Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

And I'm not convinced there were. Not even a single grunt being shot directly or something like that. I'd be contradicting myself but I really wanted to see some casualties on TSAB side. Yet there weren't.

Fact: We know that there were gadget drones right in front of TSAB officers.

Now, you yourelf said that these gadgets react to threats. The TSAB personel would quallify as threats, which means they would attack.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

LOL, thanks for entertainment. I can come up with twisted examples of many things related to "good guys" too, do we need this?

No, but the car comparison was flawed, twisted and not needed either.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Until we see something actually happening to Vivio and/or Ginga I'm not so eager to say that Doc's going to treat them bad. Numbers don't complain at least.

Those same numbers carried a beaten up Ginga by her hair. I can excuse the beating her up, as I know Ginga would not come allong without a fight, but afterwards they did not gently load her in the case. They dragged her by her hair, now I don't know about you, but that's not a shining example of future treatment, nor an encouragement of what the rest of the TSAB faced.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

I really wonder how TSAB managed to dispose of all the conventional weapons present before the ban. It's very hard to believe that everybody gave them up voluntarily.

It's one of the issues that's still unknown. Possible explanations were extended political debates. Otherwise, it could have been achieved with blackmail/bribery/negotiations. "We have this very cool, very clean source of energy, medicine and weaponry. All you have to do to get it is give us your gun."

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Yeah, what happened to them? You don't know as well. I didn't see anybody hurt by the drones unless said person tried to damage them or not let them reach their goal actively.

Which should be... oh, everyone in the general area?

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

It will be hillarious if canon proves my point.

Yes, yes it would.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Can you be more specific in why you think such replies are problematic? It is a valid defense to say that your question does not have any bearing on whether our points are correct.

Quite simple, really. If the answer to the question "Why do you trust Jail so much?" is "Because nobody else is" it gives of the vibe that you do not have a specific view on this, and are merely playing the brick wall.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

You are going in the wrong direction. Try: The Inherent Skills are matching at least some of the abilities of even top ranked (ultra-rare) mages. This offers hope to the vast majority of people who aren't top-ranked mages (for example, the 95% below AAA ranks). This is potentially an equalizer equivalent to the Colt revolver! Definitely something worth pursuing.

Which is what terifies everyone. Magelike beings as powerfull as elite Mages of the bureau can be simply 'created' and seem to be as loyal to their creator as a familiar. Opening this kind of research and production could result in a decline back to the days of total warfrare.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Interesting points, but the idea of Vivio not being made by Scarlietti simply opens up another can of worms, starting with "Who made Vivio", leading to "If the Doctor didn't make her, why would he even know about a little girl who is his best hope for his plans."

Personally, my guess is that the Doctor made Vivio and maybe a few others, then lost her for a bit (maybe she was stolen by the TSAB?). Now he's reacquired.

Scaglieti seems to know a lot of things someone of his position should not know, why should Vivio be an exception? As for the 'who did create Vivio' that is still one of the questions, indeed. It could mean that there is a third party involved in this.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

The question's relevancy had not even been demonstrated, and answering it either way seems to only lead to a chance for ad hominems. However, to answer your question, I would believe that there is a significant possibility the doctor is not a mere criminal, but a revolutionary.

That's still a dodge! Quit the relevancy, you seem to think that Scaglieti is a 'good' person, now, do you think Scaglieti -with unknown agendas, goals, and violent methods- can be trusted with the fate of multiple worlds?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

1) That's a practical argument against the idea, not a moral one. Why is it moral that a commander (like Yamamoto after Midway) get away scot free (or just reassigned to a slightly less plum post) when his incompetence led to the un-necessary loss of his entire army?

I think this is a very very bad idea. Why? Because as Chaos said, it would lead to people blaming others to avoid death. When playing the blame-game, it always means that someone with the most political power, no matter how incompetent, will win, and therefore get scoth-free.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

How much information did they get due to their decisions? ZERO. If they had beaten their opponents to death, at the very least they'd have a clue as to what it takes to kill them. Further, they could have been more decisive and may have taken one hurt but alive. Instead, now they are all free.

It is reasonable to expect people that can do S-power shoots won't die lightly. There's little reason to hold back until they are unconscious, bleeding, and missing arms.

... I think this is the first time in this discussion I am fully agreeing with you.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

1) It is hard to believe no improvements will be made, even with that idiot Regius if he had been told about the diving abilities.[
2) Hayate made no improvements on her own base either. I don't see any improvements to deal with for example Heavy Barrel's S-level blasts. If they had something like that they might have held out better. For that matter, she should have left one of the aces there, as others have suggested. It is her own responsibility her HQ got flattened.

1) Regius has denied the Ground Forces funding for anti-AMF tactics and equipment for some time now, even with Scaglieti's gadgets. Someone who is that stupid will deny Hayate -who he sees as a criminal- the chance to even voice her opinion.
2) Hmm, true, though in Hayate's defence they did leave the best of the best they had in terms of defence (Zafira and Shamal) down there.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Well, it is not clear about that. In Ep1, she mentioned many things that she cannot do. This may be a result of all the machinery getting in the way. Time will tell.

That was because of her status as a rookie, just fres out of the academy. It had nothing to do with her IS whatsoever.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Why are you so confident of Subaru. By the time she was in a position to destroy Cinque, she was half destroyed herself. Had Cinque retreated actively under cover of her yellow shield to buy distance (a tactical error on her part, or a limitation, or a failure to understand a berserk target because this is her time with one?), she would have bought time for an additional attack that may well have disabled Subaru completely before she can finish closing. If she wasn't in berserk mode and thus not feeling any pain, she should have gone down about 2 Rumble Detonators ago.

The yellow shield was a full 360 degree barrier, most likely these are the 'turtle type' barriers. Powerfull defense, but no possible movement whatsoever.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Personally, it looks more like she's just calling them in to ensure positive control of the situation. You will notice they suffered no injuries worth talking about so the victory is likely an easy one. The forwards, by stretching themselves, temporarily confused Wendy and Novu, but I don't really see them winning. You will notice the forwards were actually looking to disengage.

Then explain the fear in her eyes as Subaru kept advancing. She's obviously afraid, but if she had a 100% chance of victory, why the fear?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Yet you couldn't seek one. It is clear some were hurt, but we can't identify a single killed. Why do you insist on sticking on crimes that you aren't even sure existed?

Likewise, why do you insist that there are zero fatalities when an enemy apears right on front of their face, or in half collapsed buildings? People could have been burried under that debris, people could have been shot to pieces by the drones who were about two metres away from them. Can you really say that drones who always went for the kill sudenly would just knock them out? If so, where are the unconcious bodies then? No bodies simply means we haven't seen them, not that they weren't there. It's a dual contradicting statement, I know, but it means that we can't be sure that there weren't any victims as much as we can be sure there were.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

He might have a claim to them on this basis as well.

Spoiler for Star Wars related section:

At risk of going into a brief tangent into a rusty subject, that's what Han Solo would say, but it is objectively incorrect. The Vong are really a much exaggerated threat. They are not a Galaxy invading power - the lot of them could fit into a single planet, which places some pretty hard limits on their real size, and they've got cute tricks but don't have any major performance superiorities. The critical points here then is simply mobilizational capacity - the Empire simply held and can mobilize a LOT more force than the NR ever could. The grand attack of the Vong on Coruscant had 20000-30000 ships IIRC (Star by Star). Those are not Star Destroyers - the Vong are arrayed like the NR with a high percentage of weak corvettes and frigates. The whole force might be 10 times the size of the 2500 ship (Cracken's Threat Dossier IIRC) New Republic Navy (which they struggled to bring up to ~10000 ships ships available for Coruscant), but is only a few Imperial Sector Groups (source: Imperial Sourcebook). Which means even local defenses will attrit the Vong to uselessness.

This is confirmed by the Vong's actions. Despite the fact their bioships are literally dying and they were running out of time, they were standing (note Vergere) there through the Old Republic, and then the Empire. Only in the New Republic era is the galactic government so crummy that they felt like invading.

I think you missed my point. Yuuzhan Vong are invisible to the force. Yuuzhan Vong inflitrtate the Empire, and kill the Emperor and Lord Vader. What happens? Nobody knows how they died, officers start blaming one another, become warlords, impirial structure falls apart and without a visible enemy they start killing eachother. Now the Yuuzhan Vong step in and whipe clean whatever is left.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Considering you had never even SEEN Scarletti and Vivio in the same frame, I don't know how you can immediately come to this conclusion.

Oh I don't know, calling her a tool might be an indication.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Nanoha and Fate are not as aware of this little runt's secrets as Scarlietti, so the conditions aren't even the same. In my analogy, it'd be comparing the actions of nations who don't even know your body has unobtanium and/or what its so good for versus the actions of nations that do. Besides, not being as nice as the really mushy Nanoha and Fate is a long way from evil.

And using her to further your own plans is a concerned parent?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

We aren't even sure whatever Scarlietti plans will even claim little Vivio's life. For all we really know all would happen is that she's imbued with The Power, she'd do what Scarlietti wants and .. she'd be living happily ever after with Scarlietti.

As a puppet. Nice life.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

If the mere crime of using someone as a tool is completely indefensible, why is Graham's use of Hayate so often forgiven?

I have never forgiven him for that, actually. I still find his punishment to be way too soft.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Who, the Rebel Alliance?

Yes. They are an imoral band of thugs who place themselves above the law, steal valuable recources, raid supplies, smuggle and avoid taxes...

The only thing that really seperates them from being truly 'evil' is that their enemy is simply apearing to be more so then they are.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I won't say that the Empire is a saint, and having not played this Empire-apologist game for over a year I'm really rusty. However, it is specifically stated only a very small minority of worlds (1 in 80) are substantially even influenced (Imperial Sourcebook). In the original A New Hope novelization, Alderaan was specifically stated to be an ammo dump for the Rebels, and it is clear throughout it is an anti-Imperial world led by a traitor. Plus it has ubershield (the observed performance of Alderaan's shield exceeds any other by orders of magnitude), so it has to be the standard for comparison.

1 in 80? Every single world in the imperial service faces the fear of forced drafting. Every single alien race in service of the Empire faces the fear of discrimination and -if they are physically capable- slavery.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

The ideas of over taxation due to overmilitarization ring hollow when one considers the power of the rich companies (quadrillions of credits, stated in the CSA Sourcebook) versus the price of Star Destroyers (3.88 billion, later further reduced to hundreds of millions of creds) and by extension other equipment and the number the NR claims they have (which my old group feels is substantially understated).

I never even touched taxation, actually.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Shamal and Zafira are only AA or so, which is good but not divinely or anything. They are clearly quite alive, so I find it likely those guys lived. Further, it is clear that Inherent Skills have variable power levels, so it is entirely possible to hold back.

They were AA specialized in defense. What's down there can easilly be much lower, and without a specialization in defense. Add to that they were facing drones, not numbers, and you have quite the chance that we have fatalities here.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

1) The Rebel Alliance had pretty much the entire official literature (which is almost all written from a Rebel point of view, and is in the tens or even hundreds of thousands of pages) to do what you said. Scarlietti had one minute so far. When given only a minute, the Rebels can be quite laughable themselves. For example, the Declaration of Rebellion cites one of the Emperor's crimes as "disbanding the Senate". That's fine, except the Declaration was about 2 years before ANH and the Emperor disbanded the Senate only in ANH!

Can you say, 'continuity error?' Heh, Star Wars is filled with those.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

2) Having gone through many chapters in the New Republic's go at nation-building, I can only weep at the "alternative" they offer even when viewing through a pro-NR lens. Based on the resources they can mobilize versus the resources the Empire can mobilize, the obvious conclusion is that they are barely a government at all, on the grounds they can't mobilize a thing. The sheer thinness of their ideas at racial equality was busted very quickly in Solo Command. By the time of the Yevethan Crisis, those wimpy soldiers can't even execute orders, leading to defeat. I understand that there's this new insect tribe up, another bunch of wimps that shouldn't even make the sector newspaper that is nevertheless causing trouble for the new Galactic Alliance (yes, the NR is DEAD in case you are even more out of date than I am). When you tack on the casualties they caused by inciting various Galactic Civil Wars and the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, versus the known casualties caused by Imperial reprisals, it is pretty clear that more people would probably be alive had the Empire gone on. Counting all the strife, many may even be happier.

There are people who would be more happy if the Empire had continued, actually (The first book of the Legacy of the Force even has someone say it to Wedge's face). However, as I said I doupt that they would have been more succesfull. They were, after all, defeated by these very same 'losers'

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

3) Scarlietti at least offered the alternative of peace (buying his tech) and his motivation. And all in one minute.

Did he actually say that? As far as I understand, he offered his motivation, made clear that he could very well have killed them, and then was off again.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Don't worry. Me too. It is why I'm participating.

Spoiler for Star Wars section:

Any Imperial apologist knows that it is a race, that given the way Star Wars writers write, their positions are in constant danger of being annihilated by official writers that can't think of writing any kind of Empire than a complete mass of black. The Massacre at Gwhatever (man, I'm really rusty, I use to remember this example by heart, anyway it involves Tarkin squashing some protesters with his ship) used to only have the Empire causing a few "dozen" casualties in the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook. Then one day the Star Wars website felt like changing it to a few hundred. Still, the battle is fun while it lasts.

At least this time, if my position lasts till Ep26 (just a few more weeks), I can rest assured no new evidence will come to decisively crush my position.

[/quote]

Hundreds? Hardly believeable. Asuming he landed in a standart Lambda class shuttle (If it's good enough for the emperor, it's good enough for Tarkin) He could have squashed about a dozen protesters, maybe two-dozen if they were packed together. >_<

I'm an Empire fan myself. Not to the point where I say they were good guys, but to the point where I say that Palpatine did do what he promised: He did deliver a safe and stable society. Other's simply didn't like how that stable society was run.

[Kha]

Hmm... I see BLUECHEESIUM... But it's all about things I've little grasp of.

*joins Chaos in waiting for bombardment to stop*

[Fabien]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Now, you yourelf said that these gadgets react to threats. The TSAB personel would quallify as threats

Hardly. They were too busy fleeing.

Originally Posted by Keroko

No, but the car comparison was flawed, twisted and not needed either.

It was in response to the sentence "Jail could have killed them, but didn't".

Originally Posted by Keroko

Those same numbers carried a beaten up Ginga by her hair. I can excuse the beating her up, as I know Ginga would not come allong without a fight, but afterwards they did not gently load her in the case.

They had to do it as quickly as possible.

[Nightengale]

I'm not into the whole Vivio/Ginga discussion thing. What happens to them is something purely speculative at this point, though it's safe to say they won't be as happy as they were with TSAB, for better or worse from a technical point of view.

Originally Posted by Keroko

That's still a dodge! Quit the relevancy, you seem to think that Scaglieti is a 'good' person, now, do you think Scaglieti -with unknown agendas, goals, and violent methods- can be trusted with the fate of multiple worlds?

Why fate of multiple worlds? Putting aside his unknown agendas, his current agenda is simple, one of an unethical researcher and salesmen. He wants people to appreciate his line of technology, buy them and stuff. And despite unethical points, his technology does have its benefits in good hands so long as the good side are willing to monopolize them and put away with ethicalness.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Likewise, why do you insist that there are zero fatalities when an enemy apears right on front of their face, or in half collapsed buildings? People could have been burried under that debris, people could have been shot to pieces by the drones who were about two metres away from them. Can you really say that drones who always went for the kill sudenly would just knock them out? If so, where are the unconcious bodies then? No bodies simply means we haven't seen them, not that they weren't there. It's a dual contradicting statement, I know, but it means that we can't be sure that there weren't any victims as much as we can be sure there were.

Zero fatalities may be stretching it a little, but Uno had clearly mentioned that their primary objective was to win it as bloodlessly as possible, which means that while they invoke collateral damage, they're really trying to avoid deaths. Jail doesn't care for his Drones since they're nothing but support-junks anyway, so he can set them to non-lethal MAGICAL damage rather than death-rays. And the autonomous can't be controlled thing cannot be used since by the end of the episode, they were no longer lethal. TSAB was evacuating while they were flying around, doing nothing.

I believe there are accidental deaths, (( debris, fire, whatever )) but like said, from what Uno said, they were doing their best to avoid direct killings, and from what we saw, they mostly did just that.

Originally Posted by Keroko

I have never forgiven him for that, actually. I still find his punishment to be way too soft.

I hate going into the Graham argument, but...

Even though his method was something that might had saved the lives of who knows how many TSAB mages and innocent people in the decades and centuries at the simple cost of one girl's life? If it had been anyone other than Hayate (( like the typical evil Meister before her )), would you still say the same?

And no one, I mean no one could've predicted Hayate being able to remove the Defense Program and save herself from the Book's corrupted control. It had never happened even once throughout the Book of Darkness's history of book completion, as far as TSAB knows.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Whatever you want to say about the Doctor's morality, it is difficult to deny he's probably the Top Expert in this field at the moment

He's the only practioner in the field that that we know of, that says nothing about the extent of his skills compared to any others.

I don't see any sign of serious failure so far. In fact all indications suggest that the Doctor has successfully resolved the reliability problem.

We've seen 12 successes with the sentoukijin technology. While it looks like a lot, have you thought that behind every success there could be 10 or more failures?

Personally, my guess is that the Doctor made Vivio and maybe a few others, then lost her for a bit (maybe she was stolen by the TSAB?). Now he's reacquired.

In that case, she was one of his most important creations. Kinda interesting we saw virtually none of his concern about her until he relocated her. She couldn't have been stolen by the TSAB, they wouldn't be dumb enough to ship her around in a groccery truck. One way or another, either another illegal group made Vivio or stole her from the Doctor. If we want to keep from introducing new parties unneccessarily, my money's on either another of the Client's projects or a Saint Church black-ops deniable operation that created her. That means either he's willing to backstab his Client for his own agenda, or he's got a mole so deep in the Church he can know things that Carim won't tell Hayate. Either way, that implies he has extensive intellegence resources. That would also be what he needs to know if some other underground group made Vivio.

Spoiler for Degression:

1) That's a practical argument against the idea, not a moral one.

And that's not good enough for you? I suppose if a general had every advantage and still lost with heavy casualties, then yes, execute him. But what if he had been denied the resources to secure his territory, denied the ability to move forces to a more favourable position by his superior? What if that superior is hanging him out to dry to keep people from thinking about his own failure as a commander? Do you still think it's so easy to execute a general for failing badly? Would you like to execute the general after they tally the death count, or would you like to have a court martial where he lays the blame at your doorstep?

1) Stalin's Eastern Front was the Far East Military District, facing Manchuria. You must mean the Western.

Yes, the Western Front. Silly of me.

Considering the poor state of the army, it wouldn't have mattered whether he was executing generals for failure or not.

It would, as I said, things like that tend to make the remaining generals less eager to take risks to win. Also, Stalin would have to execute himself for placing his forces in unwinnable positions too. Instead he would rather execute anyone who might want to point that out.

It is a backup scheme, but assuming they've been doing promotions right, substitutions of multiple commanders with their deputies will cause a significant drop in the ability of the command staff.

It'd still be more effective than having absolutely no command staff when the enemy is rolling in on your position.

How much information did they get due to their decisions? ZERO. If they had beaten their opponents to death, at the very least they'd have a clue as to what it takes to kill them.

Why is it so easy for you to demand that they kill? They're not killers, they've been trained to arrest criminals whenever possible. Look at how the battles went in ep12, did it look neccessary to kill anyone at the time? Possible future events are irrelavant. Might as well kill a baby to prevent him from becoming a bloodthirsty dictator in the future if you think like that.
And they did use heavy attacks on Deci and Quattro when they felt it was neccessary, how could they have any idea Trei was able to save them with Ride Impluse? And yes, I agree Vita should have acted more decisively after Sein dove away with Lutecia.

Scarlietti at least offered the alternative of peace (buying his tech) and his motivation.

Oh, things weren't peaceful before he made his announcement? Nor are they likely to improve for any period of time if events happen as he desires.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Fabien

Hardly. They were too busy fleeing.

Were they? When?

Originally Posted by Fabien

It was in response to the sentence "Jail could have killed them, but didn't".

I know, but the comparison was severly flawed, as Scaglitie did cause tons of damage, kidnapped a girl, and did not state clearly as to the why of everything.

Originally Posted by Fabien

They had to do it as quickly as possible.

Then they were not doing their job well, because grabbing someone by the hair is not the quickest way to lift them up. This was an act of cruelty, no more no less.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Why fate of multiple worlds? Putting aside his unknown agendas, his current agenda is simple, one of an unethical researcher and salesmen. He wants people to appreciate his line of technology, buy them and stuff. And despite unethical points, his technology does have its benefits in good hands so long as the good side are willing to monopolize them and put away with ethicalness.

Why? Because that was the question that was being dodged. If I recall, it was being asked towards the whole "Scaglieti takes over the TSAB" theory.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Zero fatalities may be stretching it a little, but Uno had clearly mentioned that their primary objective was to win it as bloodlessly as possible, which means that while they invoke collateral damage, they're really trying to avoid deaths. Jail doesn't care for his Drones since they're nothing but support-junks anyway, so he can set them to non-lethal MAGICAL damage rather than death-rays. And the autonomous can't be controlled thing cannot be used since by the end of the episode, they were no longer lethal. TSAB was evacuating while they were flying around, doing nothing.

I believe there are accidental deaths, (( debris, fire, whatever )) but like said, from what Uno said, they were doing their best to avoid direct killings, and from what we saw, they mostly did just that.

Finally! Compelling arguments! Now, if Uno has said that, then there is no question about the doctors atempts. Whew, one problem solved.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

I hate going into the Graham argument, but...

Even though his method was something that might had saved the lives of who knows how many TSAB mages and innocent people in the decades and centuries at the simple cost of one girl's life? If it had been anyone other than Hayate (( like the typical evil Meister before her )), would you still say the same?

And no one, I mean no one could've predicted Hayate being able to remove the Defense Program and save herself from the Book's corrupted control. It had never happened even once throughout the Book of Darkness's history of book completion, as far as TSAB knows.

Oh, you misunderstand, I can understand his actions -and to be quite honest, I doupt I would have acted differntly if I were in his shoes, and had his experiences- I simply don't like the way how he put an innocent girl in danger like that.

... Wait, I just realized, he never really had a choice. The book chooses its master. >_<

Statement toward Graham withdrawn!

[Fabien]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

If the mere crime of using someone as a tool is completely indefensible, why is Graham's use of Hayate so often forgiven?

Graham and the Volkenritter were forgiven for their respective crimes because everything ended well.

BTW, in A's, the Volkenritter were ready to do anything to achieve their goal, but decided not to kill anyone. Kinda reminds me of some scientist with a name like pasta...

[Fabien]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Originally Posted by Fabien
Hardly. They were too busy fleeing.

Were they? When?

Episode 16, 16:30.

Originally Posted by Keroko

I know, but the comparison was severly flawed, as Scaglitie did cause tons of damage, kidnapped a girl, and did not state clearly as to the why of everything.

I didn't try to compare the situations, I merely said that the choice between killing or not killing, is a choice we make everyday.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Fact: We know that there were gadget drones right in front of TSAB officers.

Now, you yourelf said that these gadgets react to threats. The TSAB personel would quallify as threats, which means they would attack.

That doesn't necessarily mean they'd kill them. No one said they won't attack.

Those same numbers carried a beaten up Ginga by her hair. I can excuse the beating her up, as I know Ginga would not come allong without a fight, but afterwards they did not gently load her in the case. They dragged her by her hair, now I don't know about you, but that's not a shining example of future treatment, nor an encouragement of what the rest of the TSAB faced.

Well, she's already unconscious, for one thing, so at least she didn't feel a thing. It is hard to be cruel when the target isn't even there to feel it. It might also reflect contempt. Cinque probably thought she had an opponent and so called in some help to ensure her win. Then it turned out Ginga was knocked out in one blow. That may also explain why she was stunned when Subaru survived her Thermal Detonators.

Which should be... oh, everyone in the general area?

Well, but you still can't blame the drones. Armies at war. Besides, lots of the TSAB wimps were running.

Quite simple, really. If the answer to the question "Why do you trust Jail so much?" is "Because nobody else is" it gives of the vibe that you do not have a specific view on this, and are merely playing the brick wall.

Why does it matter whether a person has a specific view on this? Wouldn't it be a person who has a view that's more bound to stick to his position at all costs, while a person with none is more fluid?

Which is what terifies everyone. Magelike beings as powerfull as elite Mages of the bureau can be simply 'created' and seem to be as loyal to their creator as a familiar. Opening this kind of research and production could result in a decline back to the days of total warfrare.

It terrifies the TSAB. But that's understandable, because among other things, the TSAB is In Power. When you are in power, you want everyone else to be as weak as possible. Anyway, why is it that you assume their love is that of a familiar, rather than to a father? I see opportunities here.

Scaglieti seems to know a lot of things someone of his position should not know, why should Vivio be an exception? As for the 'who did create Vivio' that is still one of the questions, indeed. It could mean that there is a third party involved in this.

Let's not try and add more to that list, then, shall we. It is probably simpler so far to say that he might really have made Vivio.

That's still a dodge! Quit the relevancy, you seem to think that Scaglieti is a 'good' person, now, do you think Scaglieti -with unknown agendas, goals, and violent methods- can be trusted with the fate of multiple worlds?

I don't have enough unfiltered information to even decide whether the TSAB really should be "trusted with the fate of multiple worlds", and you don't either. Why do you think I know enough about Scarlietti to be certain. However, he interests me enough to grant him a hearing. Not really trying to avoid an answer (even though either answer sounds like an invitation to ad hominems), but really, to be frank, I don't know myself.

I think this is a very very bad idea. Why? Because as Chaos said, it would lead to people blaming others to avoid death. When playing the blame-game, it always means that someone with the most political power, no matter how incompetent, will win, and therefore get scoth-free.

This is a risk that arises if you ever want to seriously punish anybody when they lose. Somehow, not punishing them ain't the way to go either.

1) Regius has denied the Ground Forces funding for anti-AMF tactics and equipment for some time now, even with Scaglieti's gadgets. Someone who is that stupid will deny Hayate -who he sees as a criminal- the chance to even voice her opinion.
2) Hmm, true, though in Hayate's defence they did leave the best of the best they had in terms of defence (Zafira and Shamal) down there.

1) Shamal's strength is support, not defence.
2) Without an attacker, a defense can be overwhelmed with time and numbers. Only attack provides a way out.
3) I can't believe Regius doesn't even have a staff member that might point such things out...

That was because of her status as a rookie, just fres out of the academy. It had nothing to do with her IS whatsoever.

Actually, the manga states she has a few years of experience already.

The yellow shield was a full 360 degree barrier, most likely these are the 'turtle type' barriers. Powerfull defense, but no possible movement whatsoever.

Possibility. But here, Cinque's defense is really movement. She's a medium range attacker, and Subaru is not exactly going very fast. Just dodge it, get in two more attacks (one as she flies past, 2nd as she turns around to engage or continues to chase the sisters). If it is between movement and a solid block, a solid block is a mistake.

Then explain the fear in her eyes as Subaru kept advancing. She's obviously afraid, but if she had a 100% chance of victory, why the fear?

In that paragraph, I'm talking about Cinque vs Ginga. Anyway I can see the fear in Cinque's eyes when Subaru closed like a zombie. It is actually one of the better chunks of the episode. I actually felt sorry for Cinque at that point. It is kind of funny how similar Cinque's and Subaru's thoughts are in that fractional moment, to protect the sisters that are so important to them.

Likewise, why do you insist that there are zero fatalities when an enemy apears right on front of their face, or in half collapsed buildings? People could have been burried under that debris, people could have been shot to pieces by the drones who were about two metres away from them. Can you really say that drones who always went for the kill sudenly would just knock them out? If so, where are the unconcious bodies then? No bodies simply means we haven't seen them, not that they weren't there. It's a dual contradicting statement, I know, but it means that we can't be sure that there weren't any victims as much as we can be sure there were.

Nightinggale put it very well, so I'd cancel my own answer, though I must say I must wonder about the concept of Magical rays when their main thing is their AMF. I can see them adjusting their power or using stun, though.

Spoiler for Star Wars stuff:

I think you missed my point. Yuuzhan Vong are invisible to the force. Yuuzhan Vong inflitrtate the Empire, and kill the Emperor and Lord Vader. What happens? Nobody knows how they died, officers start blaming one another, become warlords, impirial structure falls apart and without a visible enemy they start killing eachother. Now the Yuuzhan Vong step in and whipe clean whatever is left.

The Yuuzhan Vong has some pretty nice infiltration skills. However, to say that they would just infiltrate the Empire to the extent they can kill the Emperor and Lord Vader at once is pretty unsubstantiated.

The other problem is the simple disparity in remaining forces. The disparity b/w the old Imperial forces and the New Republic forces is so great that it is a running joke. Even scattered and disorganized, if every Moff would at least engage the Vong as they marched into the sector, they would take chunks out of what is a very limited power until the whole mess gets stopped.

Oh I don't know, calling her a tool might be an indication.

And using her to further your own plans is a concerned parent?

As a puppet. Nice life.

Why do you assume the worst. Can't you have plans for someone and still otherwise wish them well? I don't like Graham but I'm still willing to give him that.

I have never forgiven him for that, actually. I still find his punishment to be way too soft.

Wait you changed your mind after this! Well, just go back to the original argument. If you now accept that given enough potential good, the sacrifice of a girl as a tool is justifiable, then you must accept the possibility that Scarlietti's goal is big enough that it will justify the sacrifice of Vivio (and again, we aren't even sure said sacrifice demands her life).

Spoiler for Star Wars stuff:

1 in 80? Every single world in the imperial service faces the fear of forced drafting. Every single alien race in service of the Empire faces the fear of discrimination and -if they are physically capable- slavery.

Official figure. Anyway, forced drafting is a sign of an ability to mobilize resources for the galactic good, so that's not much. Besides, given the ridiculously low numbers the Rebels cite for Imperial Army numbers, only a small fraction of the population is likely to be drafted. Racism, given all the signs of it remaining in NR times, seems to be a problem prevalent to the Star Wars galaxy. It is only suppressed to a greater or lesser extent without ever being solved.

They were AA specialized in defense. What's down there can easilly be much lower, and without a specialization in defense. Add to that they were facing drones, not numbers, and you have quite the chance that we have fatalities here.

The drones aren't that powerful to begin with. If it isn't for the AMF they'd be cut down like flies.

Spoiler for Star Wars stuff:

Can you say, 'continuity error?' Heh, Star Wars is filled with those.

I was going for suspension of disbelief.

There are people who would be more happy if the Empire had continued, actually (The first book of the Legacy of the Force even has someone say it to Wedge's face). However, as I said I doupt that they would have been more succesfull. They were, after all, defeated by these very same 'losers'

Personally, I believe the Rebel victory was so much tinged by luck that against another opponent, the Empire will be much more successful.

Did he actually say that? As far as I understand, he offered his motivation, made clear that he could very well have killed them, and then was off again.

IIRC, yes, he did offer his tech.

Spoiler for Star Wars stuff:

Hundreds? Hardly believeable. Asuming he landed in a standart Lambda class shuttle (If it's good enough for the emperor, it's good enough for Tarkin) He could have squashed about a dozen protesters, maybe two-dozen if they were packed together. >_<

I always thought he came down in a Carrack or something.

I'm an Empire fan myself. Not to the point where I say they were good guys, but to the point where I say that Palpatine did do what he promised: He did deliver a safe and stable society. Other's simply didn't like how that stable society was run.

Well, that's almost my position too. They aren't saints, not even close, but they are arguably better than the NR. Actually, that admittedly says more about the NR than the GE...

[DmonHiro]

Sure, the end does not justify the means, but I still can't se Scag as "the big evil". Sure, he's "a little" mad, but what mad scientist isn't ? I still say he could have had the numbers go in, weapons blazing and kill everyone under A rank at least. By choosing not to kill, he has at least proved he's not a sociopath. So far, none of the Nanohaverse "villans" were really evil. Precia lost her mind along with her daugther, her only final goal beeing to revive her, even if it meant stepping on dead bodys to do it. I do wonder what would have happene to her had she succeded. Would she have reverted to who she was before the accident? Would she have felt regret over what she had done? Would she have accepted Fate as a second daughter? Guess we'll never know. As for Graham, he did what he felt was necessary to save the world. He DID feel a lot of regret over what he was doing, but from what he knew, that was the only way to finish the book of darkness once and for all (not reall, since his plan did have some bugs, like Crono said). So all and all, while Scag is the villan(?) I don't belive he's just SOOOOOOOO evil that he just felt like creating weapons and cousing chaos.

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Fact: We know that there were gadget drones right in front of TSAB officers.

Now, you yourelf said that these gadgets react to threats. The TSAB personel would quallify as threats, which means they would attack.

Fact: No TSAB grunts shown attacking the Drones, only fleeing. And no Drones shooting at them.

The only arguable moment could be the aerial battle not shown in details. (I'm even showing the examples not favorable for me but it's better then wait until you bring them up first ). Still no bodies shown so unless in the next episode there's some kind of funeral I'll keep saying that nobody died.

Those same numbers carried a beaten up Ginga by her hair. I can excuse the beating her up, as I know Ginga would not come allong without a fight, but afterwards they did not gently load her in the case. They dragged her by her hair, now I don't know about you, but that's not a shining example of future treatment, nor an encouragement of what the rest of the TSAB faced.

They didn't have time to be especially gentle.

It's one of the issues that's still unknown. Possible explanations were extended political debates. Otherwise, it could have been achieved with blackmail/bribery/negotiations. "We have this very cool, very clean source of energy, medicine and weaponry. All you have to do to get it is give us your gun."

Or TSAB used force.

Which should be... oh, everyone in the general area?

Yeah, sure, everyone there put up resistance against drones, lol. 90% of those carrying the weapons simply wimped out, if not all of them. Aside from RF6 members I saw nobody fighting (bar the abovementioned aerial fight).

Quite simple, really. If the answer to the question "Why do you trust Jail so much?" is "Because nobody else is" it gives of the vibe that you do not have a specific view on this, and are merely playing the brick wall.

I was always on his side, the thing that nobody believed his words just made me post some support.

Which is what terifies everyone. Magelike beings as powerfull as elite Mages of the bureau can be simply 'created' and seem to be as loyal to their creator as a familiar. Opening this kind of research and production could result in a decline back to the days of total warfrare.

Come on, every significant invention can be used for evil purposes - is this a reason to ban it? Don't make me laugh. I can get into a car and kill tens or maybe hundreds of people before I'm stopped - let's stop the production of cars then? It's society's problems if a powerful tool would lead to total warfare, not the scientists'.

That's still a dodge! Quit the relevancy, you seem to think that Scaglieti is a 'good' person, now, do you think Scaglieti -with unknown agendas, goals, and violent methods- can be trusted with the fate of multiple worlds?

This point again *facepalms* He's not asking for that OMG, the fate of the worlds could appear in the hands of the possible users of his technology, but not the Doc's himself, where does he say he needs it?

Likewise, why do you insist that there are zero fatalities when an enemy apears right on front of their face, or in half collapsed buildings? People could have been burried under that debris, people could have been shot to pieces by the drones who were about two metres away from them. Can you really say that drones who always went for the kill sudenly would just knock them out? If so, where are the unconcious bodies then? No bodies simply means we haven't seen them, not that they weren't there. It's a dual contradicting statement, I know, but it means that we can't be sure that there weren't any victims as much as we can be sure there were.

N/C

Oh I don't know, calling her a tool might be an indication.

And using her to further your own plans is a concerned parent?

As a puppet. Nice life.

I'm not trying to prove that Doc is a saint, but there's no evidence to state that Vivio will be treated badly. Probably not as good as by RF6 but the goal might be worth it.

They were AA specialized in defense. What's down there can easilly be much lower, and without a specialization in defense. Add to that they were facing drones, not numbers, and you have quite the chance that we have fatalities here.

Actually drones have far weaker weaponry than those used by Numbers. And they are not programmed to kill on sight, where did you get such idea?

Originally Posted by Keroko

Were they? When?

Rewatch the episode (if we're talking about the same things).

Then they were not doing their job well, because grabbing someone by the hair is not the quickest way to lift them up. This was an act of cruelty, no more no less.

O RLY? How would you do it the quickest way then?

Why? Because that was the question that was being dodged. If I recall, it was being asked towards the whole "Scaglieti takes over the TSAB" theory.

It was dodged because the question is out of place and actually wrong.

Finally! Compelling arguments! Now, if Uno has said that, then there is no question about the doctors atempts. Whew, one problem solved.

You mean you've argued all this time without knowing Uno's words of them trying to minimze the casualties?

[Fabien]

Let's imagine that, before episode 16, the TSAB has learnt Jail's whereabouts, and they're ready to arrest him. Their storm his lab, trying not to kill anyone, but fighting those who resist, and not caring much about keeping the building itself neat and tidy.

Well, Jail did the same thing.

[octoberasian]

Originally Posted by Burner of Anime

Noticed something nasty from the caps and the clip.

Spoiler:

The Numbers literally 'Disarmed' Ginga.

Her lower left arm was stripped to it's metal skeleton in the screengrab.

If nothing else, the latest in the series isn't shy in displaying critical and crippling injury.

Wait a minute.... I rewatched this episode four times.

Did they just simply remove the glove?

Or... did they do something much worst? Like, forcefully amputate it?

I know there was a lot of blood loss from Ginga from the head down. She's a cyborg and all, but... oh god why?! >_< Let's hope she's still alive in the next several episodes. T_T

I may have to rewatch it a 5th time or when a better RAW appears.

[Fabien]

Originally Posted by octoberasian

Did they just simply remove the glove?

Or... did they do something much worst? Like, forcefully amputate it?

That's not a nice thing to do, but then again, giving her a new hand shouldn't be a big deal, especially for our Doctor.
After all, right now on Earth, technology allows to transplant a hand. So in Midchilda, I suppose it's not even remotely difficult.

[Fabien]

Originally Posted by octoberasian

did they do something much worst? Like, forcefully amputate it?
[...] but... oh god why?!

It might have been the best way to disarm her without damaging her too much.

Anyway, a better raw is definitely needed.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

O RLY? How would you do it the quickest way then?

Somewhere where you can support her at the center of gravity is probably best. Hair is a lousy method. Piggyback is a intuitively available alternative.

[Retsoor]

I'm glad Zest and co. have at least temporarily broken free from their lesser and not-so-intimidating screen presence in the series, since their group is the most interesting to me in the current part of the Nanoha franchise.

Agito the elf girl of small proportions has become more fleshed out and likeable, and we even got to see a nice scene with her being terrified that because of her pride her saviour chopped part of his own life for her sake. Mmm, unconscious elf girl...

Zest has restored my faith in the production team in that a taciturn, no-nonsense manly man with lolis can't possibly be just another chump in the grand scheme of things. The man has etiquette, wisdom and resolve. Now they should enlighten us on his background, for more effect. He seems to have a beef with where the Army is going, and going with the good Doctor only because their paths are more or less the same to date.

It's just unfortunate that now they revealed his special attack drains his life, he's bound to die in a kamikaze attack somewhere if he's not backstabbed. Maybe against the Einherjar, whatever the hell it is. I was kind of hoping he'd get to spend his old days Graham-style, on a loliranch with Lutecia, Agito and Vita (you know she was swept off her feet, both figuratively and literally, by his manly charm), at least until the partyvan got wind of it.

However, before that happens, I hope he'll get to shine properly. Not to take anything off Vita, but Zest wasn't even winded after his Jesusattack. Not that a manly man would ever be out of breath of course, but still.

Speaking of his background, maybe we'll hear more of it in the next episode, as Signum, avoiding the after day cleanup, sneaks off to have hot sex with him, seeing as how they flirted shamelessly with all their nonchalant flying in the toposphere earlier.

As for Lutecia, she remains more or less the same, in both good and bad. Someone give that girl a slinky or something for Christsakes, she can't get any less apathetic as it is.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Hmm... Strada revealed all 3 modes... Well thats no fun.

At least the 3rd mode gave it justice by finally using some Lightning-base attacks

[Burner of Anime]

Originally Posted by Aaron008R

Jail: I AM YOUR FATHER!
Ginga: NOOOOOOOOOO~!

But we all now how that went...

Wow, someone lost a hand in that one as well

Wait a minute.... I rewatched this episode four times.

Did they just simply remove the glove?

Or... did they do something much worst? Like, forcefully amputate it?

I know there was a lot of blood loss from Ginga from the head down. She's a cyborg and all, but... oh god why?! >_< Let's hope she's still alive in the next several episodes. T_T

If she was as difficult to take down as Subaru without an IS boost, removing the dangerous bits would have probably been the most expedient method of stopping her. Remember, her melee skills are better than her sister.

As for the 3 Numbers not facing her head on, I'd say that the sudden appearance of reinforcements mean that more are on the way. I doubt all 3 were confident enough to stop the Terminator at full burn with her backup a few minutes away.

[Meophist]

Alright, let me continue about Scagaletti.

It seems that his only wish is for his research and products to be legal. He wants to help people, specifically individuals. He has the power to bring back the dead and believes the world can benefit from it. However, the TSAB sees this as illegal research, and Scagaletti's clients(incl. Erio + his parents) are suffering from this. Thus, the TSAB is center to this problem, holding the technology and, in Scagalett's view, human advancement back.

I don't believe he attacked the TSAB as a show of power. His position is not to promote war machines. He wanted to expose the ineffectiveness of the TSAB. It didn't matter if the TSAB was really ineffective or not, but he wanted to build the perception that it was. Using this, he could soon get the public to be against the TSAB. I think this was his plan. It's rather long-term, so the attack of this episode would only be the beginning.

As for the sentoukijin, it's currently difficult to tell how much of them are human and how much of them are machine. There's certainly a large human element to them, even with the Numbers, evident by the fact their vastly differing personalities and capabilities.

Particularly, for the Nakajima sisters, they seem to grow like normal. They both have traits from their parents so that's some evidence that they were born rather than made. On the other hand, Subaru's interaction with Mach and Blitz Caliber makes me think that it might not be the case. Regardless, I don't believe Teana, or Caro or Erio for that matter, is aware of Subaru's being part-machine(until now anyways).

In any case, I don't believe that Scagaletti can simply make Numbers at will. If he could, I would think he would've made more. There's probably something that's stopping him from doing just that. Sentoukijin aren't just battle robots, they seem to be quite a bit more than that.