Let's Re-Watch Macross Frontier (TV) Together!

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by karice67

For other characters, I completely agree. But their comments on their own characters give me food for thought, because they have to know more than is shown in order to (help) create the character in the first place. I don't always agree with what they say ( @ the 'gentleman' thing) but it's one way of finding out what the creators intended with them.

My thoughts are that voice actors have to train - more or less hard - to express the correct emotions. It is not seldom that they really go that far that in some points they think they are the character. I think it is a bit disrespectful towards their work because they are the most closest persons by giving them their voice and expressing their "emotions".

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

@ wisteria

Just so you know, I'm not trying to change what anyone here thinks of Ranka. I was just expressing my own opinion that I can understand why she left at that point, just as you all express your own opinions that whatever she said wasn't a good enough reason.

And I don't fault people for holding opinions different from the creators (I was only noting that theirs were different) - I don't like Ranka as much as they seem to do, after all. But here on AS, with anything positive being said on Ranka getting shot down/argued down asap, it sometimes feels like nothing is valid except the reading that "Ranka had no valid reason to leave, she made all the wrong decisions, she really regressed as a character" etc etc. If you're allowed to hold your own opinions, are the rest of us not allowed our own interpretations too?

That said, I'd like to find something more concrete about what Kawamori et al wanted to do with the characters, as that might help me put things in perspective wrt them.

Well your complaint goes right back to the action of the character which was dubious and you can't expect for everyone to see it your way.

Though I wouldn't say that everyone hates her either nor are they unable to say anything good about her. Because I have seen anyone here bash Movie Ranka yet. in fact quite the opposite members here have been saying good things about her. Even in this re-watch thread haven't the members here admitted that Ranka had to leave, however there are still problems with the way she did it, her timing, and the effect of her doing so. They still felt sympathy for her for breaking apart in episode 19-20 even though she brought it upon herself (kinda like Shiho from Mai-Hime).

Well the reason for a debate is to change someone's mind about something, and when ever you enter a debate about some thing you do so under the impression that you are trying to change their minds, which may just be impossible at this point, no matter how many interviews by Kawamori or Yoshino that are cited. That is not to say though that you can't have your own opinion no one has ever said that.

Its funny even though animesuki is notorious for not liking Ranka for that specific episode in truth they're pretty fair here towards her in terms of those episodes in other places they aren't so understanding. Your talking about something that was the cause of much internet backdraft.

One thing is sure though is that one cannot say that there wasn't a problem with TV series Ranka, or that Kawamori didn't notice that there was a problem, because if that was the case then they wouldn't have changed her personality so much in the movies.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

As for Alto being indecisive... I just don't see it. If the creators wanted to express that trait, in my own humble opinion, they failed miserably.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Its ironic because viewers really didn't start calling indecisive until the last episode aired.

Some people held that opinion from the middle of the series. Check Omni's comments on RC for episodes 18, 19, 20, 22 and 23. Example from 18:

Speaking of which, I’m starting to wish that Alto would just make up his damn mind. One moment he’s all about protecting Ranka, the next it’s all about Sheryl, and then he’s back to Ranka again. Earlier in the series it made sense when he was swinging one way or the other, but now it’s gotten both too frequent and tiresome/frustrating because it doesn’t feel like he’s made any progress in either direction. And given Alto’s nature and the pacing of the story, I’m not expecting him to make up his mind anytime soon either.

I think that's the "indecisiveness" everyone's talking about - I mean, both Kawamori and Yoshino imply that he did make a choice by the end of the series.

========

edit:

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Well the reason for a debate is to change someone's mind about something, and when ever you enter a debate about some thing you do so under the impression that you are trying to change their minds, which may just be impossible at this point, no matter how many interviews by Kawamori or Yoshino that are cited. That is not to say though that you can't have your own opinion no one has ever said that.

This is a debate? I was under the impression that it was meant to be a discussion, which is why I haven't actually tried to rebut any specific arguments wrt what Ranka did.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by karice67

For other characters, I completely agree. But their comments on their own characters give me food for thought, because they have to know more than is shown in order to (help) create the character in the first place. I don't always agree with what they say ( @ the 'gentleman' thing) but it's one way of finding out what the creators intended with them.

So far the commentary by them has been, IMO, very superficial. Listening to them, they don't seem to be doing much character analysis, but more of a "Oooooh, look here! Explosions!" commentary. When one of the writers joins them, things become more interesting.

Originally Posted by karice67

Some people held that opinion from the middle of the series. Check Omni's comments on RC for episodes 18, 19, 20, 22 and 23. Example from 18:I think that's the "indecisiveness" everyone's talking about - I mean, both Kawamori and Yoshino imply that he did make a choice by the end of the series.

Y'know "protecting Ranka" and "pursueing Sheryl" are not mutually exclusive. When Ranka ain't leaving Frontier, that is.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

So far the commentary by them has been, IMO, very superficial. Listening to them, they don't seem to be doing much character analysis, but more of a "Oooooh, look here! Explosions!" commentary. When one of the writers joins them, things become more interesting.

That was like what, for episodes 4 and 7? And the joking in 20 which was, IMO, understandable? How about the rest of the commentaries? I'm sorry, I really don't have the time or energy to sub all of them, but unless you listen to them, you won't know when they're being serious, would you? Nor that the jokes sometimes lead to some interesting insights. They do actually take their work seriously, and this does come out in interviews and in some parts of the commentary.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Y'know "protecting Ranka" and "pursuing Sheryl" are not mutually exclusive. When Ranka ain't leaving Frontier, that is.

I just don't see his actions vis-a-vis Sheryl prior to, say, episodes 18/19 as 'pursuing Sheryl'.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

Some people held that opinion from the middle of the series. Check Omni's comments on RC for episodes 18, 19, 20, 22 and 23. I think that's the "indecisiveness" everyone's talking about - I mean, both Kawamori and Yoshino imply that he did make a choice.

but then again that's just perspective isn't it? To me that was just disinterest, and then confusion. The best way to prove is not indecisive to have them make a choice, and stick with it, Alto stuck with most of his choices (well the ones that he made sincerely anyway).

The problem with implications is that not everyone can realize that they're there and can therefore ignore them. After all even though Alto never refers to Ranka in a romantic sense, he never leads her on (which is kinda why I agree with Kawamori calling him a gentleman). Though at this point int he series I do wish for some inner monologue with Alto, they exist for a reason.

=====

Originally Posted by karice67

This is a debate? I was under the impression that it was meant to be a discussion, which is why I haven't actually tried to rebut any specific arguments wrt what Ranka did.

Well it is a point of much internet backdraft, and anytime anyone brings it up it ends up becoming a debate.

[karice67]

^
Was just pointing out that some people did think he was indecisive before the last episode came out, in their interpretation of his actions.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by karice67

That was like what, for episodes 4 and 7? And the joking in 20 which was, IMO, understandable? How about the rest of the commentaries? I'm sorry, I really don't have the time or energy to sub all of them, but unless you listen to them, you won't know when they're being serious, would you? Nor that the jokes sometimes lead to some interesting insights. They do actually take their work seriously, and this does come out in interviews and in some parts of the commentary.

True, I based my comments on what I heard from your sub.

Originally Posted by karice67

I just don't see his actions vis-a-vis Sheryl prior to, say, episodes 18/19 as 'pursuing Sheryl'.

Or trying to spend some time with her, whatever.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by karice67

^
Was just pointing out that some people did think he was indecisive before the last episode came out, in their interpretation of his actions.

Hmm, seems like you are pointing at me right? And I still think that he was indecesive until Ranka left (solving the triangler) and Ozma (stays to protect the people of frontier or to bring down the false ruler) after he had his dogfight with him.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

^
Was just pointing out that some people did think he was indecisive before the last episode came out, in their interpretation of his actions.

'tis perspective

also LOL at your avatar.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Or trying to spend some time with her, whatever.

Funny that, before the all-important ep.22, out of all the time they've spent together, Alto's actively sought Sheryl out like three times? (ep.6 and ep.19, and ep 15 (with Ranka)). Each with arguably a good reason. Whilst I think that Alto's spent more time with Sheryl than with Ranka, that seems to have more to do with the forwardness (or lack thereof) on the part of the girls than a particular desire on his part to spend time with them.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

'tis perspective

also LOL at your avatar.

I think we're going around in circles again. I wasn't trying to say anything about your perspective in particular. My point is simply that others' perspectives can (and should be) be considered valid too, non? If you say it's just a matter of perspective, that's fine by me, but they did call him "indecisive".

I thought it'd be nice to lighten the mood. Watching it cycle through also makes me feel better.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Hmm, seems like you are pointing at me right? And I still think that he was indecesive until Ranka left (solving the triangler) and Ozma (stays to protect the people of frontier or to bring down the false ruler) after he had his dogfight with him.

Hm...if you did think he was indecisive 3 years ago, before ep 25 came out, I suppose. I wasn't actually around at the time...

=====

Anyways, it's Saturday for me, so moving on (for the moment at least)!

My favourite moment in ep.23 is Alto using one of Sheryl's catch phrases, producing this reaction:

To me, that one line says more about their relationship than the rest of the scene does.

Also, I thought the CGI in this scene was cool...


I wish Klan hadn't said that weird "So that is your love" line. It's almost as bad as the 'wings' one...

And going back what I thought was an insightful comment:

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

A few episodes ago, Alto was piloting under the orders of SMS. Now he's piloting under Leon's orders. As Yasaburo (points) out in a critical scene (this) episode, Alto's desire to fight in the war has much less to do with his convictions regarding the Vajra than it does his desire to simply be a pilot.

Alto has his reasons for staying on Frontier, and he never abandons those feelings. That being said, this isn't quite the same as Alto's "purpose", any more than Sheryl's "purpose" is to allow herself to be protected...

I quite agree - at least until Alto finally does decide, at the end of the episode, that he's fighting to protect Frontier, to protect the fragile (but beautiful) place that he calls his home.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by karice67

Funny that, before the all-important ep.22, out of all the time they've spent together, Alto's actively sought Sheryl out like three times? (ep.6 and ep.19, and ep 15 (with Ranka)). Each with arguably a good reason. Whilst I think that Alto's spent more time with Sheryl than with Ranka, that seems to have more to do with the forwardness (or lack thereof) on the part of the girls than a particular desire on his part to spend time with them.

I think it was a good time more that they spent together, re: Nanase's comments to Ranka in episode 11. Of course that could have well been Sheryl seeking out Alto again.The amount of time which passes between episodes 15 and 18 did not seem that long altogether, given that Sheryl spent most of the time in the hospital. Eps 19 to 21 also pass very quickly, after that it gets blurry how much time passes until episode 24.

[DragoZERO]

In the first half it's Sheryl, then it's back to Ranka all of a sudden. What gives!? Alto... you fool.

And how does doing the two final episodes back to back next week sound?

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

In the first half it's Sheryl, then it's back to Ranka all of a sudden. What gives!? Alto... you fool.

He is not going back but as someone who has chosen to defend the people on frontier he has to consider to kill in combat even it is a dearest friend.

The only thing what makes him a fool is that it looks like he is swallowing the bait what Leon has thrown out.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

The only thing what makes him a fool is that it looks like he is swallowing the bait what Leon has thrown out.

He does actually say "IF Ranka were to become a tool of the Vajra, IF her song were to be used to destroy us"...

Would he have investigated without Sheryl's prompting next episode? Who knows...

edit: almost forgot this - for THORA viewers, at 9.04 "The Vajra Our enemies/They will definitely be on the move"

and more stuff:

- Vajra = Zerg?
- hm...seems like the Vajra attacked because Grace et al were around. So Ranka's plan would have worked if she'd been with anyone but Brera?
- so why did the Vajra destroy the 117th fleet? To try and kill Grace?

[SS13]

My Comments on 22:


- The Sheryl-Ranka-Hourglass-Plot is complete here, with Sharyl being managed by Elmo (and Ranka was, before leaving, managed by Grace), and THEN being engaged by Frontier government.

- Again we see Sheryl's charachter development. Not only does she charity concerts now, but she also understands this puts Elmo in a bad position, compared to hers.
To elaborate, charity and small-group concerts are just as (in)effective in regaining popularity as vegetable advertisment, but Elmo would have gotten more money from the latter... but of course Sheryl's self-esteem would be damaged. She hasn't sunk that low... yet, and now she is rediscovered by government.

- Sheryl now has somewhat caught herself and can even make jokes about her predicament. Her snideful remarks to Lucas are hard, but Lucas deserved it .

- Well, Sheryl, you wanted to control Vajra like Ranka, you get it! Though Sheryl doesn't seem entorely unhappy with this (see below).

- The scenes with Grace are done very funny. How she comments about Frontier "Just happening in the way", only to be suddenly told that SHE is in (Leon's) way... only to demonstrate WHY she is better. I actually expected her to be "killed" and resurrected (just like in ep 15), but the finale makes her even more formidable.

- The "SMS becomes Pirates" line is also very good. This shows again why SMS existed in the first place - thinking aside of bureaucracy is extremely important in such situations.

- Regarding Alto's decision to stay - note that he wasn't given a reason as to why they leave. They contacted not everybody with information regarding Leon, so for Alto it really seems they just leave Frontier in order not to be in military... which is not a valid reason for him. As for his loss, well, I guess VF-25 REALLY is better.


Now some deeper points.

First about Sheryl's motives - there IS a slight less-than-honest motive here. You see, Sheryl sees herself as new Minmay, or Nekki Basara (The movie outright says so, but the series also shows it - her Pilot stunts in fact stem from this). THEN comes episode 18 where Grace tells Sheryl she is doomed both literally and as a singer. And lates we see this confirmed - those short weeks of illness already pulled Sheryl into obsolescence. Sure, Sheryl could get some popularity back - she does make some of it by ep 22. But this is not really helping - if people forgot her during her illness, they will surely forget her once she dies!

And it is this combination if impending death AND being forgotten, becoming just another small note, that nags at Sheryl the most. No one wants to disappear into nothingness, especially not someone who shortly before considered herself the new center of the universe!

And then here, in 22, she is offered the chance to prevent her obsolescence, if not her death. Sheryl the Idol Singer could be easily forgotten. Sheryl the Singer Who Defeated Vajra and Saved Frontier - effectively Sheryl the Next Lynn Mynmay - can not. That's the meaning of the line "They[my songs] are the only proof I existed!" And if this requires her dying faster, well she is doomed either way - she will die if Frontier is destroyed and she cannot live that much longer as there is no cure anyway. For her this is THE deal - IF she pull this through, she will be remembered.

Yet this doesn't change the fact that what she does is nothing short of heroism. She IS sacrificing what little is left of her life for it, she is ready (unlike Ranka) to put herself UNDER the other's command, and to EARN herself a place in history. Because Minmay DESERVES her place, as does Nekki Basara - whatever their other motives, their songs SAVED people, many people, and Sheryl is about to do the same, with no regards to personal safety. And we clearly see that for Sheryl, the ability to to good with her songs is VERX important - she clearly "jumps at the call", to say so.

This all makes a BIG contrast with Ranka's running away. But Ranka does heve her reasons, too. She KNOWS that Vajra are not the monsters the other see them, and her very purity makes what she does (essentially singing to kill) very hard to her. She is not like Ozma or Sheryl, who DO know that "You or me" situations often. (In fact she probably didn't realise what she did to Sheryl by "overthrowing" her either). She knows Frontier just usesher through, and she has none of it. And yet, she doesn't have the maturity to stand up t herself, she can only deal with it by running away, just like in ep 5. The point is not
"Ranka isn't innocent", but rather "Ranka is still childish and cannot cope with that pressure", so she runs away from it, even thoough people are going to die ; just because she cannot cope with her feelings (Michael, anyone?) . And this is hard to forgive, even if it#s possible to understand it.

As for Alto, surely the decision in this episode is NOT easy - Ozma was his mentor after all and he DOES feel that Leon only uses Sheryl - but he understands that right now Sheryl must help Frontier - and he must help her, even is that's means going agaist Ozma.


By the way the tie-in novel

Spoiler for Regarding AruSherry:

confirms that Sheryl and Alto made love. The question is whether it can be seen as commitment or just "Once before I die" thing on Sheryl's part.

[Lancel]

There is a question here of principles and of morality. At this stage Frontier is a corrupt government but filled with good people. Despite corruption, the government is inspired to protect the people, perhaps in part because the people are their source of power, or because protecting them also saves Leon's sorry hide. A further development comes with the Vajra, of making peace or giving in to the more public feeling of "Them or Us". It's quite an interesting dilemma really. For some protecting everyone means leaving them, and for others they can't bring themselves to abandon them that way, even if for their own good.

It provides an interesting dynamic of seeing principles wanting to stay with the fleet versus principles for leaving the fleet, and which way they each go. Monomyth would probably favor Ranka and SMS as the heroes, while Alto and Sheryl as the guys that stay behind in the village because someone has to or something.

I'm still not clear what Leon really planned on doing, but he seemed intent to hold onto his power in Frontier to the bitter end.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by SS13

Now some deeper points.

First about Sheryl's motives - there IS a slight less-than-honest motive here. You see, Sheryl sees herself as new Minmay, or Nekki Basara (The movie outright says so, but the series also shows it - her Pilot stunts in fact stem from this). THEN comes episode 18 where Grace tells Sheryl she is doomed both literally and as a singer. And lates we see this confirmed - those short weeks of illness already pulled Sheryl into obsolescence. Sure, Sheryl could get some popularity back - she does make some of it by ep 22. But this is not really helping - if people forgot her during her illness, they will surely forget her once she dies!

And it is this combination if impending death AND being forgotten, becoming just another small note, that nags at Sheryl the most. No one wants to disappear into nothingness, especially not someone who shortly before considered herself the new center of the universe!

And then here, in 22, she is offered the chance to prevent her obsolescence, if not her death. Sheryl the Idol Singer could be easily forgotten. Sheryl the Singer Who Defeated Vajra and Saved Frontier - effectively Sheryl the Next Lynn Mynmay - can not. That's the meaning of the line "They[my songs] are the only proof I existed!" And if this requires her dying faster, well she is doomed either way - she will die if Frontier is destroyed and she cannot live that much longer as there is no cure anyway. For her this is THE deal - IF she pull this through, she will be remembered.

Yet this doesn't change the fact that what she does is nothing short of heroism. She IS sacrificing what little is left of her life for it, she is ready (unlike Ranka) to put herself UNDER the other's command, and to EARN herself a place in history. Because Minmay DESERVES her place, as does Nekki Basara - whatever their other motives, their songs SAVED people, many people, and Sheryl is about to do the same, with no regards to personal safety. And we clearly see that for Sheryl, the ability to to good with her songs is VERX important - she clearly "jumps at the call", to say so.

The only problem being that you pulled that motivation completely out of your ass. First off, where, except in your imagination, does the series state that Sheryl wants to learn to fly to be more like Basara? The series shows us that Sheryl became fascinated with flying when Alto took her for a ride in episode eight.

Secondly, all this deeper "selfish" motivation you are attributing to Sheryl also wasn't shown on the show. Again, the series shows us directly that Sheryl decides to return to accept Leon's offer when she thinks of the victims of the recent Vajra attack. That she wants to continue singing because for her, I quote, "Singing is all I have left now. It's the only thing telling me that I'm still alive".

The show never shows us and Sheryl never tells us that she does this for the motives you made up.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

That she wants to continue singing because for her, I quote, "Singing is all I have left now. It's the only thing telling me that I'm still alive".

Not that I agree with SS13's analysis of Sheryl, but actually,

"They[my songs] are the only proof I existed!"

is a more accurate translation of the line.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by karice67

Not that I agree with SS13's analysis of Sheryl, but actually, is a more accurate translation of the line.

I'm beginning to think that THORA's reputation for excellent translations is somewhat overstated. ^^

ANYway, on to episode 23.

- I feel I must comment on this at least once: The new opening of the show has amazing quality. I did not like the original titles, but these ones... I very seldomly skip them when seeing those episodes.

- Since this is the episode where we see Alto finally asserting his beliefs, it fits that the first scene we see him in already foreshadows his thought processes.

- Followed directly, of course, by his two new subordinates teasing him with his relationship with Sheryl.

- The short intermission we get also shows how fastly Frontier is approaching a level where it isn't sustainable anymore. You get a good feeling how grim the situation is by the expression on everyones face.

- I could open up the debate about the V-Type disease infection rate again, but I think I'll let that particular pain in the ass pass. Anyway, yes, Sheryl and Alto made love, so either Alto took some anti-V-Type disease pills afterwards or it wasn't as infectious as some people claim. In any case, Sheryl seems worried that direct contact with her blood ( was Alto going to suck her finger? ) would be detrimental.

- And Sheryl seems very affected by housewife-Alto.

- And, ow, the writers really know how to turn such a sweet moment into a heart-rending one for a few seconds. Not to mention all the implications about Sheryls worldview which come from it. Anyway, I don't know if I prefer the street-rat Sheryl background to "raised by Grace" background of the movie. I guess since Grace was de-vilified for the movie the latter fitted better there, but with TV supervillain Grace, this background is more appropiate, however much suffering Sheryl had to go through.

- Good table manners apparently weren't high on Graces schedule when teaching Sheryl. You can almost see Altos thought process of "I got to teach her to use chopsticks sometime soon". ^^

- How Alto can not jump at the chance to carry Sheryl to bed is something I can't really understand.

- But, yeah, Sheryl is letting herself depend on Alto. It's not even that it seems a bad thing to do this at this time. Alto promised to be there for her and she is relying on him to be her strength. But I definitely can also see how he is torn up over that... he knows their time together is limited and it pains him. Deeply.

- All this talk from Brera about being supposed to be nothing more than a combat machine... I wonder how the rights of cyborgs are regulated? It seems at least on Galaxy they are more of a commodity than a person. Again, I think the next Macross project should be about a natural humans vs. implanted humans war, because there seems to be the next big conflict brewing. After that, having a new Zentraedi faction enemy for the next series would be a "return to the roots" approach.

- You know, I really have to wonder what Mr.Bilrers ultimate motivations were. He was working with Leon on one side and warning Alto about Ranka, but did he mean it that way? In the end, it remains unclear if he actually thought that Ranka was meant to be the link between Vajra and mankind, destined to bring ruin on humans.

- In any case, I don't see Alto at fault here for believing what Leon and Bilrer said. After all, he did not have a better source of information and was kept out of the loop about Leons atrocities.

- And, ow ow ow to Rankas impulsive stupidity. Jumping out of a cockpit when you are under danger of being attacked? Ow.

- You know, the show never properly explained how Grace and Brera were able to not only evade the Vajra but to actively infiltrate them so much, that Grace could take over the Queen.

- And we get a glimpse of how Sheryl views her own situation... basically mirroring the fears so many of us had back then of Alto being kind to her only because of pity, explainin in large parts why she did not want him to get wind of her illness.

- Then again we know that Alto was genuine in his feelings.

- Heh, I just noticed now that Yasaburo finally opened his eyes. ^^

- Anyway, his last ditch effort to make Alto come back to acting ( or maybe even only to come back and make up with his dad ) unwittingly puts Alto on the thought process which finally makes him state his feelings outright.

- You know, the hero worship which made Nanase paint Ranka as an angel is somewhat disturbing.

- But I find it nice to see that Alto and even Klan are looking up on Nanase.

- Now, it is very interesting to hear from Alto that he has been running away and pretending to not notice some things. But which things is he talking about? A lot of people chose to interpret his words to be about the two girls, but when one does look at what the footage shows, it seems that he is rather talking about him running away from his feelings for his home and him now taking responsibility for himself in that particular way.

- And of course Sheryl shows up at the worst moment, so that she does not get the whole speech of his, but only the parts which indicate (somewhat) him caring so deeply about Ranka that he wants to fold-bomb her in the face, if necessary. Klans wonderfully interpretable remark of "Is this your love?" did certainly help Sheryl make the wrong interpretation.