Proposal: The Real Reason for Spoiler problems, and how to address this.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Honestly, this widespread complete lack of medium preference is something about the modern anime fandom that I've always been somewhat mystified by. It makes me wonder sometimes if this fandom is even truly an anime fandom.

In my experience, movie aficionados actually talk about the movies. That's what comes first for them. Sure, a movie reviewer might spend some time comparing a movie to a book its based on, but the main focus will be on the movie itself. Yet, with many anime fans, it often seems like the anime actually comes last for them.

As an anime aficionado, I have to admit I find this kind of strange.

This isn't limited to anime, go to the imdb forums dedicated to movies/tv shows of popular franchises such as harry potter,lord of the rings,game of thrones, batman etc and you won't have movie aficionados there but fans of those franchises first and foremost.

I think that the only reason it wasn't there beforehand in anime is that the original medias were not available in english.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Solace

That's because you're a format aficionado. The people you're describing are fans of the entire franchise. They consume anything with the name(s) of the franchise on it. There are also people who only follow certain genres (like mecha), certain studios (like Kyoani), and certain people (like Okada or Urobuchi), among other niche things. Maybe one particular title really left an impression on them and that's the lens they judge everything else through. Happens quite a bit.

Fandom happens in all kinds of ways. When themes run parallel across media, comparisons and cross media discussion tends to flare up.

I'll just add it here, as a quick edit:

I find anime like Attack on Titan to be very cruel toward the fans it picks up. The manga is monthly, and the anime is faithful but extremely deliberate in what it is covering. The chances of a continuation of the anime are extremely slim unless the anime staff decide to create original episodes. While thankfully the show probably won't end like the Claymore anime did (opting for an original "ending" even though there was a perfectly good manga moment to stop at), it is striking how similar the end result will be. In the end, after most fans realize the chances of more Titan anime have dwindled to nothing and moved on, all that will be left is a forum of diehards who have nothing left but the manga to discuss.

And that's the unfortunate reality of a lot of anime.

The behavior you describe don't sound like fans to me. That sounds like a horde of locusts. I think if they rush to devour all the discussion material, they have nothing to blame but themselves and the tendency is to rush over to the next available series that has [desired] quality. It's no wonder why it gets rushed to spoiler material and a sign of self importance because they're supposedly the ones that will remain after the casuals leave.

Of course, this no doubt to me reminds of behavior in MMOs or other video games where people will play the fuck out of video games, rush to the end, and claim everyone else that is playing the same game is "doing it wrong" and now "there's nothing to do" as defined by their own criteria. It's that kind of elitism that leads to unreasonable expectations of anything new that comes out as well.

I mean I like a lot of stuff from Kyoani, Urobuchi, or Okada. If the anime isn't as good as expected, then will I place some elevated expectations that are unfair? Yes, I certainly make a lot of jokes, but it doesn't elevate my opinion far above others. I try to at least not blind myself to certain prospects. That's why I brought up Little Busters, in which I did try to judge it on its own, but dang I had to try hard to ignore some of the most annoying duo fandom elitist groups.

As a person who goes often "You have no idea what the fuck you're talking about, sit down and listen", I do understand the validity of using the source material in a discussion. The more you know, the more you are equipped to discuss a matter. But on the other hand, using it as a crutch as a blunt object is overdoing it.

But all of it doesn't matter. Back to the topic of spoilers, I think it's valuable to preserve the experience of those who haven't finish yet, if you're truly a fan. My friend is watching Evangelion now and he doesn't care about spoilers, but I don't spoil him, and recommend he doesn't spoil himself. This is Evangelion we're talking about here, I mean it's impossible not to get spoiled about it. Still though, as a fan of the series, I still would want people to get the most out of their viewing experience. It's their choice on whether to get spoilered or not, and as a friend and someone that has it as a favorite series, I don't want to poison the well so they can form their own opinion. After all, isn't that what someone that cares about people and their pet series wants? Appreciation of the material. I place character favoritism above all else though-- I would like other people to share that appreciation and honestly any good fan to me would think the same-- allow others to share in those key moments, and not this sort of fanaticism towards some kind of monument or structure that alienates casuals.

Okay, I did spoil one thing slightly-- I spoiled a bit the remake movies and told him they were terrible. But that's also for his own good.

tl;dr Fans need to stop being so yandere about their prized objects of fandom.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Solace

I can understand that. So let's say you had the power to address this from an admin/mod perspective. What would you do?

I'd do what is currently being done. If staff weren't familiar with the source material and thus were unable to monitor for spoilers then I might try to find a trustworthy member to act as a moderator specifically for that subforum, if such a thing is possible.

I'm not against the use of spoiler tags. That's what the feature is there for, after all. If a curious reader clicks on the spoiler tag and spoils something for themselves, that's too bad. We have to take responsibility for ourselves. The issue is when people either outright state a spoiler or drop hints that are so obvious that they might as well have come right out and said it, without using a spoiler tag. That's where moderators come into play - to forcefully remove the spoilers and inform those users that they just committed an act of disrespect to the community.

It's anecdotal, but my ideas come from my own experiences. I'm perfectly comfortable viewing the Danganronpa episode discussion threads because I have seen that Klashikari is very active in those threads, and keeps them spoiler-free. Klashikari also sets the tone, discussing the source material alongside the anime material while using spoiler tags appropriately. By comparison, I am very skittish about the Attack on Titan episode discussion threads. I've seen monir active there, but not to the same extent as Klashikari is with Danganronpa. There also seem to be a lot of people with a poor sense of self-control viewing Attack on Titan compared with Danganronpa.

Maybe slightly off-topic, but I disagree with Marcus H.'s assessment that the "card catalog" layout of series forums was due to anime-only viewers who are "eager to avoid spoilers." Staff can correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember right it was started in a response to some out-of-hand activity that occurred in the Shuffle! series forum.

[Triple_R]

I completely agree with Ledgem (except I'm not sure on the Attack on Titan subforum as I've had that stalled for awhile now).

Klashikari is doing a simply fantastic job with Dangaronpa. Klash's handling of comparisons is also very good - It's all in one massive spoiler space, and people can choose to open it up or not.

Having the equivalent of "Klash for Dangaronpa" for each ongoing series subforum would be a dream scenario, likely nipping most spoiler problems in the bud.

[relentlessflame]

I think that's where it's up to the membership to step up to the plate and help out by reporting posts. I don't think we can find someone who is both that intimately familiar with the source material and that aligned with the spoiler policy for every franchise that gets a sub-forum, and has the necessary time and dedication to police one section that closely all the time. (I did that with SAO, though not knowing the source as much, and it was absolutely exhausting.) But, even if all the people expressing concern in this thread would do their part and report posts that cross the line, collectively the problem could be at least greatly reduced and people would start getting the message.


The issue is basically this:
a) people who know the source material often don't care about spoilers or would welcome it, so aren't inclined to report anything except the most blatant/obvious of examples ("unforgivable spoilers")

b) people who don't know the source material often can't tell what is really a hint/spoiler unless it's blatantly obvious or another source reader points it out, so they too won't do anything but report the most blatant/obvious examples

Neither of these deal with the sorts of problems that were being discussed in this thread, where subtle source hints are influencing speculation, or things from other anime adaptations are being used as comparison points, even though it technically hasn't happen in the given show yet. These are very subtle issues that require a pretty big level of empathy to figure out what you wouldn't want to know if you were a first-time viewer, and to care enough to enforce this strictly even when other source readers want to bite off your head for not letting them say what they want wherever they think they should be allowed to say it.

Basically you'd need source readers who *also* share a commitment to preserving the first-viewing experience for the anime-only audience... and they're few and far between. But seeing them report posts is one of the way we find them.

[Solace]

I believe the phrase is "be the change you wish to see". I'm okay with people choosing not to participate, that's their choice. But if people feel strongly about changing "the culture", they have to step up. Be a role model and set an example. Help us do our job better by reporting problems. Try to guide discussion by shifting it away from possible spoilers. That kind of thing.

I say this, but I caution against the temptation to "be a mod". That doesn't help much - you'll get backlash from the community and it makes our job harder.

At least for now, it's a step, if people are willing to do it.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

These are very subtle issues that require a pretty big level of empathy

This is a big one. Nuance matters. Otherwise it's easy to fall into a mindset of "All I have is a hammer and every problem looks like a nail".

[Auxilism]

It looks like the problem has shifted to the community not doing anything so I'll comment on that. I have never used the report function before so if I say something wrong, I apologise.

The first line of thought I have is how much would it take to 'convince' the moderator that it is a spoiler and should be censored. For example, character X jumps off a building at the end of episode 10. Member A speculates why character X did that. Member B spoils it by revealing what happens in the next manga chapter. Member C sees this and wants to report it. Would he have to take screenshots to show that episode 10's ending did not show that and bring out the airing schedule to prove that episode 10 is the latest one adapted so member B's statement is a spoiler?

Secondly, how is the editing handled and what are the possible repercussions? Usually I see reasons like, 'Spoilers' or something along those lines when edited by a moderator. Following the example above, member C may see that he succeeded but no credit was given to him/her. If there are few people who would put in so much time and effort to decide what's a spoiler and provide evidence, there will be even fewer who would want to be silent heros (even more so when they only see the moderator's name, making it look it all credit was taken by the moderator).

However, placing the reporter's name has several consequences as well. Going by what relentlessflame said, the members who spoil will rage at being censored. If it were me, I wouldn't bother about them since they broke the rules in the first place (even if it were unintentional, they should feel apologetic not angery) but I cannot and will not speak for all.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by darkhalo191

The first line of thought I have is how much would it take to 'convince' the moderator that it is a spoiler and should be censored. For example, character X jumps off a building at the end of episode 10. Member A speculates why character X did that. Member B spoils it by revealing what happens in the next manga chapter. Member C sees this and wants to report it. Would he have to take screenshots to show that episode 10's ending did not show that and bring out the airing schedule to prove that episode 10 is the latest one adapted so member B's statement is a spoiler?

You don't have to do anything so difficult. There enough people on the staff who watch enough anime and can follow the conversation. Just report the post, and the staff will figure it out.

If it turns out that we make a mistake, and the "accused" provides the necessary evidence, any infractions/bans can be reversed. Of course we don't act blindly either. (Sometimes people report things that are actually allowed, so we don't action every report.)

Originally Posted by darkhalo191

Secondly, how is the editing handled and what are the possible repercussions? Usually I see reasons like, 'Spoilers' or something along those lines when edited by a moderator. Following the example above, member C may see that he succeeded but no credit was given to him/her. If there are few people who would put in so much time and effort to decide what's a spoiler and provide evidence, there will be even fewer who would want to be silent heros (even more so when they only see the moderator's name, making it look it all credit was taken by the moderator).

However, placing the reporter's name has several consequences as well. Going by what relentlessflame said, the members who spoil will rage at being censored. If it were me, I wouldn't bother about them since they broke the rules in the first place (even if it were unintentional, they should feel apologetic not angery) but I cannot and will not speak for all.

Uh, I don't think we want people to report spoilers for the glory of being a "spoiler-killing hero" or something, and that certainly isn't why the staff do the work either. Trust me, there's nothing glorious about constantly being spoiled about every show and having to tell people to follow the rules. And the amount of flak you get in response can sometimes be just as much of a pain to deal with. But I would hope that people would report spoilers for the same reason that the staff act on them: to try to make this forum as enjoyable as possible for the maximum amount of people, including those who are just having their first-time exposure to the franchise. I suppose you may get more response if this was like "bounty hunting" and there were some sort of prize, but this too would create a negative attitude. In the end, the staff will bear the weight of the responsibility for any consequences we issue, and that protects the reporter from possible bitterness/retaliation. (I wish it weren't like that, but some people do indeed get angry.)


I wasn't trying to shift the problem entirely on the community, but I think that's the easiest thing people can do to help. I don't see an easy solution on the policy level, and I don't think it's realistic to expect a source-reading mod for every thread/subforum to keep constant watch like a hawk. So leveraging the "wisdom of the crowd" seems like the best way.

[Auxilism]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

You don't have to do anything so difficult. There enough people on the staff who watch enough anime and can follow the conversation. Just report the post, and the staff will figure it out.

If it turns out that we make a mistake, and the "accused" provides the necessary evidence, any infractions/bans can be reversed. Of course we don't act blindly either. (Sometimes people report things that are actually allowed, so we don't action every report.)

I see, thank you for the clarification.

Uh, I don't think we want people to report spoilers for the glory of being a "spoiler-killing hero" or something, and that certainly isn't why the staff do the work either. Trust me, there's nothing glorious about constantly being spoiled about every show and having to tell people to follow the rules.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

It's anecdotal, but my ideas come from my own experiences. I'm perfectly comfortable viewing the Danganronpa episode discussion threads because I have seen that Klashikari is very active in those threads, and keeps them spoiler-free. Klashikari also sets the tone, discussing the source material alongside the anime material while using spoiler tags appropriately. By comparison, I am very skittish about the Attack on Titan episode discussion threads. I've seen monir active there, but not to the same extent as Klashikari is with Danganronpa. There also seem to be a lot of people with a poor sense of self-control viewing Attack on Titan compared with Danganronpa

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Klashikari is doing a simply fantastic job with Dangaronpa. Klash's handling of comparisons is also very good - It's all in one massive spoiler space, and people can choose to open it up or not.

Having the equivalent of "Klash for Dangaronpa" for each ongoing series subforum would be a dream scenario, likely nipping most spoiler problems in the bud.

People do thank those who prevent spoilers though I admit that this is a rare occurrence. However, it can be gratifying to some people to be recognised, especially those who are new to the forum (as a whole) and haven't become jaded by all of this.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

And the amount of flak you get in response can sometimes be just as much of a pain to deal with.
...
In the end, the staff will bear the weight of the responsibility for any consequences we issue, and that protects the reporter from possible bitterness/retaliation. (I wish it weren't like that, but some people do indeed get angry.)

I realise this and so I won't argue about the negatives. I guess most reporters would be older members so it would negate my point above; maybe there can be a warning in the report function that some members will hate the reporter and then the reporter can select if he/she wants to be included in the reason for editing (unselected by default).

I wasn't trying to shift the problem entirely on the community, but I think that's the easiest thing people can do to help. I don't see an easy solution on the policy level, and I don't think it's realistic to expect a source-reading mod for every thread/subforum to keep constant watch like a hawk. So leveraging the "wisdom of the crowd" seems like the best way.

I apologise if I sounded like you blame the whole community; I was not aiming for that. I agree that having the masses help would solve a lot of problems but I'm debating if it's even worth going through the consequences (good or bad) that come with extending help and now I'm very close to saying that it is.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by darkhalo191

I realise this and so I won't argue about the negatives. I guess most reporters would be older members so it would negate my point above; maybe there can be a warning in the report function that some members will hate the reporter and then the reporter can select if he/she wants to be included in the reason for editing (unselected by default).

This isn't necessary. Since you've never reported a post before, I'll tell you about the process.

After you click the "report post" button, you're taken to a website with a text box. You are asked to write what the problem with the post is. Some examples, like "spam," are given. You can write what ever you want, but with regard to spoilers, you can write that it's a spoiler. If you're not sure, you can state that, too ("I think this might be a spoiler" or some such thing). The moderators are then notified of the report. They can see the post, your reason for reporting it, and that you are the reporter. That information is only available to the moderators. It is up to the moderators what should be done with the post, if anything. Whether they act on it or not, nobody aside from the moderators would know that you reported the post.

In other words, it's a completely anonymous act.

If we were to start awarding recognition then we would get into situations where people grew upset with each other, or where people would become afraid of reporting posts for fear of possible backlash. We don't want that.

Getting members into reporting problems isn't an unusual thing. We do it offline, too; haven't you ever heard one of those "if you see something, say something" campaigns that police forces put out? Emergency responders can't be everywhere at once, nor can they predict disasters. They exist for the good of the community, and it is up to the community to help focus them. The same applies here.

[Auxilism]

Thank you for the information.

I know about the backlash, that's why it is optional. Maybe the proposal given made it look stupid; I'll rephrase. If a member specifically types in the report box that he/she wants to be given credit, would the moderators do so? If yes, I would be won over completely.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Getting members into reporting problems isn't an unusual thing. We do it offline, too; haven't you ever heard one of those "if you see something, say something" campaigns that police forces put out? Emergency responders can't be everywhere at once, nor can they predict disasters. They exist for the good of the community, and it is up to the community to help focus them. The same applies here.

The idealist in me believes that more people would be willing to save a life compared to help someone pick up a dropped item. The spoiler issue is like helping someone pick up a dropped item to me.
I have seen a news report where they show some citizens wearing a vest and patroling but anyone outside would recognise them already. If you press the emergency stop on a train to report a bomb, everyone will look at the cause (you) first since their motion suddenly changes for an unknown reason.

Most people that report probably won't care or don't want the attention but this is a community; all kinds of personalities exist. That is why I am asking if an option exists to suit them and by no means am I suggesting that all members are forced to deal with it.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by darkhalo191

If a member specifically types in the report box that he/she wants to be given credit, would the moderators do so? If yes, I would be won over completely.

Why? As relentlessflame pointed out, there is no glory in reporting spoilers, and there is no value in generating needless flame wars between members over spoiler reports. It's all anonymous for very good reasons.

[Auxilism]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Why? As relentlessflame pointed out, there is no glory in reporting spoilers, and there is no value in generating needless flame wars between members over spoiler reports.

I'll repost some quotes, shortening them in hopes of showing their impact more explicitly.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

I'm perfectly comfortable viewing the Danganronpa episode discussion threads because I have seen that Klashikari is very active in those threads, and keeps them spoiler-free.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Klashikari is doing a simply fantastic job with Dangaronpa.

On the off-chance that someone is grateful for all the spoiler removal and the reporter has that type of personality, not thanking the correct person could cause him/her to stop reporting due to the disappointment caused by that specific personality. The crux of the matter is the entire forum community (as of now) so you can't say that nobody with that kind of nature will ever appear. I'm not saying that I have generated all kinds of personalities in my head, others may have thought up of more extreme ones that will cause scratch your head. However, if they help by reporting spoilers and don't actively find arguments, placating them can help with the problem of spoilers.

Is the main issue with this that the behaviour is self-destructive? I can't fathom people starting fights with others for no reason yet I've seen it happen anyway. I'm not denying your experience as a senior but people will do things that make little or no sense. Furthermore, them flaming each other breaches forum rule 1.2 so you can report both of them, removing the spoiler and the self-destructor.

It's all anonymous for very good reasons.

I don't mean that all members have to make a conscious effort to be anonymous. I'm asking if the member purposely types, "I want to be given credit for this", what would be the moderators' reaction? Therefore, reporting normally would default to being anonymous; usual reporters will not be affected in any way.

[SeijiSensei]

Klashikari is a moderator. Ledgem was thanking him for doing a good job of moderating that thread, not for reporting spoilers.

[Auxilism]

The process envisioned in my head as of now is:
1. Member detects a spoiler (which is not allowed).
2. Member reports said spoiler.
3. Moderators take action (removing, warning, banning, etc).

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Klashikari is a moderator. Ledgem was thanking him for doing a good job of moderating that thread, not for reporting spoilers.

Technically, you are correct since Klashikari (being a moderator) can skip step 2 so there is no report.

Originally Posted by Ledgem

Klashikari is very active in those threads, and keeps them spoiler-free.

The way I've interpreted this is Klashikari actively scans through the posts that members make and quickly takes action. Therefore, Ledgem was thanking Klashikari for doing both roles (detector and remover).

Let's say that Klashikari only removed the spoilers since your interpretation is valid as well. Then there must be someone who reported the post in the first place, fulfilling the role of detector. Since the reported posts will only have "Last edited by Klashikari (something something)", people will only know for sure that Klashikari had a part in it. The person who detected and reported it remain unknown. That would largely be fine but I am considering those who would feel negatively about that, thus asking if moderators will credit them if asked directly by the reporter.

[Solace]

The person who detected and reported it remain unknown. That would largely be fine but I am considering those who would feel negatively about that, thus asking if moderators will credit them if asked directly by the reporter.

Credit will not be given to people who report posts which are acted upon by moderators. Even if they ask really nicely and give monir a lapdance.

[Auxilism]

Understood; I'll pass the message (word for word) on if anyone asks for my opinion on the matter.