Romance in Code Geass (take 4)

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

yes many artist use death in the sense of martydom, and heroism is linked to death, but also cowardice is linked to death. Heroic militant dies fighting invading forces, fighting for his freedom, but that same militant can be seen as somebody who can't accept his reality, and knowing that in his death he may escape his fate. The only way to develop a clear picture is through writing, developing the characters, so their actions actually represent heart felt jestures, which the writers of this series neglected in r2, thats why all these supplemental materials are needed, because these guys did a sloppy job, I will tell you right now that episode 18 of clannad was picture perfect, it settled all the issues of the love polygon, through one action, Tomoya smacking some dude whos trying to help nagisa, now with literally 4x the episodes, some of the gestures in the romance are vague, why? Because the characters are not developed enough, the pyschy of the characters are not discussed, plus we have a monomaniacal unreliabale narrator, lelouch. Unfortunately this is not Moby Dick, where the unreliable narrator is intentional, the doubt created by the writers in not from purposely doing so, its through indecisive writing about the characters themselves, and their actions

... We were talking about death being used as a way to propel plot and character development in literature. Martyrdom is a way for death to be portrayed but the death itself can have massive impact on characters in the story or the plot which is the point of it. Nor is Martyrdom the only way with which to portray death.

Now in terms of heroism being linked to death, in a way that is almost true. Heroic tales often follow the heroic pattern and one of which is the hero facing death, either literally or metaphorically. Most of the time it is not connected with cowardice as you seem to put it but as an obstacle to overcome and often the hero will journey to the land of the dead and return with knowledge or a boon. There are also many themes of death that do not tie into cowardice like the "love death" theme in Tristan and Isolde or the idea of death being a gateway to rebirth by spiritual means and gaining of spiritual powers as Shamanistic cultures believe. Cowardice and escape is just one interpretation in death among many both in literature and in cultural values around the world.

While I will say that the writing in R2 is convoluted towards the end, Clannad is not exactly a great choice for comparison. First consider the genre that both of these shows belong to. Was romantic relationship a prevailent theme in Code Geass? Certainly not. Romantic elements in CG were there as the icing on the cake as it were and meant to spice up the core story. Now obviously they dropped the ball on it as well as alot of other things. Point of the matter is that romance was not the focus like it was in Clannad. Even in Clannad it was a far cry from picture perfect. It is just that they had the guts to end it at all rather then leave it hanging. But if I were to pick an example I'd go with Lafiel and Jinto from the Crest/Banner of the Stars series. How two strangers that were worlds apart developed a friendship and perhaps more as the series goes on, how their relationship gradually gets closer and develops. Of course that is hardly fair to make that comparision because one of the main plots to Crest and Banner of the stars is to develop Lafiel and Jinto's relationship. So what was the point of this? Well I for one am just a bit tired of seeing those comparisons. Even at it's best, any romantic relationship in CG will always be underdeveloped compared to a show where the focus of it was character interaction and relationships.

Ultimately, yeah, Code Geass R2 had massive problems but the love issues are the farthest ones from preventing this series from being great.

[TiaxZatch]

Well Code Geass wasn't really made for love. It's a subplot to keep some viewers watching. Sure worked on me though. I think the romance of the anime was really rushed and really underdeveloped that could have been worked on more. I don't know why they wanted a set limit of episodes at 25, especially a show that popular. I would've been content with 50.

Anyways I'm going to continue my attempt at a ShirLulu AMV...not looking good so far. =/

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by TiaxZatch

Well Code Geass wasn't really made for love. It's a subplot to keep some viewers watching. Sure worked on me though. I think the romance of the anime was really rushed and really underdeveloped that could have been worked on more. I don't know why they wanted a set limit of episodes at 25, especially a show that popular. I would've been content with 50.

Anyways I'm going to continue my attempt at a ShirLulu AMV...not looking good so far. =/

Well yeah. It was a terroristoo-show and some other pretty things.

But romance, was an important factor for a lot of characters. Certain feelings triggered certain actions, so yeah. It was certainly not about "rabu-rabu" but the romantic air was heavy around the Geass places. |DDD;

[SonOfHeaven]

Characters like Shirley and Kallen(she was developed that way in R2). The romantic aspect of CG was a big deal for these characters especially. I thought the staff did an decent job with the romance but they just didn't resolve it properly.

[Lolipopo]

Card game, every main character is King/Queen/Ace/blabla (Suzaku and Lulu as Queens. Yeah. Right)

OH GOD GUYS, CC IS THE QUEEN OF HEARTS, THAT CONFIRMS LULU/CC TO BE THE CANON PAIRING, SUCK IT LULU/KALLENFAGS

That's why I love logic

Characters like Shirley and Kallen(she was developed that way in R2). The romantic aspect of CG was a big deal for these characters especially. I thought the staff did an decent job with the romance but they just didn't resolve it properly.

The thing is, they had everything to resolved it and yet they didn't. Cause seriously, if it was to an ambiguous ending, I can understand, but what was the pont to ruin one of the two main ships afterwads ?

Just throw in the show the missing gum line and the little wish line and the ambiguity is killed; Romance was nicely handle but well, we got an " non inished" taste at the end, for some characters in a romance matter. Thus the bad resolution -_-

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

Card game, every main character is King/Queen/Ace/blabla (Suzaku and Lulu as Queens. Yeah. Right)

"OH GOD GUYS, CC IS THE QUEEN OF HEARTS, THAT CONFIRMS LULU/CC TO BE THE CANON PAIRING, SUCK IT LULU/KALLENFAGS "

That's why I love logic

Lulz, what? Who posted this definitely rational-super-duper-logical conclsion about CCxLelouch?

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

The thing is, they had everything to resolved it and yet they didn't. Cause seriously, if it was to an ambiguous ending, I can understand, but what was the pont to ruin one of the two main ships afterwads ?

Hmm, not really. The romance could not be resolved by default after episode 21. I mean, what would they have Lelouch do in relevance to his LI?

1.For Shirley -- Having Lelouch sing a love-forever-anthem right before Lancelot busts the conference in 22?
2.For C.C -- That scene in 24, would totally turn into a hot-hot-romance scene while it was not supposed to be like this at all? {oh well, i guess this can be 0,00000001 arguable cause Kallen interrupts. Ahem, no.}
3.For Kallen -- The kiss scene in 22, would totally turn into a romantic-deep-mutual connection something and then having Lelouch telling Kallen to follow him or something? Does not work that way. {come to think of it, it semi-worked though, the first part. 8D}

Ridiculous scenarios yes, the point is that there could not be a "clear" resolve in the last episodes, because Lelouch became ZR-man. No room for other feelings.

And yet, some pieces are being given by certain materials that reveal little by little Lelouch's feelings. Feelings, that of course are not zomg!deep-Titanic ones but you can get a vague idea.

[youngde]

Card game, every main character is King/Queen/Ace/blabla (Suzaku and Lulu as Queens. Yeah. Right)


Quote:
OH GOD GUYS, CC IS THE QUEEN OF HEARTS, THAT CONFIRMS LULU/CC TO BE THE CANON PAIRING, SUCK IT LULU/KALLENFAGS

That's why I love logic


Yeah, and Kallen is 'Q-1.' That means she's queen to Lelouch's king, so Kalulu is canon. (NOTE: sarcasm) I can make overarching claims based on a metaphore, too. (At least my metaphor occured in series and was mentioned several times, btw. She was called an Ace, too--explaning her playing card.)

Honestly, if anyone took anything so trivial and used it as anything more than a minor point toward their pairing, that's really reaching too far.

Anyway,

youngde, signing off.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by youngde

Honestly, if anyone took anything so trivial and used it as anything more than a minor point toward their pairing, that's really reaching too far.

I think whoever wrote this totally constructive quote, was mostly joking but using the word "Kalulu fags" is a knee-jerk reaction / hostility / jealously.

At any rate, this is another example of why Kallen is getting so much hate in R2. It is not because she is zomg-exhibitionist {yeah, that is there too} or annoying or anything like this that certain people tend to claim.
I mean, Kallen's core is the same as in S1, {was there any problem then? Nah.} she just develops romantic feelings about Lelouch.

And oh yes, she manages to "raw! raw! fight the power!" of another certain pairing's merchandise-tidal-waves. She broke the un-breakable rule of marketing and ugh, that reminds me btw, [cause i have seen this flying around like an annoying bee] there is RARELY solo development when it comes to a character. If the character a+ does not get certain response {even tiny ones, shall do thank you} from character b++, then the development of chara a++ gets on hiatus or something. Did this happen to Kallen? Hmm, don't think so. [and yes, chara b++ was surprisssee! Lelouch 8DD]

Otherwise there would not be so much wank-ruckus concerning her right now.

[Xander]

Reading all the talk about Shirley's treatment in R2 reminded me of something I had heard before, so I looked it up.

http://community.livejournal.com/lel...rley/6552.html

This was written from the point of view of a Shirley x Lelouch shipper, but I can kinda agree with some of the interpretations, which make her character and her death a little more significant to the show's final outcome than most people assume.

That's it, really, not much else I can add.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Xander

Reading all the talk about Shirley's treatment in R2 reminded me of something I had heard before, so I looked it up.

http://community.livejournal.com/lel...rley/6552.html

This was written from the point of view of a Shirley x Lelouch shipper, but I can kinda agree with some of the interpretations, which make her character and her death a little more significant to the show's final outcome than most people assume.

That's it, really, not much else I can add.

Yeah, that has been posted before, more than two times.
Shirley was really a tragic character Jesus, i have always thought that she was kinda the Subaru-CLAMP figure in a sense, you know, "we just have to make you more miserable."
Oh well. :x

C.C hopped on the same boat as well, just replace miserable with non-development pretty much.
Kallen was really the one that took the cake in R2, her fans should be hella content with everything she got. |DD;

[Lolipopo]

Originally Posted by youngde

Card game, every main character is King/Queen/Ace/blabla (Suzaku and Lulu as Queens. Yeah. Right)


Quote:
OH GOD GUYS, CC IS THE QUEEN OF HEARTS, THAT CONFIRMS LULU/CC TO BE THE CANON PAIRING, SUCK IT LULU/KALLENFAGS

That's why I love logic


Yeah, and Kallen is 'Q-1.' That means she's queen to Lelouch's king, so Kalulu is canon. (NOTE: sarcasm) I can make overarching claims based on a metaphore, too. (At least my metaphor occured in series and was mentioned several times, btw. She was called an Ace, too--explaning her playing card.)

Honestly, if anyone took anything so trivial and used it as anything more than a minor point toward their pairing, that's really reaching too far.

Anyway,

youngde, signing off.

The better thing is that this post is totally OT for the card game
*Lulu : King/Ace/Queen = Spades
*Suzaku : Same than Lulu for Clover
*CC : Same for Hearts
And Kallen, same for Diamonds.

Well, to quote this post was more of a way to point out that Kallen's hate is going on rampage lately, and majorly for shipping reasons.

I mean, seriously, let' take a look to this kind of thing :

Kallen is a shame for female sex!: IS A SLAVE PROTOTYPE!!, Lelouch's puppet!, she have no personality, that make me sick! YAK!! She really irks me!
Kallen acts like "Oh!, look at me, I'm super strong and OMG!! Zero is looking at me!! Ohhhhhh!!! I'm super happy!", is sooo idiot!
I mean, Lelouch asked Kallen that console him as if she was a bitch because that is exactly what she is and Lelouch realized that, I HATE THAT KIND OF WOMAN!!
Other thing: Kallen ruins the best moment between Lulu & C.C. and that is unforgivable!! KALLEN IS JUST A F*CKING BITCH AND I HATE HER SO MUCH, is in the top of my super hated anime female characters list!

Shipping is serious buisness....

Sky : the thing is, without changing the whole plot, those insights abou Lulu's feelings could have been add in the serie; His little wish line alone is already awesome, It wouldn't have take a lot of efforts to put this in the serie, unless to give us only this flashback pause (yeah Kalulu CMOA in the last turn...) just this line, pointing he got a personnl wish just for her would have hold a lot of meaning.

And the rolled gumline...
No seriously. Whoever create those lines and choose to not put them in the anime is cruel.

(And Lol at Raw Raw Fight the powa !We really are twins aren't we ? *subtitle hints*)

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

Sky : the thing is, without changing the whole plot, those insights abou Lulu's feelings could have been add in the serie; His little wish line alone is already awesome, It wouldn't have take a lot of efforts to put this in the serie, unless to give us only this flashback pause (yeah Kalulu CMOA in the last turn...) just this line, pointing he got a personnl wish just for her would have hold a lot of meaning.

And the rolled gumline...
No seriously. Whoever create those lines and choose to not put them in the anime is cruel.

(And Lol at Raw Raw Fight the powa !We really are twins aren't we ? *subtitle hints*)

Ughh, what can i say? {just give me the links woman, i want to lol as well}

A lot of people do not get, that the beauty of KallenxLelouch relationship, is that they managed to make the impossible, possible for a second, even if they were getting interruptions like candies.
The fact, that they developed feelings in a warzone concept and with all the circumstances against them and that they needed to focus on 84394839 things together, and still had that connection, just speaks so much volumes, it is not even funny.

The reason i appreciate this winning ship so much in R2. {even if my original OTP was different, oh yes, i can be Kalulu that likes other pairings as well. |DDD;}

eta:: Loli, it is like Kalulu fans are singing the refrain of this song, every time a marketing pic comes out, like all together in this. |DD; {sing it along with certain bombs 8DD} And yep, twins ftw.

[mngafan]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Yeah, that has been posted before, more than two times.
Shirley was really a tragic character Jesus, i have always thought that she was kinda the Subaru-CLAMP figure in a sense, you know, "we just have to make you more miserable."
Oh well. :x

C.C hopped on the same boat as well, just replace miserable with non-development pretty much.
Kallen was really the one that took the cake in R2, her fans should be hella content with everything she got. |DD;

I think that all 3 characters got a decent number of scenes together with lelouch. I don't see how one got less development than another. As a cluclu fan, I'm pretty satisfied with what we got of c.c x lelouch from R2, and the code geass series as a whole.


Love was a major aspect of R2, in the sense that it drove people to push themselves to their limits and perform certain acts which would not have been thought of without love. However, as some said,the romantic relationships were not developed as in a romance anime. For me,this part of code geass is open to interpretations.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Ughh, what can i say? {just give me the links woman, i want to lol as well}

A lot of people do not get, that the beauty of KallenxLelouch relationship, is that they managed to make the impossible, possible for a second, even if they were getting interruptions like candies.
The fact, that they developed feelings in a warzone concept and with all the circumstances against them and that they needed to focus on 84394839 things together, and still had that connection, just speaks so much volumes, it is not even funny.

The reason i appreciate this winning ship so much in R2. {even if my original OTP was different, oh yes, i can be Kalulu that likes other pairings as well. |DDD;}

eta:: Loli, it is like Kalulu fans are singing the refrain of this song, every time a marketing pic comes out, like all together in this. |DD; {sing it along with certain bombs 8DD} And yep, twins ftw.

This made me think. I know Kalulu is beautiful in it's own way, but so is Shirlulu. I think (part of) what makes Shirlulu beautiful, or powerful, is that Shirley deeply loved Lelouch, and yet he was a man she had every reason to hate. Lets recap everything she knows right before her death:

-She knows Lelouch is Zero
-She knows Lelouch killed her father
-She knows Lelouch killed lots of other people
-She knows Lelouch lied to her and their friends
-She knows Lelouch has done a lot of other bad miscellaneous crap
-She knows Lelouch geassed her and erased her memories
-She knows that, because of her association with Lelouch, the Emperor rewrote her memories
-And to top it all off, she knows she is dying due to her involvement in Lelouch's life and her mother is going to lose the only family she has left.

And I'm sure there's probably some other stuff. Oh, and not to mention, as you said before sky, about her "dying" 3 or 4 times for his sake. The fact that she could still love him after all that is just...beautiful. This is no high school crush, this is true unyielding love

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Ughh, what can i say? {just give me the links woman, i want to lol as well}

A lot of people do not get, that the beauty of KallenxLelouch relationship, is that they managed to make the impossible, possible for a second, even if they were getting interruptions like candies.
The fact, that they developed feelings in a warzone concept and with all the circumstances against them and that they needed to focus on 84394839 things together, and still had that connection, just speaks so much volumes, it is not even funny.

The reason i appreciate this winning ship so much in R2. {even if my original OTP was different, oh yes, i can be Kalulu that likes other pairings as well. |DDD;}

eta:: Loli, it is like Kalulu fans are singing the refrain of this song, every time a marketing pic comes out, like all together in this. |DD; {sing it along with certain bombs 8DD} And yep, twins ftw.

You realize that when you fight with someone in war, your connection with him or her is going to be really strong? Not surprising it occured really.

This is no high school crush, this is true unyielding love

Yeah. This is loyalty and devotion at its loveliest.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by mngafan

I think that all 3 characters got a decent number of scenes together with lelouch. I don't see how one got less development than another. As a cluclu fan, I'm pretty satisfied with what we got of c.c x lelouch from R2, and the code geass series as a whole.

It was not so much of the "development", it is what you deduce from each development.
And i am sorry but allow me to still-lol, about the kiss scene, because that is kinda a romantic-conclusion according to my standards. And frankly, it was either gonna be::

a) Lelouch keeping his gangsta-mask and be all "oh hai, mai buddy Kallen, sayonara" and just kiss her back cause ' {and that still won't mean he won't care about her, he just has to keep the mask to push her away}

b) Lelouch suppresing his feelings towards Kallen because he has to maintain his status as emperor, thus that leading him to "...shhh" that still drives Kallen away.

Um, i am willing to drive to the second highway, because material are gas to KallenxLelouch gangsta-cars. ||DD;
Seriously, it is certainly not the first. I say, it is something in the middle leaning to b). And that is not interpretation, it is what was presented within the show, along with materials supporting it. So excuse me, but i do not think this is much "to each POV".

@Nobody:: I never said that Shirlulu is not great in its own aspects. It is just, that Shirley is more supporting that one. And crap, had Sunrise not pulled so much tragedy-air towards her, we might had have seen something more, but alas.

@Cosmic Eagle:: There was a connection before-hand, because with this logic, Lakshata would have gotten it on with Ougi, Tamaki with C.C and so on.
I'm sorry, but if i were Kallen i would look to cover my ass not to get pawned by Lancelot and not spending my time topping Lelouch or drink my milk-shake and get the jealous-pants because he hangs out with pizza-women and stuff. And Lelouch, telling her, all these teasing jokes too. {two sided ftw! 8D}
These things, do not happen every-day in the land of rebellion-war. It's not butterflies and rainbows.
--------------------
From Gundam romance thread, redirected. {dammit, the romance in Geass, is like diseassoo lol}

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Let's not go into that here. |DD;
And it is not like "got Lelouch", because he is dead, it is more like "Lelouch responsed mutual feelings to girl {?} ? 8D

Originally Posted by narona

It's not the opinion of everyone, let's not talk about it here, but I don't see that mutual feelings line as what the kalulu think it is, and many people are like that. Nor that I don't forget that no one ever gave me any proof of who wrote that in/for that mag.

I have the scan of the magazine, read again what i wrote . I was not asking for scans. But thanks anyway, I asked for it many times and never got the right answer. I want the name of the Author of that article, not an assumed name, a visual proof (so not only someone claiming something) like "article wrote by ****" or "infos provied by *****" And I never got that, just got not real answers and what I see as sarcasms.

ETA: Can someone provide the scan and the name of the "author" of this goddamn mutual-line again you guys? And the translation of it? {i am tired to do the search again among the pages |DD;}

[Lie]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

ETA: Can someone provide the scan and the name of the "author" of this goddamn mutual-line again you guys? And the translation of it? {i am tired to do the search again among the pages |DD;}

There is no "author" for a single line.
Its impossible to know who wrote it.
The booklet is a compilation of interviews and episode summaries from the staff.
Summary + staff interview for episode where they talk about this or that.
Kalulu fangroup has the scan: http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...et_turn_22.jpg
There is no author of this one episode summary asking for it is rediculous.
A compilation work has many authors at least.
You're not going to find Turn 22 summary written by Yoshi and Mario.
And are we still arguing over this?
Its a line in an episode summary.
The poem is far more canon and far more important than this.
2ch = poem wars.
AS = !!!I don't accept this line one line about kissing!!!
If you are this taken aback by him possibly kissing her, I don't understand why every single other line that may imply Lelouch > Kallen hasn't been beaten senseless by the "who wrote it" brigade.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Lie

There is no "author" for a single line.
Its impossible to know who wrote it.
The booklet is a compilation of interviews and episode summaries from the staff.
Summary + staff interview for episode where they talk about this or that.
Kalulu fangroup has the scan: http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...et_turn_22.jpg
There is no author of this one episode summary asking for it is rediculous.
A compilation work has many authors at least.
You're not going to find Turn 22 summary written by Yoshi and Mario.
And are we still arguing over this?
Its a line in an episode summary.
The poem is far more canon and far more important than this.
2ch = poem wars.
AS = !!!I don't accept this line one line about kissing!!!
If you are this taken aback by him possibly kissing her, I don't understand why every single other line that may imply Lelouch > Kallen hasn't been beaten senseless by the "who wrote it" brigade.

That was not me asking, i just brought the quote here, so there won't be a ruckus on Gundam thread.
I don't know if it is ridiculous asking for something like the "author of an episode summary" but it is certainly something i have never come across before to be honest.
Come to think of it, KallenxLelouch-aftermath, has made me come across a lot of peculiar things. Oh well, live and learn. |DDD;

And btw, the poem is important but that mutual-kiss line is equally important because it clearly describes Lelouch's feelings at that moment, while in the poem, it is more of underlines.

[Levy]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

And btw, the poem is important but that mutual-kiss line is equally important because it clearly describes Lelouch's feelings at that moment, while in the poem, it is more of underlines.

I think the line actually weights more than the poem. The poem - we have understood that there is a peculiar use of words in there, no need to start the japanese lesson again - was anyway Kallen's word. A neutral comment is a more an external view on the matter.
Anyway, if you say it's less canon than the poem, Lie...
I though it was more a b/w thing with stuff being canon or non-canon.
for example, PDs, booklets and interviews are canon while the novels are not, right?
Sound episodes, for example, I still haven't understood how they listed.

ah, and I fail to get the ZOMG-scandal in asking if there's a named author for an article and bored to the bone by 2ch, btw.....

[Lie]

Originally Posted by Levy

I think the line actually weights more than the poem. The poem - we have understood that there is a peculiar use of words in there, no need to start the japanese lesson again - was anyway Kallen's word. A neutral comment is a more an external view on the matter.
Anyway, if you say it's less canon than the poem, Lie...
I though it was more a b/w thing with stuff being canon or non-canon.
for example, PDs, booklets and interviews are canon while the novels are not, right?
Sound episodes, for example, I still haven't understood how they listed.

ah, and I fail to get the ZOMG-scandal in asking if there's a named author for an article and bored to the bone by 2ch, btw.....

There is just too much lost in translation for the poem apperantely.
Some canon is black and white, some isn't.
Novels are AU as they introduce plot altering elements or alterations that are unnatural to the characters.
The SEs are crack.
The PDs are canon but a lot of them have been fanservice crack.
Interviews are a trick, they are canon but they are also just opinions by the staff.
Some interviews are about what was meant by a scene, some interviews are "what I thought of this scene".
The booklet can be argued either way.
Its interviews about the scenes with summaries of the episodes that go along with them.
I consider it canon because it doesn't introduce anything that's against the canon and the interviews are about the scenes from a "what we wanted" pov.
My english came off wrong.
Its not a scandal in asking for the author.
There simply is no "one" author.
There is an editor but I, nor anyone else, would know who exactly wrote the line.

aishiteru in the poem >>>>>>>>> the exchanging of kisses
I get this impression that the simple idea of them kissing each other scares people.