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**Klashikari** · 2013-12-02, 13:08

I realize that the thread had often its share of overboard responses whatsoever, but I will ask you all to keep in mind that debate are only proper discussions so long everyone are on good terms with what's necessary for a debate and common sense.

If anything is going wrong or haywire, please report it. But please do not escalate any discussion needlessly.

Also, I'm wondering if the spoiler thread isn't outliving its actual life span considering the arguments being quite cyclic as of late. No actual decision has been made yet, but either a new, better directed thread should be necessary, or purely and simply put this one on a permanent retirement.

GreyZone · 2013-12-02, 13:14

I understand what you mean and if it had been a few months earlier I would have probably agreed with you. However lately there was new content in the form of the EP8 manga coming, so I do think that this thread has a future for now.

(This thread being closed for a moment did shock me a bit to be honest)

jTiKey · 2013-12-02, 13:15

For the reason above, I won't have a conversations with any of you, except Pocuma or any new user I will meet here, who will want debates. If you don't wanna me here, and resolve all rosatrice debated, but reporting for no reason, I don't want to talk to you either. Have a nice day.

Renall · 2013-12-02, 13:15

I think things might be better-served by newer, more directed threads, but I'd be at a loss as to what specific things would be suitable. I do think it would be problematic to shut the thread down outright without a replacement, as this seems to be the primary source for discussion of the series at all at the moment.

**Klashikari** · 2013-12-02, 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

(This thread being closed for a moment did shock me a bit to be honest)

This measure is sometimes used to prevent additional posts being visible which could worsen the situation. It also works wonder when people has to calm down a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

I think things might be better-served by newer, more directed threads, but I'd be at a loss as to what specific things would be suitable. I do think it would be problematic to shut the thread down outright without a replacement, as this seems to be the primary source for discussion of the series at all at the moment.

As far as it goes, replacement will be provided should the spoiler thread is put to retirement.
Meanwhile, since I don't particularly follow the manga, I would like to know the progress of ep8 as of now. Perhaps it would be best to make a new thread once it is fully completed.

GoldenLand · 2013-12-02, 13:25

I don't think that this thread should be shut down without a replacement. This is a really good, interesting thread in general, in my opinion. It would be a real pity for it to close, and I doubt the subforum would last long without it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jTiKey

For the reason above, I won't have a conversations with any of you, except Pocuma or any new user I will meet here, who will want debates. If you don't wanna me here, and resolve all rosatrice debated, but reporting for no reason, I don't want to talk to you either. Have a nice day.

I didn't report you. However, I don't think we were getting anywhere with our discussion, so there's no need to pick it back up again.

ALPHA-Beatrice · 2013-12-02, 13:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Ah, of course. And there's also the other red... Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left.

So, Kanon never left the room. However, Kanon does not exist in the guest room.

Where did Kanon go? Kanon did not leave the guest room, yet Kanon does not exist in the guest room.

The biggest problem I have with Ryukishi's game 6 riddle, is that he pretty much ruled it out in the 4th game.

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!

A different person cannot claim his name!

Allow me to augment Lambda-sama's red with my Blue Truth.

If GM Battler were to argue that Lambda-Sama's red only pertained to the Fourth Game, then equally he couldn't have used Beato's Red Truth to prove to Dlanor that there was reason to believe that he could be The Man From 19 Years Ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenland

Sorry, but I have to press you on this issue, because you haven't answered the question at all. That scene is stated to be something which reveals Beatrice's heart, and reveals the biggest mystery of the gameboards, which is the same thing as killing Beatrice. It has to be something major. Something vital, which would reveal Rosa's heart and her biggest riddle.

Erika not really existing because she was only there due to a special rule does not even begin to be important enough. Is Erika a part of Rosa's heart, her biggest riddle, and is revealing her to not to have existed on Prime the same thing as killing Rosa? That seems to be what you're saying, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

If Rosatrice theory is to be defended at all, it must be able to account for why the solution to that locked room was so vitally important. Surely, if you believe that Rosatrice is correct, you have no need to shy away from answering that question.

Allow me to take a stab at this if you will. In the First two games, the connection between Maria and Beatrice is clearly made.

Are we to argue that Yasu and Maria established a connection, or at the very least
shared the same ideas?

While we know that Rosa spent a fair amount of time on Rokkenjima, Maria(obviously) wasn't alive at that time. Rosa also Was the one who found the Kuwadorian Beatrice

We also know that Rosa feels a tremendous amount of guilt for "killing" the Kuwadorian Beatrice When Will confronted her in the 7th game.

I'd also argue that the biggest riddle was revealed not during the 6th game.

But towards the end of the 5th game.

Battler hinted towards the idea that Beatrice was aiming for "a miracle so unlikely it was like finding a pebble amongst the sand". What could a miracle so unlikely be?

What if the 'Miracle' is the revival part of the Ceremony? The idea that everyone'll come back to life, including perhaps even the Kuwadorian Beatrice?

Golden Bug-Hunter · 2013-12-02, 13:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by jTiKey

The crime wasn't done for hating the entire family.
And as a group of people together they got along fine. By they may have individual issues with ech other in particular .

The applicability of The family was getting along fine' to other game boards is not the same as whether or not it was the motive for murder. They are two different questions.

And no, they didn't really get along as a group in the first four game boards either. Remember Eva sniping at Natsuhi over every little thing? That wasn't limited to when other people weren't around. Remember Rosa's 'Best Mom Ever' moments? She didn't hold back just because the other cousins were watching. I don't think things like that are really compatible with the idea of the family getting along fine when they're all together in public and not discussing the money. There are some deep seated issues there that probably could have been healed, but were not portrayed as such in the first few game boards.

Pocuma · 2013-12-02, 13:52

Perhaps a new thread for "alternative theories" or something could be useful? In order to keep things a bit more tidy. Then we could keep this thread for discussing new materials, spoilers and the “official theory” while still having another thread for alternative theories (both serious and not-so-serious).

Discussion and debate are one of the core elements of Umineko, so it’s bound to be quite a lot of posts right? Although I agree that it’s starting to get quite a cynical tone, let’s keep in mind that we all have our own opinions and interpretations. Part of Umineko’s theme is to create you own personal truth, so even if anyone thinks someone else is “wrong”, please try to still keep a friendly tone when giving counter arguments and/or your own view on things.

I personally really enjoy reading the discussions since it gives a lot of new interesting views on things. I think it would be sad if it was stopped just because we don’t se eye-to-eye on everything.

Edit: Perhaps it could even be an idea to have a separate thread for discussion regarding Yasu/Lion him/herself? Just a suggestion.

Higurashi-Z · 2013-12-02, 14:04

I'm willing to continue the discussion too.

GoldenLand · 2013-12-02, 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

The biggest problem I have with Ryukishi's game 6 riddle, is that he pretty much ruled it out in the 4th game.

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!

A different person cannot claim his name!

Allow me to augment Lambda-sama's red with my Blue Truth.

If GM Battler were to argue that Lambda-Sama's red only pertained to the Fourth Game, then equally he couldn't have used Beato's Red Truth to prove to Dlanor that there was reason to believe that he could be The Man From 19 Years Ago.

Ep 6 also re-states that "All people can only use their own names!!" and "Battler and Kanon are different people.". The latter is a little interesting, because it implies that had the facts been otherwise, Battler and Kanon could have been the same person (ie: the same body...) and thus the same body could be capable of using both names.

Battler's argument in red to Dlanor in ep 5 seems fairly straightforward.

Quote:

(List of some ep 5 reds quoted from the wiki)
# Beato wanted me to solve it, so she made the riddles of this game solvable
# I can construct a theory with someone other than Natsuhi oba-san as the culprit.
# It's possible to show a different truth by using a different interpretation!!
# Knox's 1st. It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story! A person first introduced in the 5th game cannot be named as the CULPRIT...!!
# Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented!
# The red truth from the 4th game that I am not the son of my mother Asumu.
# The feeling that Dad was hiding something in both the first game and this game.
# In particular, in this game, it was made clear that there were some special circumstances having to do with my birth.

Battler doesn't appear to be actually claiming in red that he could be the man from 19 years ago. I don't think there's a contradiction there with ep 4 or any of the other reds saying a person can only claim their own name. Is there something I've missed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

Allow me to take a stab at this if you will. In the First two games, the connection between Maria and Beatrice is clearly made.

Are we to argue that Yasu and Maria established a connection, or at the very least
shared the same ideas?

While we know that Rosa spent a fair amount of time on Rokkenjima, Maria(obviously) wasn't alive at that time. Rosa also Was the one who found the Kuwadorian Beatrice

We also know that Rosa feels a tremendous amount of guilt for "killing" the Kuwadorian Beatrice When Will confronted her in the 7th game.

No arguments about those points. Continuing on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

I'd also argue that the biggest riddle was revealed not during the 6th game.

But towards the end of the 5th game.

Battler hinted towards the idea that Beatrice was aiming for "a miracle so unlikely it was like finding a pebble amongst the sand". What could a miracle so unlikely be?

What if the 'Miracle' is the revival part of the Ceremony? The idea that everyone'll come back to life, including perhaps even the Kuwadorian Beatrice?

Ep 6 seemed to say otherwise, but anyway, let's look at the 5th game. Looking at the relevant part, where Battler has his epiphany about Beato.

Spoiler for Quote from text cut for length:

That passage makes it sound as if the miracle that Beatrice wanted was for Battler to solve the difficult riddle she had set for him and reach the truth. He doesn't tell us what the answer is, so for us, any in-depth revelations about its content would have to come later or not at all. But, if the miracle she was after was Battler understanding the truth, that would suggest that the miracle she was looking for wasn't a miraculous resurrection of Kuwadorian Beato.

Kinzo would definitely have liked to revive the Kuwadorian Beatrice, but it's hard to think of anyone else who would get a-murdering to bring her back. I think one of the main problems with the idea of anybody committing the murders in order to bring about genuine magic is that they would need to be nuts, with the possible exception of Maria.

haguruma · 2013-12-02, 14:34

I have no problem continuing the conversation either.
It might be unusual for a series that is no longer in syndication or production (except the adaptation) to be that heavily discussed. Ripping the "official" and "non-official" discussion apart doesn't really help the discussion, it only puts a marker of non-seriousness on the non-official stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Translation is thing, that gains context thanks by the translator. I no japanese speaker, so I can't agree or desagree here.

Just so you can get an idea that I am not speaking about interpretation but very simple grammar, please take a look at this explanation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jTiKey

EP6 isn't even a mystery story, it's a prank the family did on Erika. There is no culprin we must find. We only have a crazy killer name Erika.

Do you know why people have a problem with this approach?
It's the basic approach that certain elements, you also mentioned magical scenes and meta-scenes, can simply be discarded from the plot. Yet you say that Van Dine is active for at least the mysteries, a set of rules that actively proclaims that there should not be any parts unnecessary to the mystery in a story.

Declaring elements of a story unimportant appears to be a fallacy to many because it begs the question of why they are there. Misdirection is something different than inserting superfluous elements. In a mystery story nothing can be ignored, everything plays into the grander scheme. If there is misdirection there needs to be a hint that something is misdirection, just saying "this is fantasy so I can ignore it", while arguing with other information gained in fantasy-scenes, like the Red Truth itself, just appears insufficient.
Why would Beatrice on the meta-plane saying that her Red is the truth be more true than other witches talking about the quality of her game?

Quote:

Remember game 5 and the "Kinzo doesn't exist" thus his corsple was on the islant? Why should Kanon's corsple be counted as "Kanon exists"?

The big problem with this would be that it would imply that the number of people on the island changes with the death of somebody. It would make it possible to say "There are no more than 5 people on the island" in Red at the end of even the first few games.

The problem with Erika and Kinzo is that they exist in the same half-state of existence on the island.

Additionally, I'd like you to take a look at these pages about EP5 from the EP8 manga:

Spoiler for EP8 chapter 20:

GoldenLand · 2013-12-02, 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by haguruma

The big problem with this would be that it would imply that the number of people on the island changes with the death of somebody. It would make it possible to say "There are no more than 5 people on the island" in Red at the end of even the first few games.

Very shortly after the scene where Kanon is confirmed to not exist in the guest room, Battler and Beatrice give the There are 17 people. red, so any possibility of people no longer counting as people after their deaths in ep 6 is straightforwardly ruled out even if not looking at the other games.

Cao Ni Ma · 2013-12-02, 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALPHA-Beatrice

The biggest problem I have with Ryukishi's game 6 riddle, is that he pretty much ruled it out in the 4th game.

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!

A different person cannot claim his name!

There is no rule against a person having more than one name/alias. These reds strictly forbid someone else from claiming them, but if the name/aliases already belonged to that person then its none issue.

Renall · 2013-12-02, 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Very shortly after the scene where Kanon is confirmed to not exist in the guest room, Battler and Beatrice give the There are 17 people. red, so any possibility of people no longer counting as people after their deaths in ep 6 is straightforwardly ruled out even if not looking at the other games.

The main problem with the person/people thing is that a specific distinction between person-as-character/entity and person-as-physical-form is only actively raised for clarification in ep6. Battler brings it up in ep3 and is shot down over it, so we don't see him explore the issue in greater depth than Erika does. As a result, it's kind of hard to know how Beatrice herself would view the whole distinction, although it is clear that Beatrice believed that character death was sufficiently analogous to physical death that the same terminology could be used for either (since she's the one who came up with "Kanon died in this room"), even though one is basically reversible while the other is not. You can squeeze out a distinction in ep2 with the whole "Kanon but not Kanon" explanation Gohda gives, but I don't see any way you can say Kanon didn't return in ep3 to the extent Kanon can exist in any sense.

The death cheat is especially problematic, but honestly it's about the only part of the entire Shkanon thing I can say is outright poorly-done. Everything else is at least foreshadowed in some fashion or possible (if not plausible without some fussing with the execution), but "death != death" opens some rather silly logic holes, like Kinzotrice or Nobody Actually Dies. Considering the biggest stumbling block for this is the admittedly-rewritten ep3 (as well as the "ninth victim" anomaly from ep4), it's possible it just wasn't thought out well and the original intent behind Land would not have produced quite the same problem.

I get the sense that maybe the closed room chain First Twilight would've been something Battler got to directly experience and it was recycled into Banquet and told to Battler second-hand. It would've been a far more effective puzzle had Battler witnessed the impossible chain with his own eyes (and if the minor problem of the second boiler room door had been addressed, although the manga fixed that). The way it's executed provides silly secondary solutions like "all of the adults were lying" and the tension and surprise of the chain would've been a lot better in the first person.

Leafsnail · 2013-12-02, 16:10

I think Nobody Actually Dies is meant to not work due to the fact that each character would need a different alternate personality to switch to, since only characters that are introduced (such as Beatrice) are allowed to do anything. Doesn't stop the Literally Anyone is Beatrice theories though.

AuraTwilight · 2013-12-02, 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I think Nobody Actually Dies is meant to not work due to the fact that each character would need a different alternate personality to switch to, since only characters that are introduced (such as Beatrice) are allowed to do anything. Doesn't stop the Literally Anyone is Beatrice theories though.

Everyone faked their death and adopted alternate identities while they partied in Hawaii with Kinzo's gold.

Renall · 2013-12-02, 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I think Nobody Actually Dies is meant to not work due to the fact that each character would need a different alternate personality to switch to, since only characters that are introduced (such as Beatrice) are allowed to do anything. Doesn't stop the Literally Anyone is Beatrice theories though.

It's meant to not work, but it kinda does. Assuming death is just "character death" and not "personality death," it's actually pretty easy. Remember, people don't actually need a personality; in fact, Shkanon works better if Shannon and Kanon are just particular styles of behavior rather than actual personalities.

In a murder mystery, you could say that if you "die" you're no longer playing the "role" of the person you were supposed to be, since that person has been "killed" and shouldn't be alive (even though they are). Beatrice is no longer playing the role of Shannon or Kanon in the official ep3 solution, for instance, but she's never actually playing the "role" of Beatrice in the same sense she does in ep2 or ep4 as an actual person who is supposed to be seen and talked about for Battler's benefit. She's acting as an offscreen killer. It doesn't matter if she's Beatrice or Yasu or Clair or Gaap or anything because nobody lives to describe the person to Battler. In that sense you could say she's "no longer Shannon/Kanon" but not say she's any one other character specifically (other than maybe "the culprit").

I don't see any reason why characters who "died" couldn't simply assume a new role as accomplices to the game. They don't need a new name or anything, just "Krauss is 'out,' so now he has to help set up the chapel mystery as one of the 'demons.'" It's not difficult to say the text supports this with Jessica suggesting that basically everyone has different roles they play in different situations and the fact that there are a bunch of demons running around in the fantasy scenes, including characters like Ronove and Virgilia who remain active after their "hosts" have "died."

Now that's obviously apparently not what was intended, but that's the problem with being vague as to what death represents. I cannot say, for example, that this isn't possible, merely that it's clearly not what Ryukishi wanted because he's said so in Our Confession and the manga where it's clear the boards do in fact have a killer. But if death isn't death, or rather "death" refers to the role of the characters in the mystery and not to their specific physical life-death status, I can easily say that the ending of ep2 is explained because Shannon could be Beatrice in the study because she didn't physically die, Kinzo was seen because he wasn't dead either (he's simply playing the role of "the already-deceased patriarch" and acting as a behind-the-scenes guy), and the part where the goats consume Battler is just the other "dead" people showing up after Battler's given in to believing the whole thing was real to mock him.

And then everybody explodes for some reason.

GoldenLand · 2013-12-02, 16:30

My favourite -trice theory is the Teatrice theory, where Beatrice is a teapot that poisons everyone. One day I will make it work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Everyone faked their death and adopted alternate identities while they partied in Hawaii with Kinzo's gold.

Eva stayed because she wanted to be the family head. She couldn't bring herself to tell Ange that everyone else had left her behind because they didn't love her.

Leafsnail · 2013-12-02, 19:57

I was about to suggest that truths about "murder" could confirm deaths, but apparently Kanon and Shannon were "murdered" in the episode 3 first twilight. Yeah the personality death thing is stupid. At the very least it seems like Genji should be able to shed his furniture persona and "die".

Let's see, the twilights in the original games which I would say unarguably have dead victims, even if you assume everyone has alternate personalities:
- Legend, twilight 9: "The bullet buried into Natsuhi's forehead was not fired from Natsuhi's gun!"/"The thing that shot Natsuhi wasn't a trap, it was a real shooting murder with a gun raised and trigger pulled!"
- Turn, twilight 2: "When Jessica's corpse was discovered"
- Banquet, twilight 2: "The cause of death was as Nanjo diagnosed"
- Banquet, twilight 9: "A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it! Right before his eyes!"

Also the blown up heads in episodes 1 and 4 probably couldn't be faked. So a "nobody died" theory can't work, barely.

2013-12-02, 13:08	Link #33501
Klashikari 阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180 Graphic Designer Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Belgium, Brussels Age: 37	I realize that the thread had often its share of overboard responses whatsoever, but I will ask you all to keep in mind that debate are only proper discussions so long everyone are on good terms with what's necessary for a debate and common sense. If anything is going wrong or haywire, please report it. But please do not escalate any discussion needlessly. Also, I'm wondering if the spoiler thread isn't outliving its actual life span considering the arguments being quite cyclic as of late. No actual decision has been made yet, but either a new, better directed thread should be necessary, or purely and simply put this one on a permanent retirement. __________________ [Sig art: Kagura Yuu, Nunukko, Maku Rako & Mishima Kurone] / [Twitter]

2013-12-02, 13:14	Link #33502
GreyZone "Senior" "Member" Join Date: Jan 2012	I understand what you mean and if it had been a few months earlier I would have probably agreed with you. However lately there was new content in the form of the EP8 manga coming, so I do think that this thread has a future for now. (This thread being closed for a moment did shock me a bit to be honest) __________________

2013-12-02, 13:15	Link #33504
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	I think things might be better-served by newer, more directed threads, but I'd be at a loss as to what specific things would be suitable. I do think it would be problematic to shut the thread down outright without a replacement, as this seems to be the primary source for discussion of the series at all at the moment. __________________ Redaction of the Golden Witch I submit that a murder was committed in 1996. This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986. This story is a redacted confession. Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists Battler Solves The Logic Error

2013-12-02, 13:15	Link #33503
jTiKey Member Join Date: Nov 2013	For the reason above, I won't have a conversations with any of you, except Pocuma or any new user I will meet here, who will want debates. If you don't wanna me here, and resolve all rosatrice debated, but reporting for no reason, I don't want to talk to you either. Have a nice day.

2013-12-02, 13:52	Link #33509
Pocuma Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2012	Perhaps a new thread for "alternative theories" or something could be useful? In order to keep things a bit more tidy. Then we could keep this thread for discussing new materials, spoilers and the “official theory” while still having another thread for alternative theories (both serious and not-so-serious). Discussion and debate are one of the core elements of Umineko, so it’s bound to be quite a lot of posts right? Although I agree that it’s starting to get quite a cynical tone, let’s keep in mind that we all have our own opinions and interpretations. Part of Umineko’s theme is to create you own personal truth, so even if anyone thinks someone else is “wrong”, please try to still keep a friendly tone when giving counter arguments and/or your own view on things. I personally really enjoy reading the discussions since it gives a lot of new interesting views on things. I think it would be sad if it was stopped just because we don’t se eye-to-eye on everything. Edit: Perhaps it could even be an idea to have a separate thread for discussion regarding Yasu/Lion him/herself? Just a suggestion.

2013-12-02, 14:04	Link #33510
Higurashi-Z Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2013	I'm willing to continue the discussion too.

2013-12-02, 16:10	Link #33516
Leafsnail Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	I think Nobody Actually Dies is meant to not work due to the fact that each character would need a different alternate personality to switch to, since only characters that are introduced (such as Beatrice) are allowed to do anything. Doesn't stop the Literally Anyone is Beatrice theories though.

2013-12-02, 19:57	Link #33520
Leafsnail Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	I was about to suggest that truths about "murder" could confirm deaths, but apparently Kanon and Shannon were "murdered" in the episode 3 first twilight. Yeah the personality death thing is stupid. At the very least it seems like Genji should be able to shed his furniture persona and "die". Let's see, the twilights in the original games which I would say unarguably have dead victims, even if you assume everyone has alternate personalities: - Legend, twilight 9: "The bullet buried into Natsuhi's forehead was not fired from Natsuhi's gun!"/"The thing that shot Natsuhi wasn't a trap, it was a real shooting murder with a gun raised and trigger pulled!" - Turn, twilight 2: "When Jessica's corpse was discovered" - Banquet, twilight 2: "The cause of death was as Nanjo diagnosed" - Banquet, twilight 9: "A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed with it! Right before his eyes!" Also the blown up heads in episodes 1 and 4 probably couldn't be faked. So a "nobody died" theory can't work, barely.