the christ is on this big cross)

Now we don't know a lot of things about Oshino. Does he work alone for example? Or for the church?

These reversed crosses clearly points out at saint peter. Maybe there are clues in prayers or the litanie of saint peter. But now I don't feel like searching why the author used it (lazy )

LOL

Man you guys are really trying adsorb all the details huh ?

[SonOfHeaven]

Just saw the episode. This was my favorite episode so far in the series. Araragi going so far to help someone and Senjougahara at the end was great.

Looking forward to the next episode.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

LOL

Man you guys are really trying adsorb all the details huh ?

!

[rocket]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Bear in mind that every oddity revealed so far is based on a pun linked somehow to a character's name or background. In this sense, I'm not seeing how the rainy devil is linked to Kanbaru at all.

I felt the same way. The raincoat was a link. The monkey was a link.

It's a case of finding another demon that could cause a mistaken identity with your 'run of the mill' cursed Monkey's Paw.

I wonder if there is some 'monkey in the rain' type demon mythology. Kinda like 'gorillas in the mist' (^_-)

Hmm.. Google says, "definitely maybe." Aftendeamon, first identified by Karl Schlesier in 1959. Ape/Monkey Demon identified as a rain god based on similarities to the Mesoamerican rain deity Tlaloc. It has a military aspect and has the same running stance seen in warrior representations.

http://books.google.com/books?id=sjB...0demon&f=false

I haven't checked, but in my first sub it's spelled Rainey. Secret Window tribute to match the Patton tribute?

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

The different is that monkey's paw will grant any wish. No matter what method. It will eventually make the wish come true. But for rainy devil, it can grant only a negative wish. If the wish doesn't have any negative thought, it can't be fulfilled. For example, the rainy devil couldn't solve Senjougahara's problem even if Kanbaru wished for it. Because there was no negative or malice side of that wish.

If I remember correctly, the explanation goes like this:

The Monkey's Paw is a Machiavellian entity that grants one's wish, sometimes in an unexpected and evil method. On the other hand, the Rainey Devil peers deep down into the subconscious desires of the user, and grants what he or she really wants.

The whole episode talks about that there's always something left unsaid in every wording of a wish—something deep down—a darker desire reflecting what the wish really means. When Kanbaru wished to be the 'fastest' runner in her team, the arm beat up her competitors instead. It was not that she didn't want to be the fastest, but rather she wanted to be the fastest because she hated those four kids who have been teasing her and wanted them to pay.

The episode implies that she wishes for her and Senjougahara to get back together again—most likely in a romantic fashion this time around—but the other hidden side of her wish consists of her anger and resentment towards Araragi, whom Senjougahara is now involved with. In other words, deep down inside what she really desires is to get rid of him, and this is why Araragi becomes a marked man. However, the contract becomes void because by killing Araragi, Senjougahara would seek vengeance against her in return, thereby preventing the condition of her and Kanbaru settling into a relationship of any kind whatsoever.

When the devil realizes this, the contract becomes null and void, and thus it leaves.


Even amidst a cast of characters wrought by their own personal issues, this isn't exactly a pretty portrayal of Kanbaru. I'm glad she learns her lesson.