[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[fourtwenty]

Just finished reading it.
Amazing game, can't wait for the next installment.

Spoiler for Ange:

What do you think see saw in the futon shop? It's been bugging me like mad.

So, EP5 will be an answer arc, it's supposed to be released at the summer Comiket?
And would it be wise to reread the episode it's the answer to before reading 5 to have a grasp on things, or does Ryuukishi do a refresher when he does answer arcs? Eh, I'll probably read it again anyway out of boredom. Just wish I knew which episode it's going to be about.

[izmosmolnar]

Most likely something which eventually made it possible for her to summon Sakutarou despite all the odds. Many are theorizing it's something related to him, ergo a plushy.
It's possible it wasn't handmade by Rosa after all, and she just lazily bought it somewhere, and the captain happened to have the same one, or someone else at Rosa's company also made one, or maybe they even mass produced it between 1986 and '98.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Christen

Does anyone have a link and translation to the Enoura and La Plata theories? Those would be good material.

They are both theories regarding the solution of the epitaph, that were popularized in the japanese umineko wiki:

http://umineco.info/?真偽不明の解答考察

you can use found "plata" and found "enoura" to get to the right spots.

"Plata" referes to "rio de la plata" a south american river, whom some thinks being the "sweetfish river" of the epitaph. Enoura is a fishing port, and it follows the idea that Odawara is the "hometown" Kinzo's is referring to.

You can see a map here:
http://www.emikanya.com/en/images/menu_map.jpg

I don't quite get it, but it looks like they changed the kanji in a way that you could put a "の" symbol in the middle like in the odd part that Rosa noticed.
江之浦→　ENOURA →絵の裏
I don't quite get it how this should help.

Anyway since Ryukishi mentioned them, they are probably completely off mark.

About the blog

If the Siestas were created by MARIA, the Stakes likely were as well. Beato cannot create beings, based on our current knowledge, so it is likely that she merely appropriated them for her usage during episodes two and three.

It is not 100% true. Beato cannot create beings from 0, only Maria can. However Beato can create beings from anything that isn't 0. In the case of Ronove, Gaap and the stakes, they are preexistent magic entities (being already part of some demonology theory), however Sakutarou is a complete new being.

Speaking of furniture, Gaap likely has a real-world equivalent like Ronove does. Jessica, maybe, based on her fashion sense? (笑)

I always thought that Gaap's vessel is Shannon.

[MagiToxin]

Just finished Episode 4, wow what a mindbender , although it was entertaining, it was of less 'quality' than the previous episodes. This is definitely my least favorite episode and the only I actually skimmed through some parts to just get the hell out of Ange+Stakes nonsense.

Spoiler for Ange+Stakes:

Okay, I've been sickened to the core with the Ange and the Stakes interactions, particularly because it was loaded with hypocrisy. From an Anti-Mystery perspective, I really cannot see why she would associate with them and consider them friends. These guys killed Battler over and over and over. And if she puts forth the theory 'Oh, they were just acting under Beatrice's orders', did we forget how much they were getting off hunting the family like animals and torturing Battler for eternity? Both in an Anti-Fantasy and Anti-Mystery POV, you would not go and say "Hey, guess what? I'm so lonely I'm gonna conjure up the guys who brutally slaughtered my family like pigs to be my bestest friends! Yay!"

Spoiler for Blue truth:

Most of Battler's Blue truth attacks mirrored my own, especially the one with Hideyoshi and Eva from Ep 1. But then Lambadelta blew most of it all. Still, she did not say ALL of Battler's truth was junk so I believe we can still use some of his theories as foothold for another counterattack. Oh well, time to go and replay Ep 1 from the beginning.

[Jan-Poo]

OMG I went back to the first pages to see the first comments to episode4 and I found out an incredible amount of false theories an false rumors! ha ha ha this made my day.

To sum it up at that time some people believed that:

- The blue text is for lies
- Jessica got killed by an umbrella
- Bern killed Ange and she's evil (well close maybe, but definitely not quite right)
- Battler can use magic in this episode
- Maria is the new Ronove's master
- Kasumi is the wife of a Kumasawa's (retard) son (LOL!)
- In the end Battler and Beatrice both die so ep5 will probably have Ange and Maria as protagonists
- Kanon is killed by Gaap
- Battler is killed in first twilight (how the hell someone could even think it?)

notable quote:

Ronove basically say "Fuck this shit" and with his powers he opens a portal to Jessica's heart and is about to pour hot tea on when Krass comes up from behind him and Germain Suplexes him through a wall. Ronove then just proceeds to laugh saying how Battler's entire family is interesting and then kills Krass by ripping open a hole in his windpipe without touching him

Lol... but at least Sterling was there pointing out how it was completely false.
Apparently most of this stuff came from 4chan. Please when ep5 will be out someone must record everything they will say, because this is pretty epic shit.

[MeoTwister5]

I've suddenly realized that Okonogi's words about how the truth is interpreted whether you see it with love or hate is probably the most important piece of advice in solving the mystery of Rokkenjima, so important that meta Battler pretty much needs this advice too.

And my gut tells me the Sumadera family must have something to do with all the version of the Rokkenjima murders in all the games. I can't exactly put my finger on it but I think I can expound on that when I finish this last episode.

[Proto]

From an Anti-Mystery perspective, I really cannot see why she would associate with them and consider them friends.

If you see it from the POV that they are just dellusions, and as such they just behave as she'd expect them to behave (not to mention that she doesn't know what happened from the anti-mistery perspective during those days) it becomes all the sadder.

Then again, Maria's line 'Don't pity my happiness' really stroke a chord within me, so I guess it isn't fair to say it is sad or anything of the sort.

[MeoTwister5]

They most likely refuse pity because some people in the midst of delusional happiness are so thoroughly convinced of the truth of their world that they are content with it.

Or at the very least, from what I get off of Maria, that she is fine with her delusions regardless of whether she accepts them as such because she is happy in it, and it doesn't matter to Maria whether it's truth or not. As long as it gives her the joy she can't find elsewhere she's fine with it. In fact, I still have a sneakign suspicion that a lot of the contents of her own diary might be delusions as well, if her talks with Sakutaro are anyh indication anyway.

Ange feels like a mixed case. She clearly cannot live without knowing the truth of Rokkenjima 12 years and would side with Bern to find it out, yet at the same time finds some contentment having a "delusional" conversation with Maria and Sakutaro. Maria in comparison seems aware of the fine line between reality and fantasy, Ange I'm not too sure, which is probably why she associates with the Stakes freely.

[MagiToxin]

If you see it from the POV that they are just dellusions, and as such they just behave as she'd expect them to behave (not to mention that she doesn't know what happened from the anti-mistery perspective during those days) it becomes all the sadder.

The thing is neither POV make sense and you have proven my point by mentioning Maria.

Maria created Sakutaro out of the stuffed toy that her mother gave her. It made SENSE, whether it was a delusion (anti-fantasy) or she actually had magical power (anti-mystery) it still MADE sense because at the core, the undeniable truth, is that this thing represented some sort of happiness. It is a pure vessel that can be associated with.

Maria made her furniture out of things that are innocent and playful, she would not look up Jack the Ripper or Attila the Hun or even Hitler to conjure up a friend.

This is the basis of my argument of the stakes, at the core they are evil...and even if they weren't, it is undeniable that they hurt her family. If Ange was delusional then why use the very instruments of your family's demise as a means of happiness? If Ange is not delusional and the stakes do exist in reality, there's even less reason to like them.

[Proto]

it is undeniable that they hurt her family

Not if you consider that Ange's (not ANGE's) only source of knowledge for the stakes is Maria's diary, and probably the witch epitaph, from which the worst she'd be able to conjecture is that they were tools for the sacrifice. Don't suppose she knows all we know about them.

[MeoTwister5]

I may have realized something HUGE regarding Kinzo, but of course it may only hold true if Battler's theory could hold water in all games.

Spoiler for Kinzo's true status during and prior to the games.:

Was Battler's theoretical assertion that Kinzo may very well have been dead prior to October 4 applicable to all the previous games, to say that he was in fact already dead before the family meeting even started?

I have a strange belief that Kinzo may in fact very well be dead even before the games started. In fact, that he may have never been alive during ANY of the conferences to begin with. This is a massive mindfuck.

Point I: The body.

The only times Kinzo is believed to be dead by the characters is when they find a burnt body with six toes in the boiler room. Fact is, from a medical perspective, it is fairly impossible to determine TOD on a completely burned body. While I cannot surmise on the status of the actual corpse, if he was in the incinerator then I can assume with fair certainty that the only thing left of him was bone, and you practically cannot predict TOD from bone. You'll need some muscle and organs for that, and if they're burned completely you have nothing to work with. It becomes fairly plausible that if this was really his body then he was burned before the conference even began, perhaps by Krauss himself. As for his stench, it could be that his body was packaged so much to prevent the odor from seeping through, and was intentionally let out so that the survivors would find it and assume he was recently killed.

Point II: Beatrice and Kinzo speaking.

Again it all falls down to the habit of Beatrice to show some illusionary scenes to Battler in order to trick him into seeing things her way. She's done it before and it's fairly possible that any scene of Kinzo and Beatrice being shown speaking were merely illusions to convince Battler of Kinzo's status, when in fact he may have already been dead.

Point III: Actual people meeting Kinzo.

This can be explained easily and difficultly depending on who. We can generalize the servants aside from Gohda and Kumasawa together: that it is fairly possible that they are not in fact speaking with Kinzo but possibly a delusional manifestation of his will and intent. Consider the two possibilities that Kinzo may really have left a set of instructions and that the servants would willingly follow these. Consider also that the servants aside from the two mentioned above trust and idolize Kinzo to a god-like status that they equate his words to his own physical self as well. It is probable that they're scenes of meeting him are delusions of manifestation of Kinzo, when in fact going to his room was only to get his instructions.

The real problem for this theory arises is when Kinzo supposedly meets with anyone else. However, the only person to meet Kinzo outside the servants was Natsuhi in episode 1. Natsuhi also seemingly respects Kinzo to such a degree that she defends his honor from the siblinsg every time she gets. It is also fairly plausible that she suffers from delusions like the servants. The scenes of Krauss knocking on the door to Kinzo's study, not getting a response and then giving up comes off as farce to make it seem like he even bothered to try.

Point IV: The Ring

With this, it becomes much more plausible that the ring was taken when he died prior to the conference by whoever was making the letters signed to Beatrice, rather than our previous assumptions that Beatrice made the letters when Kinzo threw it out the window. Okay perhaps he did throw it out maybe, but this would have happened before the conference, right before he died, which gives a lot of time to the letter writer to get the ring and make letters with it.

Also, think about the fact that they had to identify the incinerated body with his polydactyl condition, which suggests the ring was never in his possession to begin with. The ring would likely have melted in the incinerator, so it would seem it was taken before he was burned. Again, assuming that's him to begin with.

Point V: The Monologues

Just because we see Kinzo rant on about the epitaph and Beatrice doesn't mean it was happening at the same time. It is possible those rants were either Beatrice's illusions to showcase the madness of Kinzo, or even perhaps scenes of him ranting before the conference began and before he died.

So... am I simply insane or is there any plausibility to my theory? The problem is that I have yet to see Beatrice say anything about the matter in red, so it's possible my idea will eventually get shot down later in the game, so let me play a little more ways in. :lol:

[izmosmolnar]

Don't worry she will reply about that in red. I won't tell you what, since it's going to be in the ep4 teaparty.

@ Jan-Poo, yeah I went back yesterday and I had my share of laugh about all those nonsense too. Killing with Umbrella? wth? Some anons definitely had a really vivid fantasy to come up with all that rubbish.

[Marion]

Actually the 'Battler killed in the 1st twilight' was originally 'Everyone but Battler dies in the 1st twilight'. I think what they meant was '1st DAY' XD;

[MagiToxin]

Not if you consider that Ange's (not ANGE's) only source of knowledge for the stakes is Maria's diary, and probably the witch epitaph, from which the worst she'd be able to conjecture is that they were tools for the sacrifice. Don't suppose she knows all we know about them.

I'm pretty sure the Grimoire itself mentions how the stakes attacked her family. Ange also knowingly acknowledged that, check back during the scene where she was late for curfew in her academy.

As for

So... am I simply insane or is there any plausibility to my theory? The problem is that I have yet to see Beatrice say anything about the matter in red, so it's possible my idea will eventually get shot down later in the game, so let me play a little more ways in. :lol:

Spoiler for Kinzo's real status:

Play a bit more of EP4, your theory WILL come up sooner or later (I won't specify where) but I assure you, you will have more information regarding what you theorize.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by MagiToxin

This is the basis of my argument of the stakes, at the core they are evil...and even if they weren't, it is undeniable that they hurt her family. If Ange was delusional then why use the very instruments of your family's demise as a means of happiness? If Ange is not delusional and the stakes do exist in reality, there's even less reason to like them.

I don't remember perfectly but I seem to remember Ange was thinking about this contradiction of being friendly with the stakes, however she came to the conclusions that furniture are tools, they are neither evil nor good, it's the one that commands them to be blamed. That is true for any POV. Of course you may argue that from the anti-mistery perspective, while the stakes didn't kill by their will, they still enjoyed it. However I think that even the cruelty and ill intent of a furniture mirrors the one of the user. That is why the stakes are not so evil when summoned by Ange.
Mammon also said: "I can't kill if you don't have the will to kill someone with your own hands." And that basically mean that the stakes are perfectly harmless if summoned by a pacifist.
In other words whatever applies for weapons in the anti-fantasy also applies for furniture (who are created from weapon vessels) in the anti-mistery.

Was Battler's theoretical assertion that Kinzo may very well have been dead prior to October 4 applicable to all the previous games, to say that he was in fact already dead before the family meeting even started?

I have a strange belief that Kinzo may in fact very well be dead even before the games started. In fact, that he may have never been alive during ANY of the conferences to begin with. This is a massive mindfuck.

Spoiler for tea party ep4:

it was clearly stated that Kinzo was dead before any game. Anyway I would like to remind every persons that claimed (in front of Battler) they have talked to him throughout ep 1-3.

Nanjo: he says he was playing chess with Kinzo, various instances
Genji: Expecially in the first episode he's frequently questioned about Kinzo
Krauss: He says he has talked to Kinzo every time there's a dinner or a lunch (however he doesn't see him)
Natsuhi: Episode1 she claims she has seen him (however she only saw him from the back)
Shannon: Episode2 she says Kinzo made her write something (Genji politely tells her to shut up)
Rosa: Episode2 she claims she talked directly to Kinzo

With the exception of Rosa, every other case is shown to us. Some of those scenes might be explained if you think they are event of the past, however not all of them can. One in particular shows Nanjo (was it Nanjo? Well it doesn't matter) telling Kinzo to go to dinner at the very least to meet with Battler whom he hasn't seen in six years.

I don't think Kanon ever stated he met Kinzo in front of Battler, however that's probably because he doesn't talk too much. I have no doubt that if questioned he would have no problem saying that Kinzo is alive. Kanon has been seen talking to Kinzo in several occasions, and in one of them told him about the strategy the 3 younger siblings were using to get money from Krauss (which is yet another scene that can't be explained as an event of the past).

There aren't many options available to us:

1) There is a huge conspirancy involving various persons to keep Kinzo's death secret. Well Krauss and Natsuhi do have a reason, however I don't get how Natsuhi could still keep the secret even after the first twilight, so there must be something bigger.
2) There is a Kinzo who is not Kinzo but he/she acts as such and he/she is only shown as Kinzo to us. However it's hard to guess who that might be among the 17 (actually less because we can exclude everyone that is present at the dinner table while Krauss talks to Kinzo)
3) They are all hallucinating

Notable event:

Episode2 Natsuhi and Krauss talk about the meeting preparations. Natsuhi says: "No ......Genji and Doctor Nanjo are on our side. ...I'll never allow those greedy siblings to meet Father."

[Marion]

@Jan_Poo:

Spoiler for Reply:

Actually there's a 4th option:

The scenes we are shown are scenes FROM THE PAST.

Example: Scene where Shannon has to write something for Kinzo (maybe a will?). This could have been something that happened before and they just remembered about it. Same with the Natsuhi meeting Kinzo scene.

There is also something consistent as far as Kanon goes - apparently Kanon ALWAYS tells Kinzo about the family meeting over money. We were shown it in EP 1 and Kinzo tells Krauss in EP 4 that Kanon told him about what happened in the meeting. This means Kanon tells 'Kinzo' about these meetings, which only furthers my belief that Kanon is an accomplice to someone in some way.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Christen

Does anyone have a link and translation to the Enoura and La Plata theories? Those would be good material.

Ah, sorry about that. The plan was for them to be added into the doc Grimoire, but I forgot to send it.

Here's a summary thanks to Dormeur:

Spoiler for La plata and Enoura Theories:

These 2 theories about Umineko were actually posted on 2ch and on the official BBS.

Thanks to Dormeur for the explanations of the theories:

Enoura theory

>>My beloved hometown, the sweetfish river running through it.

The river is the Tokaido Line of Japanese National Railways (in 1986, called Japan Railways since 1987) which connects Odawara to Tokyo.

>>You who seek the Golden Land, follow its path downstream and seek the key.

Down line of the Tokaido Line is opposite to Tokyo.
So we follow the line towards Nagoya.

>>If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village.

On the map, there is a mark for a port, which resembles the character "里" (village). The port is Enoura fishing port（江之浦漁港）.
http://maps.google.co.jp/maps?f=q&so...1&ie=UTF8&z=14

>>In the village, look for the shore the two will tell you of.

Regarding "漁港"(Gyokou), the word for fishing port.
"漁"can also be read as "ryou".
And "港" can be read as "kou".

The Kanji character "両"(means "both") is also pronounced "ryou".
And "口"(means "mouth", or possibly "tell" in this context) is pronounced "kou".

>>There sleeps the key to the Golden Land.
>>He who lays hand upon the key shall travel under the rules below.
>>At the first twilight, you shall lift up as sacrifice the six chosen by the key.
"Enoura" has 6 characters.
In Japanese, "e no ura"（絵の裏）means "behind a picture".
So there is a door or a path behind the picture of Beatrice.

--------------------------------------

La Plata theory

>>My beloved hometown, the sweetfish river running through it.

The sweetfish represents Japan.
For Japan, "hometown" is Tokyo, the Japanese capital.
"River" means a line running through Tokyo around the Earth.

>>If you follow the river downstream, you will find a village.

"Village" means capitals of countries on the line.
On it, there are Buenos Aires, the capital of Argentina, and Montevideo, the capital of Uruguay.
They are opposite each other across the river, Rio de La Plata.
"Rio de la Plata" means "river of the silver" in English.
"silver" has 6 characters.
It's the key to the Golden Land.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I don't quite get it, but it looks like they changed the kanji in a way that you could put a "の" symbol in the middle like in the odd part that Rosa noticed.
江之浦→　ENOURA →絵の裏
I don't quite get it how this should help.

Anyway since Ryukishi mentioned them, they are probably completely off mark.

I don't know if this was largely discussed before, because I haven't been following the discussion threads on individual Episodes that good, so correct me if it is something that has been largely put to rest already.

BUT those Kanji made my mind rotate a bit because I started to develop some theories I can't remember being in the game.

Spoiler for gold location theory:

絵の裏 instead of 江之浦 for example would make a quite fascinating play on the hidden meaning topic.
Many people think about the entrance to the gold being hidden closer than anyone would think. What if it, or at least a way to get to it, would actually BE 絵の裏, so 'on the backside of the portrait'? Has anybody ever really checked the portrait?
And we know that there is the legend of Beatrice-sama emerging 'from the portrait at night'. So what if the servant who fell down the stairs, was actually pushed because he saw 'Beatrice' emerging from a hidden room behind the portrait at night.
This would give a nice additional meaning to the changing Portrait, because it is really the 'portal' for the culprit to enter and leave.

Somehow this seems a bit too easy...and I bet this was discussed already, but right now, to me...I think it's a nice idea.

EDIT: Okay somebody posted something on this while I was sorting out ideas. So again sorry if this has already been discussed to death.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Marion

@Jan_Poo:

Spoiler for Reply:

Actually there's a 4th option:

The scenes we are shown are scenes FROM THE PAST.

Example: Scene where Shannon has to write something for Kinzo (maybe a will?). This could have been something that happened before and they just remembered about it. Same with the Natsuhi meeting Kinzo scene.

There is also something consistent as far as Kanon goes - apparently Kanon ALWAYS tells Kinzo about the family meeting over money. We were shown it in EP 1 and Kinzo tells Krauss in EP 4 that Kanon told him about what happened in the meeting. This means Kanon tells 'Kinzo' about these meetings, which only furthers my belief that Kanon is an accomplice to someone in some way.

Spoiler for episode4 tea party:

No I've already contemplated this possibility and I found out it can't be applied to any scenes. See the scenes where Nanjo (or whoever he is) tells Kinzo to meet Battler whom he hasn't seen in 6 years.
In addition Kanon tells in detail that the 3 siblings devised a plan to get money from Krauss. It is hard to imagine something similar also happened in 1985 or before. Unless that also happened in the past, however that is impossible because in that scene they talk with Nanjo who claims that Kinzo he has ony 3 months left to live same as the year before. And the first time Nanjo gave that diagnosis was in 1985.

@chronotrig: thanx those are pretty interesting, expecially the enoura theory. However the painting in the main hall was only placed there 2 years before, so it is very unlikely there is a secret door behind that particular painting.

In the case of rio de la plata, I don't quite what happened to "the two", did they just ignored it?

[chronotrig]

Right here:

Originally Posted by chronotrig

On it, there are Buenos Aires, the capital of Argentina, and Montevideo, the capital of Uruguay.
They are opposite each other across the river, Rio de La Plata.
[/SPOILER]