2010-09-14, 18:47 | Link #17661 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Hold up... there's a shkanon culprit theory that can get around the reds about them being dead almost immediately after piece Battler's hears about it? And it's not ridiculous? Care to clue me in?
__________________
Last edited by Judoh; 2010-09-14 at 19:00. |
2010-09-14, 19:02 | Link #17662 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Quote:
Previously, this was accepted as "they share names just because" but under the new Meta theory, we can assume that they share their names because they are the same person. Shannon is Beatrice. Once 'Shannon' is dead that means that only Beatrice remains. More realistically speaking, Kanon disguises himself as Shannon and shares the Shannon name as well, so 'Shannon is dead' and 'Kanon is dead' both apply to the same person while Shannontrice is still perfectly alive, without even getting into personality death territory. The reason why Kanon died is that while Shannon cares about him, 'Beatrice' does not, or something similar. Double Shkanon basically assumes that the reds about them being dead could refer to only one of them being dead(that one being Kanon, who is also Shannon sometimes) leaving Shannon/Beatrice alive and well to kill people. If we assume that Yasu/Shannon/Beatrice is not a servant, this gets around Dine, and based on the meta theory, they share a name, which justifies the Shannon/Kanon death reds. The one we refer to as Shannon is in fact 'Sayo.' She is not 'Shannon' because she is not a servant in the first place, she is Yasu. 'Shannon' is a name given to servants. Not being an official servant, Kanon also becomes Shannon in order to do everything for her. An extension of this theory is to assume that Kinzo ordered Kanon to do everything for Shannon(Beatrice) so that she wouldn't have to work as that would be unfit for his love. He planned on having her live as a servant(or rather, pretend to be a servant) until the day she solved the epitaph and 'revived.' It's worth noting that Genji is an accomplice under this scenario. This is the short version, so there are a few holes here and there. |
|
2010-09-14, 19:05 | Link #17663 |
Kupo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 32
|
I still think there's a lot of subtext for a jealous George culprit (that cut-short scene in the EP7 tea party was a particularly big red flag to me), but fictional-Shannon throws a big wrench in that. Wonder how it'd work in the "real world" .
__________________
|
2010-09-14, 19:09 | Link #17664 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead! Quote:
So it can't be named as Lion, Yasu, or Will for example.
__________________
|
||
2010-09-14, 19:14 | Link #17665 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Quote:
Quote:
Person we refer to as Kanon= Kanon, Shannon Person we refer to as Shannon=Beatrice Quote:
That Beatrice 'exists' while being one of the people in the island is an easy conclusion, so it gets around Knox & Dine. Moreover, the character wouldn't be being introduced. Just re-imagined. That's allowed under Dine and Knox. |
|||
2010-09-14, 19:28 | Link #17666 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
||
2010-09-14, 19:50 | Link #17667 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
|
Also, Double Shkanon combined with the meta theory explains a few things, like Shannon's BSOD(Will was really talking to Kanon that time/requesting to talk to Shannon and Kanon mean requesting the same person, but not in the way people are thinking) and it can be used to explain episode 6's final locked room, though regular Shkanon can also do that.
|
2010-09-15, 06:29 | Link #17669 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
|
The only problem with a 2 Shannons, 2 Kanons, Double Shkanon, call it what you will is that it breaks the premise of how the Shkanon theory was born. Well, it was born due to ShMion in Higurashi, but its very base is the fact Battler never saw Shannon and Kanon together. If they are indeed two people, then I'm sure Battler would have seen them together at least once.
Of course, we could say that, due to their duties, that never happened. And Battler never seeing them together is just a consequence of that. That, or as I said in a previous example, Yasu/Shannon/Beatrice wasn't around once the game began because (s)he had other things to do - and (s)he only shows up (as Suit Beatrice) whenever Kanon's body disappears. Personally, I think the latter is, quite possibly, the better explanation. However, I still cannot feel comfortable with it.
__________________
|
2010-09-15, 09:32 | Link #17671 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
There are various ways to reconcile it, even so, and Author Theory gives us even more (now, we can say things like "ep5's author was mistaken" if we believe in Single Shkanon, or "ep5's author was aware of Double Shkanon, so there wasn't a problem showing them once," or "ep5's author is Battler and he's lying about it"). Right so... Evidence Ange Wrote Banquet and Alliance
__________________
|
|
2010-09-15, 09:49 | Link #17672 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
|
Quote:
As for why would he lie, it's probably the same as when he saw Kinzo. He probably never really saw Kinzo, but something that symbolises and/or is related to him. Battler looking at Shannon and Kanon may be something like this. That, and if I remember correctly, he was in the room during the time that letter was dropped, and that whole thing was quite likely a fat lie.
__________________
|
|
2010-09-15, 09:57 | Link #17673 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Screw the detectives. That's exactly the sort of dependence that could hobble our reasoning. If Battler isn't the detective it just means he can mislead, not that he must do so. Either he or the author must have a reason to do it. If that reason is important, it might be a clue in and of itself. That's a lot more important than fixing reliable perspectives. Heck, Natsuhi is the most reliable perspective in End, and she's bonkers.
__________________
|
2010-09-15, 10:06 | Link #17674 |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
|
There are a lot of quite obvious arguments to think that Ange wrote Ep3 and Ep4, starting with the special treatment Kyrie gets (she gets the right to speak when she otherwise wouldn't, survives a long time, dies in a very noble manner, has a heartfelt phone conversation with Battler), and the fact that Eva is obviously painted the culprit in Ep3. Lots of magical elements are introduced which should only be possible to find in Maria's diary which Ange supposedly has.
Let us see what comes from this. If you study the scene of Ange meeting Hachijou with the assumption that Ange wrote Ep3-4, you can easily notice that Ange doubts Tooya's identity at every turn. Should a claim be possible that Hachijou Tooya wrote 3-6, the following two conditions must be satisfied:
Why is it significant? Counting from Kinzo down the Ushiromiya ranking, Kinzo-Krauss-Eva-Rudolf-Rosa-Jessica-George-Battler, Battler is the 8th Ushiromiya, and if you wanted to finger him among the island population with a number, 8 is the number you would use. Someone who picks 18^8 as their name wants a miracle of getting rouge eight times in a row, the miracle of the survival of the 8th person, and that is perfectly natural for Ange. That raises a question of who the lady known as Hachijou really is, and I'm getting an image of the surviving Battler who shows up for book signings in glasses and a mask, and then asks his assistant to claim his pseudonym to meet Ange. On the other hand... Twelve years ago, Hachijou has to have been a flat-chested loli with long black hair.
__________________
|
2010-09-15, 10:18 | Link #17675 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Note too that, if indeed "Itouikukuro Reigonamu" and "Hachijou Tohya" are not the same person, then someone is trying to claim to have written not just Banquet and Alliance, but also End and, at the time Ange appears at Featherine's, Dawn as well.
The problem here is that I'm not entirely sure the authors of Banquet/Alliance, End, and Dawn are actually the same person. Ange potentially wrote the first pair, I think it's probable that Tohya/Battler wrote Dawn (it is his game, after all), but then who wrote End?
__________________
|
2010-09-15, 12:01 | Link #17676 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
|
Quote:
Piece Battler saw a lot of things he shouldn't, like the Eiserne Jungfrau and Kinzo. Let us remember it was Lambda's game as well.
__________________
|
|
2010-09-15, 15:20 | Link #17677 |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
|
I talked to a friend today about Umineko today and he had some interesting ideas about the nature of witches and Battler's sin.
Each of the high witches represents a concept. Bernkastel is, of course, the concept of "miracles." She is a bitch because, metaphorically speaking, miracles don't always come to those that need them. She represents the nature of "miracles." Lambdadelta represents the concept of "certainty," obviously. That's probably no surprise. This is where the theory comes in. Beatrice herself represents another concept. Remember how, before the murders, Beatrice was always blamed for strange things that occured around the mansion. These were not malicious events; instead, they were things like "why is the window unlocked?" or "who did this?" Maria took a liking to Beatrice as a witch that could do anything. Beatrice is the concept of "luck" or "that which cannot be explained." However, six years ago, Battler probably tried to blame something bad on Beatrice. This created a chain reaction of events (I don't remember this part too well) and the "Beatrice" we all know was born. The Legend of Beatrice was nothing more than a prankster but never did anything wrong. Battler uses the name "Beatrice" to place blame on that which he could not explain. When people started dying, he said "some 19th person did this." This made matters worse for Beatrice (probably made Maria upset). He refuses to believe magic, but also refuses to acknowledge his family members as suspects. Instead, this "19th person X" did it all. Beatrice always taunts him with "Blame it all on me!" because that is what she (not the "Legend" Beatrice but the Witch Beatrice) represents. When Battler finally realizes that he and his family had to have done the murders, the concept of "Witch Beatrice" dies. He accepts responsibility for his family's corruption and therefore defeats the concept of the "19th person X." He tries to ressurect Beatrice in EP6 but cannot do it because he already knows the truth. (I'm sorry, this is really a botched version of an intriguing theory I heard today. I'll post a more comprehensive explanation later or have him do it himself.) |
2010-09-15, 16:29 | Link #17680 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
|
I thought it was a bit silly until I noticed the direct appeal to Battler to come home to Ange. It didn't really make that much sense in the context of the episode, but it would tell a theoretical reader-Battler that Ange still loves him and wants him to come home.
|
|
|