Hyouka - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Kaoru Chujo]

I said before that I thought these characters were extraordinary teenagers, or even adults in disguise. I've changed my mind. As both Guardian_Enzo and Hyper have pointed out, many bright teenagers can be pretty intense about what and who they are, and I think they can also be pretty smart about it, even without as much experience as adults have. Sometimes that experience just settles you into dull acceptance, rather than giving you more understanding.

As for staff, one of the interesting things about the staff is who the lead writer is: GATOU Shouji, who was the original creator of Full Metal Panic, and lead writer on The Second Raid, and also was lead writer on the two Tower of Druaga shows. Here he is adapting a novel very different from those shows. He worked with the same director as here, Takemoto Yasuhiro, on FMP.

Originally Posted by Hata

question: during Mayaka's fantasy sequence, she said she will read a book to Satoshi while force feed him chocolate, anyone got the name of the book?

All we see of the title is the word "chocolate."

[Aquifina]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

As for staff, one of the interesting things about the staff is who the lead writer is: GATOU Shouji, who was the original creator of Full Metal Panic, and lead writer on The Second Raid, and also was lead writer on the two Tower of Druaga shows. Here he is adapting a novel very different from those shows. He worked with the same director as here, Takemoto Yasuhiro, on FMP.

FMP and Tower of Druaga were anime I enjoyed, but nothing like this--far more conventional. I guess this is the advantage of having the novels as source material.

[ProfileOF]

9 out of 10
only for the tears of Eru...

[Bahamut]

...its possible for teens to display a high level of self-awareness and/or awareness of the world around...
...but it is also dangerous...the deeper you go...the harder it is to go back...until you forget how you got there and which way to go back...

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by orion

Not in that context. If he's not pulling a shift, there was no reason for her to want to know if he was there unless she's interested in him also.

I think she's just used to seeing them together and was expressing surprise they aren't actually joined at the hip.

[Hata]

Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo

All we see of the title is the word "chocolate."

I did some search around and I wasn't sure, since I never play the game, but could it be possible the whole sequence (dead and love on chocolate, book name chocolate) be a reference to the game Love and Dead: Bitten? where there is a game arc about making chocolate?

[MeoTwister5]

I have not been utterly blown away by a Kyoto Animation work since Clannad After Story (though admittedly they make what like 1-2 shows max a year) until these 3 episodes. As much as I like shows like this and Kokoro Connect trying to do away with high school moeblob conventions, Hyouka manages to do it with a style and delicacy that can only happen when you can apparently see the amount of effort and thought being put into the story and screenplay. Bravo.

The show has really gone a long way different from the impression it gave me when the first 2 episodes came out. As Enzo said, the unconventional approach the show has done made it's initial impressions hard to understand and digest. But as the series went on you know could finally understand that the mysteries, no matter mundane or boring they might sound, played second fiddle. Understanding the mystery wasn't as important as understanding the process in analyzing the mysteries, and the characters behind the solutions. The mysteries may be simple and not-so important, but you can't deny that what has transpired here in that school today was a result of the unseen friction behind the solving these mysteries.

More comments later.

[Hamster]

Haha, Chitanda's "GIVE BACK THE CHACLIT!" bit had me in stitches.

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by Skane

I'm more surprised that nobody is speculating about it after five pages.

To be fair they already answered the question: as soon as Chitanda opened her mouth we had cut to Oreki I WONDER WHY?!

[Asahi]

Originally Posted by Blaat

To be fair they already answered the question: as soon as Chitanda opened her mouth we had cut to Oreki I WONDER WHY?!

Hehe, love this lovely touch the anime has. Well, since the novel is told from Oreki's POV, of course that little choco shopping scene isn't there in the novel. But at least Chitanda explains why she doesnt give him the choco, and it alone is enough to show she cares a lot .

[rulfo]

Originally Posted by Hamster

Haha, Chitanda's "GIVE BACK THE CHACLIT!" bit had me in stitches.

Haha. I was just as shock as Houtarou and Satoshi there. I was SO fazed that I even forgot to pause.

[ahelo]

When Hyouka delivers, it really delivers. This episode shows just how much all of these characters changed towards the series. We see Chitanda acting through her emotions a bit more than usual, Houtarou trying to solve problems even to the point where he confronts Satoshi (which is definitely away from his usual comfort zone), and of course Satoshi, the star of this episode, becoming an even more multi-layered character than he already is. Hyouka is so intricate with details (very noticeable in this episode) and when this intricacy pays off, it's hard not to see Hyouka as both a work of perfection and a masterpiece.

[NoemiChan]

Eru biting on that chocolate only means she's really serious...

"Next time! It'll be so good.. that you'll eat me too!!!"

[rulfo]

Anyway what do you guys think? Did Satoshi turn Mayaka down or what?

The ending kinda implies it with Houtarou saying the chocolate is bitter. Though I'm guessing otherwise. He does like Mayaka a lot.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by rulfo

Anyway what do you guys think? Did Satoshi turn Mayaka down or what?

Satoshi will accept her...he can't deny or escape the pressure in his heart... he'll accept her love...

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by rulfo

Anyway what do you guys think? Did Satoshi turn Mayaka down or what?

The ending kinda implies it with Houtarou saying the chocolate is bitter. Though I'm guessing otherwise. He does like Mayaka a lot.

Either way, I suspect that the point is that he isn't running away from her anymore. Everything in the episode points to him being unable to accept it (he made his choice when he destroyed it), but we don't know for certain.

I wouldn't be surprised if they left that thread to dangle in perpetuity. We may not get a conclusive answer, especially if the two of them don't play a large role in the final episode.

[Blaat]

Originally Posted by rulfo

Anyway what do you guys think? Did Satoshi turn Mayaka down or what?

I'm hoping he repeated what he told Oreki to Mayaka. Still do you think we'll get an answer or at least hint on what happened between the two of them in the final episode. It would be rather disappointed if we didn't.

[Triple_R]

I'm certainly late to the party here, but I'll add what I can.

I like how Satoshi was given a more complex and nuanced reason than most anime characters are given for declining another character's romantic affection. For a long time I sincerely thought that Satoshi was gay, and that this was the reason why he didn't return Mayaka's feelings. However, the real reason given is no less compelling, and is actually more interesting in some ways.

At first, I also felt some anger at Satoshi for taking the actions that he did in this episode, but after thinking about it more I find myself simply feeling sorry for him. I get the psychological reasons for him being worried about entering into a serious relationship with Mayaka, but I also think that if Satoshi never ends up with Mayaka there's a decent chance he'll live to deeply regret it someday.

I personally think that everything (or just about everything) that Satoshi said to Oreki was sincere, and so I do think that Satoshi has strong feelings for Mayaka. That being the case, he may well find himself happy in a relationship with her, and he may well find himself lonely one day if he never ends up with her. For Satoshi's own sake as much as Mayaka's, I hope that Satoshi can overcome his current issues.


I honestly wasn't surprised by how upset Chitanda became (although I was impressed by how well KyoAni portrayed it). Chitanda has always struck me as a girl of considerable emotion and passion, fitting with her insatiable curiosity. Chitanda has also always struck me as an individual with a strong personal sense of justice. Here Chitanda was under the impression that a truly mean injustice had been visited upon one of her closest friends, so naturally she becomes quite angry and emotional about it. It's touching in a way - It shows how much Chitanda cares about Mayaka, imo.


As for Oreki, I like how actively protective he's become of the people close to him. It's hard to imagine the Oreki of Episode 1 threatening to slug Satoshi over something like this. Houtarou might still value energy conservation, but he's willing to take serious action for the sake of his friends.

[rulfo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

As for Oreki, I like how actively protective he's become of the people close to him. It's hard to imagine the Oreki of Episode 1 threatening to slug Satoshi over something like this. Houtarou might still value energy conservation, but he's willing to take serious action for the sake of his friends.

Yeah. Even though they're practically not that in good terms(love hate relationship?) especially Mayaka, he got a little pissed off when he saw Mayaka's pained expression. I'm glad he's sticking to that statement he made on ep 18(which sparked Eru's feelings ) where he said he didn't want to be inconsiderate about people's feelings.

Oreki's really becoming my most favorite MC(if not, one of) of all the KyoAni shows I've watched. I'm even liking him more than Kyon now. Though Kyon is still an entertainment powerhouse.

Now that I look back and people claiming this was just a Haruhi clone without the fun. Well they were right about the fun part probably during the earlier parts, but this has become more interesting in terms of characterization and that's what sets it apart from Haruhi.

Though take my words for a grain of salt if you will as I have not read the Haruhi novels compeletely. I'm simply comparing what has been adapted between the two and how they have been presented to us.

Well in any case with regards to Mayaka and Satoshi's relationship, I'd expect that he'd accept Mayaka but probably not that much yet. I'd say he's on his way there.

If not... we can expect some recurring stories with regards to this. It'd be interesting to see how they maintain the relationship between them and the relationship with them in the club.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by rulfo

Yeah. Even though they're practically not that in good terms(love hate relationship?) especially Mayaka, he got a little pissed off when he saw Mayaka's pained expression. I'm glad he's sticking to that statement he made on ep 18(which sparked Eru's feelings ) where he said he didn't want to be inconsiderate about people's feelings.

Oreki's really becoming my most favorite MC(if not, one of) of all the KyoAni shows I've watched. I'm even liking him more than Kyon now. Though Kyon is still an entertainment powerhouse.

Now that I look back and people claiming this was just a Haruhi clone without the fun. Well they were right about the fun part probably during the earlier parts, but this has become more interesting in terms of characterization and that's what sets it apart from Haruhi.

I think that Hyouka has better character dynamics than Haruhi does. What I mean by that is that Hyouka has more interesting developing relationships within its core cast than what Haruhi has within its core cast (at least going by just the anime portions of both properties). I think that the relationship between Oreki and Chitanda has been developed a bit better and more smoothly than the relationship between Kyon and Haruhi, and I also think that there's nothing in Haruhi quite like what we now have with Satoshi and Mayaka.

That being said, I'm a big sci-fi fan and Haruhi herself is one of my all-time favorite anime characters, so Haruhi remains my favorite KyoAni show of all-time (and one of my five favorite anime shows period).

But Hyouka has certainly been everything that people could have reasonably hoped it could be. Even some of the mysteries (primarily the arc-based ones) have genuinely been good. But most importantly the core cast has been extremely well-fleshed out and there's a lot of nice nuance and development within the relationships between them.